DAZ Content and DRM

marcoio

Ok, all good reasons to stay with 4.8 e and stop purchasing DAZ content....

kitakoredaz

I have no interesting about cloud or DAZ connect etc. simply hope to keep all as same as before,

and hope to install up-date and new contents get in daz shop,  by DIM (with keep all downloaded zip ) without problem.

 I really feel strange, which customer hope to change the way to download , install and buy contents?

I believe there is more and more important things which DS4.8  need to improve untill ds 5 released.

Bejaymac

And to think more and more Poser users were jumping ship, bet this dumb move sends them and a hell of a lot more besides back to Poser, and back to the Gen 4 figures.

ROFLMFAO talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Esemwy

OK, DAZ folks, stop pretending that smarter Smart Content has to come with DRM. Customers here are saying we don't like/want DRM, and I keep seeing responses saying, "but look at the smarter Smart Content." Your customers use third party tools, many have spent years oranizing their own content, some of us look through and edit stuf that we bought to make it work better for us, and DAZ is saying all that is coming to an end thinking they are the second coming of Steam.

I'll be using DIM until you make that no longer an option, then I'll start purchasing solely from third parties.

AnotherUserName

DAZ_Rawb said:

Give it a try, it is a pretty huge step forward in making smart content more usable and provides an extremely useful way to get to the content you have purchased from the store. The new versions of Iray and 3Delight are just bonuses.

I will not be trying 4.9. I have many files from many stores other than DAZ and this new and shiny piece of "smart" content will not work with them all. As ive indicated earlier, I dont need DAZ telling me how and where to store my files.

BeeMKay

And then thiere is this little thingy:

Can I use products installed through Daz Connect with other software?

Products installed through Daz Install Manager keep their previous functionality. Products updated to Daz Connect will not function with Carrara or the DSON Importer for Poser due to an inability to interface with Daz Connect web services, but all bridges (e.g. ZBrush, Bryce, Hexagon) and exporters continue to function as they have.

Tell me, again, how this is going to be an improvement?

nicstt

Richard Haseltine said:

AnotherUserName said:

Ati2 said:

AnotherUserName said:

DAZ, or someone, can you please explain about what exactly DAZ Connect is?

Read through the questions and answers here: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/64736/daz-studio-pro-beta-version-4-9-0-21/p1

If all of it is true, it could be a really good thing.

Ok, so if im reading this correctly, the content that we purchase (licence) that has this encryption enabled will no longer be available to download as a standalone file but will instead be stored in the cloud, whatever that is. We will then have to access DAZ connect in order to access and use the product in our libraries? Im confused about several points with this connect service. It sounds like none of our content will no longer be stored on our computers.

No, the content you access through Connect will no longer have a zip. The files will still be downloaded to and stored on your PC when you install them to DS, but you won't  have an archive copy when they are unisntalled. Once installed you will be able to use them off-line (and if I understand it correctly you will be able to back-up your installation, though you would need to connect to the store once to use a restored back-up).

What!

I have to connect? Hmmm, I guess I will be discovering the benefits of other providers.

I'm objecting - not because I want to avoid paying - look at how much I've spent with Daz, but because I object to in principle; that and the fact that connections fail for all sorts of reasons. I don't use steam for the same reason, and that fact has saved me quite a bit of cash. I didn't bother with those products.

AnotherUserName

Bejaymac said:

And to think more and more Poser users were jumping ship, bet this dumb move sends them and a hell of a lot more besides back to Poser, and back to the Gen 4 figures.

ROFLMFAO talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Thats for sure!

DAZ, you just gained a significant advantage over Renderosity with their whole disaster of a re-design. Now it looks like you re going to totally reverse that gain and send your customers elsewhere.

PLEASE, reconsider the design decisions behind 4.9.

Chohole

If you really would like Daz 3D to see your feedback, please post it in the Official Thread  HERE, rather than using other threads which may not be monitored by Daz 3D people.

kitakoredaz

But  if I complain (ofcourse to give daz my feedback as flank customer, not complain for complain)

about this beta, and daz decision,    on official topic,

you or another admin may find it easy  then it is not good for official annoucne  topic, and will  delete,,  I afraid 

(I feel,, if it will be delete too?)

araneldon

Chohole said:

If you really would like Daz 3D to see your feedback, please post it in the Official Thread  HERE, rather than using other threads which may not be monitored by Daz 3D people.

