I ask for more historical accuracy of vintage clothing
AOBB
Posts: 957
I am not an expert on all things vintage but...
I would love it if the vendors did more research into the clothing styles from the periods they are supposed to represent and also not sell clothing from 1919 as 1940s attire. Yes, that happened with a very nice set of male clothing inspired obviously by a popular tv series.
Another thing - this is a bit late to complain about but while I'm at it... The Noir (as represented by the world of Bonnie 8.1) period is sold as a roaring twenties phenomenon when it in fact belonged to the 1940s and early 1950s period.
Also, in reference to an outfit that just came out. This is what a classic 1950's suit looked like really ( narrow waistlines were en vogue, also note the length of the skirts and jackets):
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tailored is the keypoint
the one newly released is one size fits all more like the shirt dresses and suits of the 80's
Yes, those 1930-1950s clothes were tailored, chic. Which cannot be said of the 3d outfit that was released just now.
I bypassed that outfit you are referring to. My mother was married in a dusty pink suit in 1949 very like the suit you show above @AOBB and living my childhood in Los Angeles, CA we were very aware in the 50s of the styles worn by the actresses in Hollywood. They shopped in Paris and New York. And I don't remember anyone with style who wore a sack, unless they were from a place where magazines, TV, and movies didn't penetrate.
I also remember that advertisement.
Although there was a 'sack' dress, I always thought it was pretty ugly.
@memcneil70 - Precicely. Thank you for sharing your memories. Unfortunately now the beautifully tailored outfits are reserved for Arabian royalty and wives of bilionaires. What you see regular people wearing on the streets is pretty horrible and that lack of refinement is reflected in the absence of tailored elegance in the 3d garment in the DAZ store. Bespoke tailoring is a dying profession. What a sad state of affairs this is. All we are left with is "alterations" at the dry cleaners.
Also the very loose adherence to period accuracy that happens too often here at DAZ ends in spreading disinformation and bad habits among the younger DS users. Older ones, like us, won't be fooled by it - we know better - but the young generations, unaware of how things used to be will buy into this pseudohistory...
I tried to model something similar, although simplified.
I had trouble getting dForce to keep the jacket kind of stiff.
But anyway, there is lacking a corset morph in order to get the shape from the first picture.
I doubt that the opening images are really representative, though - even in the 50s, off-the-peg clothing was common and very few people would have had tailored items (or indeed, have had the latest fashions each season or year).
This! I find it utterly maddening when something is named in a way that indicates a certain era, and is then historically inaccurate. In that case it should be called {Whatever} Inspired Outfit. I was hopeful when I saw the name, and then disappointed with the new outfit. It's far too flowy, the bustline shape is too round, and the waist definition is missing. Suits of that era were always lined and had some weight to them, and women wore foundation garments to obtain the silhouette of the day. In that era there were always darts or seams in the garments specifically to obtain the correct silhouette. Quite honestly, they were structural works of art.
One has to take into consideration the fabrics used within an era as well, especially with synthetics. For example, in terms of garment history, fibers like Lycra (Spandex, Elastane) are very recent inventions (1958 and not in commercial use until a few years later). Also to be noted is the way fabric was cut. In the 20's and 30's we see more flowy garments. One of the ways this look was obtained was by cutting on the bias (the fabric turned at a 45 degree angle) because it gave the fabric some stretch.
I'm certainly no expert either, but I'm approaching 60, grew up on old movies, my mother was a seamstress, and she kept all her clothes from that era, so I have a decent knowledge of what's period acceptable and what's not.
@Richard Haseltine - you are correct but the ready-to-wear clothing in stores was soooo much better than the hobo-style clothing you find in stores today. Here is an every day photo from 1950s New York:
@sazzyazzca - Yes, such historically inaccurate clothing should indeed be sold as "inspired by". That would be the right thing to do.
In the olden days tailors were much more available and cheaper than today, so many more people would have tailored clothing.
Even in my family, my grandmother's sister was a very talented seamstress who made everything - from ball gowns to suits. Making a proper suit (be it for men or for women) was very difficult, because so many elements went into making it including the stiff interlining that gave the garment structure. It was a whole science to learn how to make "heavy" tailoring (suits, coats) and there were tailors who specialized in just that.
In those times dressing up was encouraged unlike today and people on the street looked much more like the people in the fashion magazines.
My grandmother and mother had almost everything made to measure. They had at least two tailors - a very good male tailor who made for them suits and coats (he lived upstairs from them - wasn't that convenient!) and a lady seamstress who made them dresses. My grandmother was a junior school teacher who took extra work hours to support herself and her family, as my grandfather was killed during WWII.
Later my mom, when she moved abroad, got married and was really poor, learned to sew herself. She bought sewing and knitting patterns. She knit like a machine and her clothes were truly beautiful. I wore dresses and suits made by her well into my university years.
Even recently I had a summer/spring dress made by a regular seamstress from a Dolce and Gabbana silk fabric. I have boucle chanelesque suits made by another seamstress and trust me - I'm no millionaire. It is all about the culture we live in that does not support dressing with chic.
@felis - thank you for making this suit. I think there should be some way to simulate the stiffer areas of the jacket and a corset-waist morph should be introduced for 3d garments too.
Anyway, I ask that DAZ pay more attention that vintage clothing is represented properly and garments that are clearly not "vintage" or "historical" not be sold as such.
@richardandtracy - thank you richard. That is a very cool memory indeed.
