Up to date information on DAZ Studio 4.8 --that's useable -- Myth or Reality?
CartoonMike
Posts: 31
There's something to be said about sticking with an app through multiple versions, the changes the app goes through you just learn and move on. Reading/viewing older tutorials and DAZ "documents" you can mentally transfer your new knowledge of the changes to the info at hand.
But it really sucks when you only know the current version (in my case it's DAZ Studio 4.8.0.59). I'm finding out that I'm literally spending hours just to find out that the info I want is either not created, not in one of the Eternal WIP Documents or was done in an older version when things had different names or no longer exist in the current version. And good luck on trying to find the Old to New names translation, because it's usually mentioned only in passing and I've yet to find anything on what's been changed in the UI from past/current version/dot release. And the reason for that is.... most of the tutorials, Knowledge Base or Document center are either years old or so incomplete that it makes me feel they are just a waste of bandwidth.
Don't get me wrong, I love a good mystery. Usually though all the clues are planted and I can find them if I look hard enough -- if the story's well writen. That's not the case here, at all. With DAZ Studio (and Poser) it seems that documentation for the cycle of content creation is either spotty, "WIP" (AKA we'll get around to it... sometime ... maybe... ooooh squirrell!) or just not avialible to those of us just starting out with creating content. It's that this is one level of complexity that could be corrected by (at the minimum) just including a brief outline of the matter at hand instead of just having a link to a page that proudly proclaims: Forbidden -- which seems to be DAZ-speak for "Nothing here!" I've found it frustrating to find a video that's clear and consise about how to do something, only to find that the interface of DS has changed in the 4-6 years since the video was created. This is a downside to a constantly moving target, the data about the app has to be constantly updated. I mean, honestly, what real use is a tutorial done with the beta of DAZ Studio 4.0 (or earlier!) for somebody only used to DS 4.8? Especially concidering the changes the interface has undergone and that there's not a clear Interface of choice -- it took a while before I understood that there was a few different levels of Interface -- I rembember seeing some of the very same WIP Document center pages years ago. They might as well be preserved as historical documents at this point. I feel like that cartoon joke about drawing a cat, the first drawing has circles for the head and body with the caption "Draw the basic shapes of the cat" and the second has a fully rendered, drawn picture of a cat with the caption: "Then finish drawing the cat."
Case in point, the change in the Property editor, it's not in the current version of DS, it's been replaced by the ability to directly edit properites (right click on the prop tab and select edit). I found that out by a random read of a forum topic, not by a search. Would've saved me a bit of time and frustration when I was trying to find the Property Editor and gave up after a hour or so.
True, there's tutorials for sale in the store. I've only found one that's made for DAZ Studio 4.8. The rest look like they're for earlier versions, but the info page doesn't list which version and the product pictures are so small I can't make out which verison of DS is being shown or if it was taken with a different Interface. So, aside from that one single tutorial, I don't want to go though buying it, only to find out that I have to spend still more hours to translate it from an earlier version to the current one. I really don't want to chance it nor do I want to go though the cycle of buying something only to go though the motions of getting a refund/store credit.
It all boils down to Information. I've been told "its out there, you just have to piece it together", which sounds reasonable -- only if there was some logic to where that info is, what that info is called by the creator of it.... It's like I want to know how to bake a cake, only the info is listed as how to heat your oven, food coloring, Cooking pan shapes and uses, origins of yeast in pre-neolithic cultures and so on... IOW, I got 47,000 hits on my search on Google, but only 1 kinda sorta almost fits what I needed to know. While I realize this is an issue that DAZ has no control over, but what about the forums, which are under control by DAZ?
Usually forums are a great resouce, this one here has metric tons of good, solid info. Only thing is trying to find it. I found more usable information by just going from page to page instead of using the so-called "search forums" field. I have no idea where the controls for this search is and the results are usually keyed on individual words and not phrases (I've tried using quotes, but that doesn't work at all, usually the results are one or two postings and without the quotes, I get I-don't-know-how-many hits) and there's not a way to see which part of the forum the post(s) come from. I have to wade through pages of items for sale, announcements of items for sale, contests, yadda yadda yadda to get to what I'm looking for, it's just that it's so time-consuming and by the time I get to something that kinda-sorta is what I'm looking for, I'm tired and have to take a break.
I would be nice if there was a Tutorials or Content Creation fourm section/category where this info could be posted. This way that really neat posting about rigging (which I can't find anymore) that had links to several other pages could acutally be located and read. I accidentally closed that tab and didn't realize it until it was too late to undo the close tab, history was useless, and I've tried so many search phrases, I don't remember what terms I used to get to it as I had tried so very many of them. While some good members have taken the time to post tutorials with the word tutorial first in the subject line, searching for Tutorials results in seemingly random lists of posts with no real order or reason other than the word tutorial was mentioned somewhere in the posting. Again, I've found info faster by going from page to page and looking at the subject line's content. If only there was some way to limit search to just topics/titles... I hear tell of that being possible.
I do want to thank all the tutorial creators who preface their tutorials with info on which version of DS they're using and which interface they are within. That really helps. A lot.
I did find some sorta useable info on the "Publishing" section, there's a few links to a series of DAZ-wiki that, although seemingly outdated, has some useful info -- I think. It comes back to that WIP thing again. I feel that the entire Document Center/wiki for DAZ is a Work In Progress And Seemingly Stalled (yeah, okay, I do love me some fun acronyms :D ) While the storefront is professional and sharp looking, it feels like the further you go away from the store the more incomplete, unreliable and amateurish (in the sense that the pages seem to have cobwebs on them) the content becomes...