I made a new thread because DRM and the DAZ Studio beta are two separate issues. Not everyone uses DAZ Studio exclusively.

Bejaymac

Pam you know as well as I do that wont change anything, once they decide to do something they run with it come hell or high water, and nothing we say will make them change their minds.

About the only thing that would make them change their minds is if their profits nose dived after this goes live.

WendyLuvsCatz

my two cents worth is that DRM only punishes legitimate users, the pirates and warez users still find a way

it is one reason I never got into Vue and also why I pretty much use only DAZ conrtent in iClone

Stormlyght

DAZ_Rawb said:

AnotherUserName said:

 

1. What happens if the internet connection is poor?

1. We did select people for the private beta that had connections all the way down to bad dial-up and they were able to authenticate and fetch metadata with the server from there.

AnotherUserName said:

2. What speed of internet is required for the validation to complete?

2. Dial-up works fine, it is just fetching a key and a list of purchased product id's. Less than ~150k for even the most intense collectors.

 

4. How long is this validation expected to take?

4. On a broadband connection it takes about 50ms or so to fetch the product information along with a list of files to download for that product. The other option (which isn't ready for the public yet) is that you can download an offline version of the product and can install them without any online connection (after you have connected at least once via Daz Connect), so I guess that version is only limited by your hard drive speed after you have downloaded that offline version.

Dial up, Satellite and slow DSL would only work fine if the only thing you had to do is download the meta data... and you had the option to work offline. As it stands right now I have to drive to the nearest town to download files. And, as a a qualifier, I am not a minority when it comes to those nation-wide (US) who still have only available slow internet connection.  I challenge you to the pull the most recent data nation-wide in the USA and then look at your international audience to look at their data speeds before making a decision to have files only available as a cloud service. I still remember how disappointed my family was that Steam wouldn't work at our home even though we did try. If this isn't your intent then please disregard.

AnotherUserName

Stormlyght said:

DAZ_Rawb said:

AnotherUserName said:

 

1. What happens if the internet connection is poor?

1. We did select people for the private beta that had connections all the way down to bad dial-up and they were able to authenticate and fetch metadata with the server from there.

AnotherUserName said:

2. What speed of internet is required for the validation to complete?

2. Dial-up works fine, it is just fetching a key and a list of purchased product id's. Less than ~150k for even the most intense collectors.

 

4. How long is this validation expected to take?

4. On a broadband connection it takes about 50ms or so to fetch the product information along with a list of files to download for that product. The other option (which isn't ready for the public yet) is that you can download an offline version of the product and can install them without any online connection (after you have connected at least once via Daz Connect), so I guess that version is only limited by your hard drive speed after you have downloaded that offline version.

Dial up, Satellite and slow DSL would only work fine if the only thing you had to do is download the meta data... and you had the option to work offline. As it stands right now I have to drive to the nearest town to download files. And, as a a qualifier, I am not a minority when it comes to those nation-wide (US) who still have only available slow internet connection.  I challenge you to the pull the most recent data nation-wide in the USA and then look at your international audience to look at their data speeds before making a decision to have files only available as a cloud service. I still remember how disappointed my family was that Steam wouldn't work at our home even though we did try. If this isn't your intent then please disregard.

Thank you. I believe that this is one of the biggest misconceptions made by corporations today, the myth that everyone has access to reliable, fast (or otherwise) internet.

AnotherUserName

DAZ, I just renewed my PC+ subscription even though my current sub dosent run out until DEC 31. If you switch to this new DRM format, I will be demanding a full refund.

