New Dell [or other] PC advice appreciated [TNX-ORDERED!]
SileneUK
Posts: 1,975
Well it happened this morning within an hour. My old Dell video card died (Nvidia GTS 240) and I was lucky to get a few minutes here and there of display to move some critical files to my external drive. But ran out of luck. The fan on it had been noisy for some time, but it usually stopped. I'd been backing up my work files for a while, but got a bit complacent sadly. Well it was 5 years old with a lot of miles. I have to say this Dell Vostro was the worst Dell I have ever had. I have been buying or working with Dells since the late 1990s with quite decent luck for the price.
I am on my husband's laptop tonight. A local shop is going to slap a useable card in my PC for me tomorrow morning so I can finish my job work by the weekend. I will also then be able to deactivate/uninstall my Adobe suite so I can put it on a new machine when it comes.
This has brought forward my need for a new machine by almost a month. So here is what I have so far. It's one of the small business recommendations for those who work with Autodesk. Close enough I thought for using my owned copy of CS3 and then Carrara. There are important features that are beyond my ability to judge as good or not.
Here is a PC Mag review: http://uk.pcmag.com/dell-precision-t1700-sff/660/review/dell-precision-t1700-sff I struggled with some of the comparisons to be honest. I am not an engineer. I do a lot of 2D graphics and memory hungry Photoshop work. For 3D work for illustrations and maybe a wee bit of animation some time later on, is this going to do the job?
Precision T1700 Small Form Factor
Windows 7 Professional (64Bit Windows 8.1 License, Media) NOT going for W10 because of Adobe CS3 compatibility issues.
Memory: 32GB (4x8GB) 1600MHz DDR3 Non-ECC I have 16mb now, it's about double cost for more than that. Is it worth it?
Intel® Core™ i7-4790 Processor (Quad Core HT, 3.60GHz Turbo, 8MB, w/ HD Graphics 4600)
OR
Intel® Xeon® Processor E3-1271 v3 (Quad Core HT, 3.60GHz Turbo,8MB)
Nvidia Quadro K620 2GB Half Height (DP, DL-DVI-I) (1 DP to SL-DVI adapter)
OR
AMD FirePro W4100 2GB Half Height (4 DP) (4 mDP-DP adapters)
I can't really afford to spring for the 2 GB NVIDIA® Quadro® NVS 510 (4mDP) (4mDP-DP adapters UNLESS IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT. I'd like to try Octane some day)
1TB 3.5inch Serial ATA (7.200 Rpm) Hard Drive Is this adequate?
Dell 27 Monitor P2714H - 68.6cm(27") This will do the job... I love my old 24" but the connection in the back has been duct-taped for way too long.
Any advice appreciated in words of one syllable please! I am seeing new terms now, WTF is RAID or Thunderbolt? Going for a long hot bath and a very large glass of ice cold Prosecco
Thanking any of you very much for reading... 
Silene
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Comments
I am also not a hardware person, but I know some who have helped me over the years. I used to buy Dell but felt their quality had gone down, so now I have machines custom built by a local (Houston) one man shop. Carrara animation and video editing are probably the most demanding apps I run. Most recent spec: Core i7 4770k 3.5 GhZ, 16 GB RAM, Dual 2TB WD drives, nvidia 660GTX, Win7 64 bit, big tower with lots of fans and vents. It runs Carrara animation very nicely. My tech buddies talked me out of RAID and into the backup program "Casper" (similar to the old Norton "Ghost" but friendlier - get it?). It basically just makes a complete copy of the working drive to a second internal hard drive, and the copy is bootable. It works fine and has saved me on occasion. More here:
https://www.fssdev.com/
I asked PhilW a few days ago the benefit between the Xeon and i7 in practical terms. He said, you can put 2 Xeons in 1 motherboard. If you're only going for a single CPU, I still don't know which one would be better.
If you're likely to have Studio and Iray in your future, then you'll definitely want the Nvidia card over the AMD.
As regards disc space. My current system drive is 1TB. Over half of that is taken up with Daz & Poser stuff (not the download files, just the installed ones). I hit 98% full and had to buy a new drive (I bought a WD Elements 4TB USB3 external, but I'm not going to recommend it, cos it failed after 2 weeks).