As soon as I was old enough to hold an embroidery needle, crochet hook (steel), or sit behind my mother's Remington sewing machine, both she and my father's mother were teaching me to embroider, crochet, and sew. My grandmother believe a lady needed those skills. By the time I was in junior high and they had a class for home skills and thought to teach the girls how to sew an apron, I had years of experience behind me.
I also became aware that the drawings of Cinderella and Prince Charming and all the other fairytale characters had clothing from different periods spanning hundreds of years. I started collecting books on costumes/clothing with my first jobs every where I lived. Messed up historical clothing drives me nuts.
When I entered the service we were still wearing those nipped-in waist uniforms that were also tailored in Basic Training so you didn't dare gain an extra pound in the waist. When the US Air Force went to the new style uniform it was expensive, I found one a size larger than I wore in the base thrift shop but the Base Exchange Dry Cleaner took it and sized it down for me. Many stores and dry cleaners had and some still have tailoring services. I was lucky a friend at Ramstein AB, GE got me into Vogue Patterns and tailoring my own clothes. Now I am retired and I am no longer in uniforms or 'dress for success' business outfits, I live in jeans and tees and running shoes. With a dogs and now just two cats, nice clothes are not safe. Not with zoomies, nothing is safe.
It did hit me the other night that what those suits did remind me of... the 1920s/30s. This is a link to a page from Vintage Dancer that shows a variety of them. That is when that ugly, baggy look was in.
@memcneil70 - thank you for your very interesting post. It's funny, my husband thought that the 3d outfit in the DAZ store looks like something Maria Curie could wear. He got the time period wrong but he was right that this baggy look was "in" at one point.
I'm thinking after reading your post - maybe DAZ could hire you (or someone else if you are not interested) as a consultant who would work with the vendors to get those 3D vintage/historical outfits right and educate them on how those beautiful garments were constructed, so the 3d models based on them reacted to movement in a proper way. It would also be good if DAZ worked a bit more on the dForce tools to allow for a larger variety of clothing that could also be more detailed. I would love to see patch pockets, real button holes with working buttons, stiffness zones in clothing to simulate the canvas interlining or even softer fabric stiffeners. Also morphs as a part of the standard genesis package that simulate corset waists, push up bras (bras in general). These things would definitely be on my wishlist.
Please consider this, DAZ staff...
I really think some sort of history of clothing/sewing 101 courses would be helpful for the vendors (and us, clients too!). I recall seeing in one outfit sold here on DAZ a skirt with a line, representing a thread running with a certain offset along the bottom edge of the skirt. I understand that this is the thread that attaches the bottom hem to the rest of the skirt. In a proper, real skirt the bottom hem is attached in such a way that the stitching is invisible. Every woman who knows a little bit about fashion will be aware of that. Such blunders are really disheartening.
Here's an idea, if anyone has the acces to any scans, they could use actual patterns from the time period in Marvelous Designer.
@wondergirl0706 - yes, I was thinking about that too and I found a good resource for vintage patterns here:
https://vintagesewingpatterncompany.com/
They have patterns in pdf form, downloadable. Really good website, so if there are any vendors interested in making honest-to-goodness vintage 3d clothing then that is a good place to start.
DAZ has some wonderful PAs who are really talented and skilled. But they are also limited by the what Daz Studio can handle (multiple layers of cloth at the neck is an explosion waiting to happen) and what the general paying public wants. And they are quick to share their knowledge with folks on the forums.
But if you want to see what one person has done with historical clothing, Marvelous Designer (MD), and Daz Studio, may I point you to this thread in the Art Studio? https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/601586/daz-md-and-traditional-pattern-making-june-29-update-canterbury/p1
Currently while I am having to fix a database of missing metadata, I am collecting Pinterest references sent to me. I have used some of my own references and patterns put out on Pinterest to do some simple tunics, but other than the first one, I had more disasters than not. I need more time. And then my year got 'very' interesting, complex, and then I found the missing metadata, so no time for MD.
There is also one thing that reputable sources hammer home is fabric, leather, and wood did not survive the centuries very well and many of our ideas of what people wore are from art works created centuries after the period being documented. And women's lives were not well documented, even wealthy women, much less the average peasant or merchant class person's lives. Archeological finds, preservation in museums, and hopefully available to the public is the best way to find out what really was worn. Another issue to remember is cloth was handmade until the Industrial Revolution, so it was precious and clothing would be handed down, made over, added to, cut down, and used until it earned its way into the rag bin, a quilt, or rag rug. I have two quilts my mother's mother made for her in the 1920/30s from old clothes and muslin and a little store bought fabric for sashing.
I recently bought 7 seasons of Highlander Outlander and as I was testing the DVDs, I found the second one had scratches, and all the episodes on it were damaged, except for the add-on extra, which was about the costuming. Fascinating. Including the bit about dying fabric.
Mary
Edited to correct the name of the series.
@memcneil70 - Thank you for the link. The post with the link to a video on making a men's suit looks particualarly interesting to me. Maybe I will get into MD and see if it is for me. Well, right now I am too busy sculpting heads that will be G9 freebie head morphs, so I don't want to pay for a MD subscription if it won't be used right now. Still, the idea is tempting.
You write about historical outfits and lack of information about them. I am more interested in 20th century fashion (late 1930s to early 1950s period). I am sure I am not the only one who would welcome 3d outfits from that era and there is plenty of information about them.
I would love to see that Highlander extra about making the costumes. Sounds delicious...
Edit: Okay - Outlander. Got it. I am waiting for the Henry Cavill Highlander to be finally produced...
Would love to see some vintage clothing from the late 1800's that isn't a stylized corset. Plain farmer's clothing, or frontier women's clothing would be nice. Sometimes people get lost in the glamour side of things!