Wilmap

Same here. My sub goes way into 2017! If we can't download & install manually then I too will be asking for a refund.

swordkensia

DAZ_Rawb said:

jpb06t -formerly latego- said:

I find this evolution extremely unpleasant but no comment will make you change your mind. What will make change your mind will be the sight of customers restricting themselves to buying the mininal amount of content (e.g. for Genesis 4, head and body morphs and that's all) with everything else bought elsewhere (e.g. Renderosity of RDNA). When this will happen (and rest assured that it will happen) you will backpedal like you did with G2 male/female vs. G1 one-size-fits-all.

I encourage you to read through the complete release announcement to find out the full "extent" of the encryption that Daz Connect adds. As @Daz_Jon stated, in order to download any content from our store you have to connect in one way or another this just adds an easier way to get the content.

 

Please give 4.9 a try and see how much easier and nicer it is compared to the previous ways to get content loaded in. Let me know if there is anything you think that could be improved in the new workflow.

 

While we reserve the right to backpedal, I will also remind you at how successful Steam has been even though it's DRM system is far more restrictive than our system. What we believe made Steam successful and what will make Daz Connect successful is because both systems had the primary goal of being user-friendly instead of trying to restrict the user. Our primary goal with 4.9 was to bring a better method of getting content installed in Studio.

 

Heres MY version of easy.. 

Go to MY products page.... Download Zip File. Upack Zip file on my workstation.. Place zipped files in my.. My Library folder.  EASY..!!!

I also have my workstations networked.. Content is installed on two machines, and then other machines are pointed to the content via my home/personal network. How will this work with connect..???? AArrghhhh....

Hold on... did DazJohn just say that 4.9 will require you to authenticate it, before it is usable.???

S.K.

 

swordkensia

DAZ_Jon said:

Tobor said:

"Categories" = Fail. There needs to be a way to use existing organization trees, or else there's too much split locations. I don't need to remind anyone Daz assets aren't the only ones we have.

Comparing Daz content to STEAM content is a lark, to say the least. Game players don't care where the constituent files are.

Back before Steam and when it first came out, gamers used the same argument of it took control away from them. When mp3 player software first started auto-organizing where your music was placed and stopped exposing file paths in favor of sorting / filtering based upon ID3 tags with smart playlists, a similar reaction was had by those that had been organizing their music by hand in their own way and saw years of meticulous effort being thrown away for what was viewed as an inferior way to organize it. In both cases, and other cases of similar type things (manually organizing and keeping on top of it out of necessity versus automated and fast tools that had more convenience and saved massive amounts of time) the time saving and convenience ended up being the expected norm.

I know that doesn't make it any better and is, seen to a degree as patronizing or a complete miss of an analogy and appears as a non-sequitor, but one thing still is true. For the majority of users, especially new users, managing and organizing content is hard, time consuming, and causes a lot of people headaches and struggle with constant issues of "why doesn't this work for me" and is a major stopping place for people who aren't used to that sort of manual management of files on their computer. If those tasks can be automatically done in a way that allows customizing the views of it so you can organize, sort, and filter in ways that make sense, the time savings and not needing to devote time to the "management" side of dealing with content means more time to actually use the content. So, a lot of effort and time has been going into the new ways smart content / content library works (and the tools for getting non-Daz items organized in app) to try to make it so the work of "which files can I move" or "where do these files have to be located" gives way to more powerful and flexible ways to associate, search, sort, filter, and ultimately use your content. 

To a degree being able to move around files still exist and the methods it used, especially for 3rd party content still works (not going to just do a complete break from it). But more and more we want to introduce new, faster, and more powerful ways to handle your content. As with any new ways, it means a change of what some are currently used to, and for many a decade or more of being used to it, and that is hard. I don't know if you can currently move around user facing files that are downloaded via Daz Connect, you would have to try or get a response from one of the developers to see if it currently works or is on the list of things to work on. However, if you haven't tried the out the new model of how to organize or deal with your content yet, I would encourage that to see if the time savings and convenience is something worth using in some cases.

I don't want to spark a debate on what the "better" way is as it is all personal experience and completely subjective. But try it out, give us feedback. We do care what you guys think and want to make a product which will be the best experience for as many people as possible, so if you have suggestions for it on things we can do to improve, especially during the beta on such a new thing, please give it. 