My iMac has a 27" monitor: it's gorgeous.
Technical terms:
RAID = Redundant Array of Independant Discs. Basically a way of taking several drives and making them into one big one, and done in a way that you won't lose data if one of the drives fails.
Thunderbolt = An interface standard for connecting things such as hard drves, SSDs, monitors etc. Phenomenally fast, a bit like USB3 on steroids. Mainly used on Macs.
My Dell advice would be to not get a Dell. ;-)
If you are locked to the Windows ecosystem, there has got to be better choices than a Dell. Folks I know have had nothing but problems with them.
If you're getting the PC built to your spec, I've heard good things about Chillblast - http://www.chillblast.com They're in Poole, and you can even collect if you're near enough.
Nope, it wasn't me! I wouldn't be much use when talking hardware anyway...
Wise advice. About two years ago I ordered an AlienWare from Dell, charged my credit card and they never sent it, after a month they gave my money back. After that, I did some research comparing prices of the components included with an AlienWare, the conclusion was that building your own rig is cheaper with more robust components. I went that route, I didn't assemble it myself, but carefully picked every component, even my graphics card was a great choice, it's an NVIDA GTX 780, it has 2304 cuda cores, and Iray works really great.
No, you're right, it was Jack Tomalin. One day I should learn to do names . . .
I use PC Specialist
They have never let me down. First one they built me I had for several years, and then sold on. The one before this one I used (hard use) for over 6 years before passing it on to my other half, and this one I have been using now for around 2½ years.
+1 for pcspecialist - they built me a rip-snorting laptop that is still a bit of a beast even after a few years :)
My mate had a PC that sung to him all the time.... it was a Dell
derrdummm
Thank you all for the suggestions... and the humour, I needed that!
Am off to pick up my crippled machine with a substitute card so I can finish my 2D work for this month.
Am going to do some more swotting up on features. I have a bit of a constraint in that if I buy a Dell, the shop I do contract work (for the last 10 years) for will buy it for me so I avoid the VAT (20% tax). Except for this last one, all my previous Dells have been great. But will look at some of the vendors/models mentioned.
Cheers again... very much appreciate the help. If any more ideas come to mind, please post!
I think the sky fell on me ... ;)
That is an excellent recommendation. Thank you for passing it on... and if you are happy, then that is a very good referral indeed.
I read up about them and they are highly rated. Here's what I have picked out. (If you choose a conflicting component, a message comes up with alternate recommendations, some of which cost less). This is just my first attempt at a quote. I don't know if this machine is too geared towards gamers, but it is a starting point.
All for £1,850, but includes VAT and some software and a webcam I didn't list. Can't get around that. But if I am getting a better system than from Dell.....
Case
FRACTAL DEFINE R5 BLACK QUIET MID-TOWER CASE
Processor (CPU)
Intel® Core™i7 Quad Core Processor i7-4790k (4.0GHz) 8MB Cache
Motherboard
ASUS® Z97 WS - ATX, USB 3.0, SATA 6 GB/s
Memory (RAM)
32GB HyperX FURY DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz (4 x 8GB)
Graphics Card
PNY QUADRO K2200 - 4GB GDDR5, 640 CUDA Cores - 2 x DP, 1 x DVI
1st Hard Disk
240GB HyperX SAVAGE SSD, SATA 6 Gb/s (upto 560MB/sR | 530MB/sW)
2nd Hard Disk
2TB 3.5" SATA-III 6GB/s HDD 7200RPM 64MB CACHE
1st DVD/BLU-RAY Drive
24x DUAL LAYER DVD WRITER ±R/±RW/RAM
Power Supply
CORSAIR 450W VS SERIES™ VS-450 POWER SUPPLY
Processor Cooling
Corsair H60 Hydro Series High Performance CPU Cooler (£59)
Thermal Paste
STANDARD THERMAL PASTE FOR SUFFICIENT COOLING
Sound Card
ONBOARD 8 CHANNEL (7.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking
2 x ONBOARD 10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORTS
USB Options
MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 4 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
Operating System
Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit w/SP1 - inc DVD & Licence (£109)
Monitor
AOC I2769VM 27" IPS Monitor - 5ms, 1920x1080, D-Sub, HDMI, DP (£181)
That should do the job :)
That looks a lot better..