...so...
I'm using DAZ Studio Pro 4.8.052 and all I want is a reliable source of current information on how things are done when creating new content. It's just frustrating to find a document that seems to have info on what I want to do, only to find out that it was made for an earlier verson of DS and doesn't work in the current version.
If there's any tricks/hidden features/addresses to send bribes to/whatever about making the "Search" function on the forums an useful feature, I (and maybe others) would appreciate anyone sharing that info.
In the document/wiki/Eternal WIP pages -- Maybe changing the default "Forbidden" message page for a page that doesn't exist could be changed to a template that actually states that the page hasn't been made yet instead of expecting the User to have stumbled upon that explaination on a random forum post or as a reply from Help Center. I would be helpful if there was a page listing the changes in DS for each release, or at the least, the most curent one.
I know this is very rant-ish, I've tried to be constructive but sometimes frustrations seep out. I aplogize for any offense I may cause. It's just that when I upgraded to mac OS X 10.11 and Poser 2014 stopped working (more or less), I looked seriously at DAZ Studio and found it to be robust, well designed and, in many ways, so much easier and agile than P2014. But it's just that so much of what DS 4.8 can do for content creation is hidden, undocumented, or just obfuscated (due to not existing or not being able to be found in a reasonable manner), I just get a bit frustrated and annoyed. It seems to me that if DAZ really wants to differentiate themselves from Poser, maybe getting their information organized and updated would be a great way for advanced or wannabes (like me) users to really get into the app without a lot of wasting of time or fussing.
One last thing. A comparison of sorts. In comics there's this thing called Continuity, where every story happens and every new story references it ( if necessary) or draws from it to continue the story. Some storylines for these monthly comics can run for multiple issues (sometimes longer than a year!). This can become a big roadblock for new readers, because people who've read this series since the begining has the background of the character in their memories. But it leaves new readers confused and overwhelmed. Things get adjusted to compensate for this (either in a recap page, or a "Zero" isssue) -- because every issue of the comic is somebody's first issue. There's a lesson in this, I feel, that even if something's been around for a while, there's always going to be newcomers to it and even though it may take a bit of work and effort, making information simplier to get to will be beneficial to all.
Thanks for reading this.
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Comments
On searching: yes, the forum search is limited - I tend to use Google with site:www.daz3d.com/forums/ in the search terms.
If you get valid-looking links in the current wiki (not necessarily in the old ArtZone wiki) that come up as Forbidden it may be an error rather than deliberate, please open a support ticket so they can be checked.
Well, that's a interesting thing to do: I'm in the midst of trying to find information and I hit roadblocks and I'm to stop doing what I'm doing, interrupt my (attempt to) work just to open a support ticket for something that really should be checked in-house? That's like buying a car, planning a x-country trip and having the service dept. say that if I have any issues, head back to the garage and they'll have a look. When I was doing web design, that would not fly. At all.
<sarcasm>
I don't want to appear to be rude, but that's a pretty funny thing to say. But then it's a "safe" thing to say. Having issues with XXX? then just open a support ticket. Your ZZZ cant YYY in VVV? Open a support ticket. On second thought, it's a great suggestion. Puts the onus on the whiners and is effective in stopping any discourse. I have to start using that with my wife and friends. They have a problem, I'll just say "open a support ticket" drop my mic and walk off. Genius.
</sarcasm>
In all seriousness, if DAZ can't update pages to reflect the current version of DS, I have serious doubts they'll even fix or look at any reports of bad linkages.
Thanks for the Google tip. Should help me find stuff more or less better in the forum.
Companies hate documentation. It stinks and it's massively frustrating.
Two different groups of people...and if there are enough tickets (because verifiable tickets count, forum posts/complaints do not) are opened then it will be seen as a definite problem and not just a one-off. And, also, if there are enough tickets, then the support will make noise to get the people responsible for the other to move a bit faster...maybe.
T'would be a good idea. a user-based searchable and useable user manual. That's the stuff!
For me, at this time, I just don't have the time to do trial & error research or to constantly put in support tickets. I have comics to work on and, to be blunt, because of the lack of documentation DAZ Studio is going to be out of any workflow me and my studio-mates will be pursuing. I mean, all the time that I "wasted" trying and failing to find information I could've drawn and inked about 4 pages of comic art. Fortunetly my deadlines aren't that bad -- for the moment. This does illustrate that although documentation may be the vegtables and not the meat or dessert of an app, it is something that, imho, should never be treated lightly or half-way. The lack thereof has made me change my approach to one series already.
I can sympathize. Getting my art to the point of having a reasonable graphic-novel look and feel has been time-consuming and arduous. I really don't see a way someone could have done it well without having knowledge of scripting and in-depth knowledge about the lesser used features. I had been using DAZ Studio for a bit before I pursued this, so I knew the basics.
For me, it's been stubbornly not wanting to start a learning process again with other programs. While it's true the documentation is lacking in some key areas, I think DAZ Studio is intuitive enough that there hasn't been anything I haven't been able to figure out with a few hours of play (and some Google). I should also mention that with learning new programs, the terminology, rather than the right buttons to press is usually what I identify as the hurdles.