THEN MAKE CONNECT OPTIONAL..that way new users who cannot manage their content, can have this hand holding, nanny state method, of using the software.

Whilst users with 10+ years experience (me), can just continue to manage OUR PAID FOR CONTENT, as we always have done.

S.K.

BeeMKay

swordkensia said:

DAZ_Rawb said:

jpb06t -formerly latego- said:

I find this evolution extremely unpleasant but no comment will make you change your mind. What will make change your mind will be the sight of customers restricting themselves to buying the mininal amount of content (e.g. for Genesis 4, head and body morphs and that's all) with everything else bought elsewhere (e.g. Renderosity of RDNA). When this will happen (and rest assured that it will happen) you will backpedal like you did with G2 male/female vs. G1 one-size-fits-all.

I encourage you to read through the complete release announcement to find out the full "extent" of the encryption that Daz Connect adds. As @Daz_Jon stated, in order to download any content from our store you have to connect in one way or another this just adds an easier way to get the content.

 

Please give 4.9 a try and see how much easier and nicer it is compared to the previous ways to get content loaded in. Let me know if there is anything you think that could be improved in the new workflow.

 

While we reserve the right to backpedal, I will also remind you at how successful Steam has been even though it's DRM system is far more restrictive than our system. What we believe made Steam successful and what will make Daz Connect successful is because both systems had the primary goal of being user-friendly instead of trying to restrict the user. Our primary goal with 4.9 was to bring a better method of getting content installed in Studio.

 

Heres MY version of easy..

Go to MY products page.... Download Zip File. Upack Zip file on my workstation.. Place zipped files in my.. My Library folder.  EASY..!!!

I also have my workstations networked.. Content is installed on two machines, and then other machines are pointed to the content via my home/personal network. How will this work with connect..???? AArrghhhh....

Hold on... did DazJohn just say that 4.9 will require you to authenticate it, before it is usable.???

S.K.

 

No, you have to authenticate yourself to the DAZ-Cnnect "shop access" before you can download any content from there when you use it the first time.

swordkensia

lee_lhs said:

swordkensia said:

DAZ_Rawb said:

jpb06t -formerly latego- said:

I find this evolution extremely unpleasant but no comment will make you change your mind. What will make change your mind will be the sight of customers restricting themselves to buying the mininal amount of content (e.g. for Genesis 4, head and body morphs and that's all) with everything else bought elsewhere (e.g. Renderosity of RDNA). When this will happen (and rest assured that it will happen) you will backpedal like you did with G2 male/female vs. G1 one-size-fits-all.

I encourage you to read through the complete release announcement to find out the full "extent" of the encryption that Daz Connect adds. As @Daz_Jon stated, in order to download any content from our store you have to connect in one way or another this just adds an easier way to get the content.

 

Please give 4.9 a try and see how much easier and nicer it is compared to the previous ways to get content loaded in. Let me know if there is anything you think that could be improved in the new workflow.

 

While we reserve the right to backpedal, I will also remind you at how successful Steam has been even though it's DRM system is far more restrictive than our system. What we believe made Steam successful and what will make Daz Connect successful is because both systems had the primary goal of being user-friendly instead of trying to restrict the user. Our primary goal with 4.9 was to bring a better method of getting content installed in Studio.

 

Heres MY version of easy..

Go to MY products page.... Download Zip File. Upack Zip file on my workstation.. Place zipped files in my.. My Library folder.  EASY..!!!

I also have my workstations networked.. Content is installed on two machines, and then other machines are pointed to the content via my home/personal network. How will this work with connect..???? AArrghhhh....

Hold on... did DazJohn just say that 4.9 will require you to authenticate it, before it is usable.???

S.K.

 

No, you have to authenticate yourself to the DAZ-Cnnect "shop access" before you can download any content from there when you use it the first time.

Well I don't want to use Daz Connect to download my content.

S.K.

BeeMKay

They say that all future content will be available in DAZ Connect only, so you will have no choice.

To me, this sounds like I will go somewhere else for shopping in the future.

AnotherUserName

lee_lhs said:

They say that all future content will be available in DAZ Connect only, so you will have no choice.