Just 1 item I would change in that lot and that's the power supply.. I'd get a 600W min..
Yes.
The Dell looks like an impressive little system. I especially like how it doesn't have much for bloat-ware installed with it. But for Carrara and many other things that you seem to be wanting to do, the total number of "threads" (from the cpu) is paramount. That Dell has a quad-core Xeon, which I though might be hyperthreaded to eight, but it doesn't.
Many i7 cpus are quad-core hyperthreaded to eight, but some are not. Just select the model number of the processor and copy it to a search. Look for how many cores it has. Right next to that should be the number of threads. Something like 4 physical, 8 logical cores is another way that it might be worded.
You'll also be much better off with the higher (quadrupled) RAM!
I go along with Stezza - the motherboard supports multple high-end graphics cards but that power supply won't. Go to 600 Watt minimum, 750 if you can afford it; this will allow you to add an additional GPU or two down the road for Octane or Iray renders.
Being a hardware and software tech I see the power supply being an issue it will barely run the system, on my system i upgraded from a 500W to a 750W to ensure that all parts have enough power to function properly.
There are power use calculators available but you are either underpowered or just cutting the line.
Also I would suggest if you can afford a bit more after the power supply that you change the water cooler for the CPU from the H60 to the H100i, this utilizes two 120 mm fans to keep the CPU even cooler which if you are running long renders then it ies best to keep the CPU as cool as possible. total radiator size is 240 mm.
If possible I would then suggest a case such as NZXT Phantom 410 Steel Mid Tower Case, it is a bit cheaper and also is easily able to accomidate the H100i cooler in the top as the case is designed for liquid cooling, andcomes in different colors if that is important
http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=6_112&item_id=048245
The rest looks good.
It si close to what i built for my self. With the larger liquid cooler my CPU rendring an animation for 24 hrs did not go above 60 degrees F shich is excelent and will prolong the life of the CPU.
The Zeon CPU is a server grade CPU and designed to run 24/7 in servers.
Thank you all. Appreciate the help! Evil, I agree now...I am abandoning the Dell in favour of the PC Specialist build. To be honest, it's not that much more. And I can keep the Dell I have for some daily grind work vs 3D work. I always start out with good intentions with a new machine to NOT clutter it up. Reality is that never lasts for long. Oh well, I will try to do better as I want this build to last me a LONG time. I will have to eat the VAT (sales tax) on this, so that inflates the price for me (at the bottom)
I upped the power supply in red below. Oddly, when I originally chose a 500W one originally before I posted here before, the build wizard's "conflict" message popped up and said I only needed the 450. So when I put this one in, the message popped up again that I didn't need it and they were "just trying to save me money". But I prefer your advice, Stezza and Namffuak. Thanks!
Thanks, Dart, As to this CPU, I researched and found it does have hyperthreading so that, as I sort of understand it at a very basic level, means that the four cores are split into eight "logical" cores. Good for multi-tasking. I can't really even surf the net whilst rendering now with my Intel Core i7 860 @ 2.80GHz. Several reviews say this one runs hot. The build wizard did not cue me to get any additional fan stuff when I chose the i7 Quad Core Processor i7-4790k . The reviewer on the site link below tested the performance on the same motherboard as I am getting, an ASUS Z97. If I understand the blurb below, they said that it needed additional air cooling. The build wizard chose the Corsair H60 Hydro Series High Performance CPU Cooler. Is that what is needed? I have seen some of the builds forum members have and it looks like you have masses of fans. They offer extra fan stuff, cases, software to manage them. Too much information! Anyways, here's the review:
ttp://www.expertreviews.co.uk/pcs/cpus/1400300/intel-core-i7-4790k-review (except below)
"We tested the Core i7-4790K in an Asus Z97-Pro motherboard with a SilverStone Argon AR03 air cooler. At its stock speeds, it scored 124 overall in our multimedia benchmarks, which perform a number of intensive desktop tasks such as image processing, video encoding and playing back HD video while performing other intensive tasks. <snip> The processor's improved heat dissipation seems to be effective, as all four cores ran at a solid 4GHz in the multitasking section of our benchmarks. We'd read reports of overclockers getting the i7-4790K up to 5GHz, so we were understandably keen to overclock the chip. With our AR03 air cooler, we managed to get the processor running at 4.7GHz stably on all cores, at which speed our test system produced a great score of 133 overall. Annoyingly, we couldn’t clock the processor any higher without our test system becoming unstable. We may have got seen better results with a liquid cooler, but even on air we were hoping to see 4.8GHz from this chip."
Sorry for the long post...but I'd like to order this tomorrow or Monday with confidence. Hope my credit card goes through!!!
Thank you, again, Chohole and Simon for recommending PC Specialist. And thanks Jag and Tango for your 2p as well.
Case FRACTAL DEFINE R5 BLACK QUIET MID-TOWER CASE
Processor (CPU) Intel® Core™i7 Quad Core Processor i7-4790k (4.0GHz) 8MB Cache
Motherboard ASUS® Z97 WS - ATX, USB 3.0, SATA 6 GB/s
Memory (RAM) 32GB HyperX FURY DUAL-DDR3 1600MHz (4 x 8GB)
Graphics Card PNY QUADRO K2200 - 4GB GDDR5, 640 CUDA Cores - 2 x DP, 1 x DVI
2nd Graphics Card NONE
3rd Graphics Card NONE
1st Hard Disk 240GB HyperX SAVAGE SSD, SATA 6 Gb/s (upto 560MB/sR | 530MB/sW)
2nd Hard Disk 2TB 3.5" SATA-III 6GB/s HDD 7200RPM 64MB CACHE
3rd Hard Disk NONE
4th Hard Disk NONE
M.2 SSD Drive NONE
1st PCI-E SSD Drive NONE
2nd PCI-E SSD Drive NONE
RAID NONE
1st DVD/BLU-RAY Drive 24x DUAL LAYER DVD WRITER ±R/±RW/RAM
2nd DVD/BLU-RAY Drive NONE
Memory Card Reader NONE
Power Supply CORSAIR 650W VS SERIES™ VS-650 POWER SUPPLY
Processor Cooling Corsair H60 Hydro Series High Performance CPU Cooler
Thermal Paste STANDARD THERMAL PASTE FOR SUFFICIENT COOLING
Fan Controller NONE
Extra Case Fans NONE
LED Lighting NONE
Sound Card ONBOARD 8 CHANNEL (7.1) HIGH DEF AUDIO (AS STANDARD)
Wireless/Wired Networking 2 x ONBOARD 10/100/1000 GIGABIT LAN PORTS
Wireless Router/HomePlugs NONE
USB Options MIN. 2 x USB 3.0 & 4 x USB 2.0 PORTS @ BACK PANEL + MIN. 2 FRONT PORTS
TV Card NONE
Power Cable 1 x 1 Metre UK Power Cable (Kettle Lead)
Operating System Genuine Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit w/SP1 - inc DVD & Licence
DVD Recovery Media Windows 7 Professional (64-bit) DVD with paper sleeve
Office Software NO OFFICE SOFTWARE
Anti-Virus BULLGUARD INTERNET SECURITY - FREE 90 DAY TRIAL
Monitor AOC I2769VM 27" IPS Monitor - 5ms, 1920x1080, D-Sub, HDMI, DP
2nd Monitor NONE
3rd Monitor NONE
4th Monitor NONE
Monitor Cables 1 x 2 METRE GOLD PLATED V1.4 HDMI CABLE
Eyefinity Adapter / GeForce 3D Vision NONE
Keyboard & Mouse NONE
Mouse NONE
Game Streaming NONE
Gaming Mouse Pad NONE
Games Controller NONE
Speakers NONE
Webcam Microsoft LifeCam HD-3000
Headsets NONE
Surge Protection NONE
Cable Tidy PCS 1.5M Zip Cable Tidy - Professional Cable Management
Printer NONE
External Hard Drive NONE
Warranty 3 Year Standard Warranty (1 Month Collect & Return, 1 Year Parts, 3 Year Labour)
Home Installation NONE
Delivery STANDARD INSURED DELIVERY TO UK MAINLAND (MON-FRI)
Build Time Standard Build - Approximately 8 to 10 working days
Pricing Information
Price (excluding VAT) £1,510.00
£1,812.00
Price with EEEEK!