To me, this sounds like I will go somewhere else for shopping in the future.

Same here. DAZ, the buck stops at 4.8.

Tobor

If it's a question of D|S insisting on a particular organization because of encyrption, then it's easy enough to move the encyrpted files to a non-user facing directory, and use simple pointer files to them. These pointer files can then be moved anywhere, as they always have beem, This is how /data and /texture directories work today. We can have a GxF character placed anywhere in our own organization scheme, and it'll still find its support files, as long as those haven't been moved, and they never need to be.

For products that are only user facing, such as poses, the actual pose data can still go into a protected directory, with the user facing files available for moving.

The problem with encryption and anti-piracy steps -- that's what we're really talking about here -- is that most developers think up the lock first, then try to shoehorn the ways to allow people to get through the door. It always must be the other way around, or you'll lose business. It's what happened to music downloads and ebooks. (And, as an author with over 65 published books, I know a thing or two about the effects of ebook piracy.) Both of these businesses have basically given up on DRM, or use very simplistic methods to counter casual piracy.

There is a business case to be made about taking steps to protect content, but there's also a case for allowing allow full and completely transparent functionality for paying users. The two go hand-in-hand.

swordkensia

lee_lhs said:

They say that all future content will be available in DAZ Connect only, so you will have no choice.

To me, this sounds like I will go somewhere else for shopping in the future.

Of course I have a choice. I will go elsewhere for my content ;)

.. ontop of the more than 300GB of content I already have(a lifetimes worth)... Its a shame I was really looking forward to using the future figures etc.. but this is just unacceptable..

Hivewire, Rendo and Runtimedna, have just become MUCH more appealing.!!, maybe even back to Poser....stupid daz VERY stupid.!!!!

S.K.

DAZ_cjones

Just to clarify a few things, because I don't want it to be confused.

DAZ Studio 4.9 allows the use of DAZ Connect.  DAZ Studio 4.9 does not require the use of DAZ Connect.  You can use 4.9 and never login in at all. Login is only required to use DAZ Connect features.  If you install products through DAZ Install Manger or manually, 4.9 will use those products just like 4.8 does. 4.9 also includes important updates to both default renders that you will most likely want even if you don't choose to use DAZ Connect.

 

BeeMKay

DAZ_cjones said:

Just to clarify a few things, because I don't want it to be confused.

DAZ Studio 4.9 allows the use of DAZ Connect.  DAZ Studio 4.9 does not require the use of DAZ Connect.  You can use 4.9 and never login in at all. Login is only required to use DAZ Connect features.  If you install products through DAZ Install Manger or manually, 4.9 will use those products just like 4.8 does. 4.9 also includes important updates to both default renders that you will most likely want even if you don't choose to use DAZ Connect.

 

Only that in the future, all products will be delivered ONLY by DAZ Connect, and no longer by DIM or ZIP download.

Are all products Daz Connect ready?

New products, as well as a huge selection of older products, will be offered through Daz Connect right away, with more of the older products having Daz Connect support added in the future. Our plans are for existing products that have been offered through non-Daz Connect methods to continue to be offered in those ways as well as through Daz Connect. New products will begin to migrate toward a Daz Connect-only delivery.

Wilmap

But new content will eventually only be available by using Daz Connect!

atticanne

How will this affect those of us who have 32-bit?  What about the Product files?  Can I still find the product in the list, click Create New Category, and Studio place all of the product's items together in one category in my Content Library?  If someone tries 4.9 and doesn't like it, how much of it can be rolled back to 4.8?

I am not a gamer.  I am opposed to the cloud and encryption.  I gave up on Smart Content a long time ago.  I have already started diversifying my spending.

Ghosty12

Thing is I think that the main issue people are having is that all new up coming content and gradually old content will only be downloadable via Daz Connect.. Also it seems there will be no choice of where people can install their files unlike DIM where you can create new install folders and to install where you want.. And lastly the ability to have zip files so people can back up easily the content they have to storage medium so they don't have to download gigabytes of content all over again..

And I am like the others have said don't even use the smart content just never found that I needed it..