Thanks, Chickenman... I was prepping and tidying this overly long post and hadn't seen yours yet. Will look at the cooler stuff now. Cheers, SileneUK
Just have to make sure that the case will handle the cooler you choose.
Looking at the case you have selected it does not allow good air movement if you go with the NZXt 410 cas for 79 beside it it will hold the H100i cooler no porblem and you can add other fans to properly cool the case Motherboard, graphics card HDD's as required.
Hi Chickenman,
OK I chose the H100i cooler. So the one that is just below that in price/model, the H80i GT isn't any good? I was looking at the size difference.
The case you recommend is 516mm x 215mm x 523mm (Approx H x W x D)
That is going to be a very tight fit in my desk's compartment. I will have to take the back off the CPU compartment as it's not getting very good circulation as it is now. Not a structural problem to do that. But the area is only 500 +/-mm front to back. Whatever I was getting would hang out the back a bit which is fine as my desk is not up tight against a wall. I am limited to 245mm width.
What about the one next to it, COOLERMASTER CM690 III ADVANCED CASE which is 507mm x 230mm x 502mm (Approx H x W x D) I don't care about the ugly green trim or anything.
I am still getting a heads up saying I only need a 450W power supply... so am losing faith in the build-wizard. It's dark here now and I will get under the desk in the morning and double-check the measurements and see what can be adjusted.
Cheers for your help.
SileneUK
The difference is it only has one fan to cool where as the H100i has 2 fans which move alot more air allowing the radiator to vent more heat.
The CM690 Case would work as they can still mount the H100i in the top of the case in the 2 fan position. It has lots of places to add extra fans which helps with cooling.
That sounds good... so will go for the CM690.
Tomorrow I will just re-measure to be sure I am not missing something. I am also going to take the door off the front as well. It's a very desky looking computer station, but it's behind the sofa which is my designated office area and out of sight, so appearance isn't a biggie.
I never close the door anyways as I always need to be faffing with the front. Most of the USB posts on this old machine do not work. Had to get a mains powered hub a couple of years ago and this probably annoys me more than anything some days.
Time for wine... thank you again!
why a quadro and not a 980 or 970?
do you realy need a pro card.
just note that 970 memory is fast
for the first 3.5 gb
and slow for the last 0.5 gb.
Hi Schlomi, The build wizard I used was geared for a professional workstation so those GeForce options did not come up. I did research the 970/980, but they appeared (from the Nvidia site) to be more geared to gaming performance and creating game content. The 970 is less expensive than the quadro, but the 980 is more. So I guess I am now in the middle. With the help I have so far, I think I will have a workstation that should last me a few years..... I hope. Thanks for posting though... every bit of knowledge helps.
Cheers,
SileneUK
yes they are geared for gaming.
i have a 970 and it wroks with carrara.
today's pro and gaming card are built from similar hardware.
the main difference is the driver, you can't put a pro diver on a gaming card as the driver see's the hardware.
games use direct x for on screen 3d viewport, pro software use opengl, but some use direct x also.
the gaming dirver cut down the opengl performance alot, maybe to 1/10th of the hardware's ability.
also pro dirvers are made to fit specific pro software so it will work without visual errors.
also when using your card for computing, a pro card can do double precision not just single.
also pro cards are made to run heavy loads longer, the are made from better parts.
photoshop use nvidia cards' computig for some tasks, iray and octane compute on nvidia cards.
but for the same price a gaming card, of the same generation, will compute much faster.
if it have the memory to run the task.
in octane 970 maybe twice as fast as a k2200.
but if you need to render in iray or octane for a long time you might need a quadro.
I am more inclined to wanting to have detailed and high quality renders vs having fast render times geared for "action" scenes in games. I have tried to educate myself on this. It's a tough subject for a novice, but I feel comfortable with a professional workstation build. I need to feel comfortable that the card will have enough strength to deal with complex scenes (lots of trees, foliage, natural looking shaders). And then I am also working a lot with Carrara dynamic hair. Also, some day if I can afford it after this (gasp!) I may need to move on to Zbrush for creating characters. But that is at least another year away. I am hoping I can make Carrara a more powerful tool by moving it to a gut-sier machine. I also hope to get into some of the other software I have picked up over time that helps with creating terrains, etc.
But thank you for making me think about this again...