SSS map Creation for DAZ Studio
marth_e
Posts: 180
in The Commons
I'd like to know how to create SSS maps for DAZ Studio. I've noticed that in many cases, the SSS map is essentially the same as the diffuse map, but it appears to be slightly desaturated. Is this correct? What would be the rule for creating an SSS map from a diffuse map?
Thanks in advance,
Martha
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Comments
"correct" is a loose interpretation when it comes to shader settings. There are many ways to achieve realistic skin tones.
Technically a desaturated SSS layer would be the opposite of how it should be done, the diffuse layer really should be more desaturated and pull the tones out of the SSS (or more properly in iray "translucency"....I would use that over SSS) layer.
The method I found works best is that the diffuse layer has a basic skin look, and the translucency layer has added tones of pinks and blues and such as you would find below the skin on a person...and let them shine through and add tone to the texture.
but...like I said...there are many ways to achieve realistic looks....my method is just one such
(the end result in renders is what defines how "right" an approach is)
But isn't it suppose to be of reddish tones instead of being desaturated?
That depends on how they made the other maps and hooked them in. Things can be balanced in different ways
So basically what RawArt said :D There's a dozen different ways it can be done. You can go for closest to reality, you can go for rendering speed that looks good, etc. I've done it sometimes (not in products sold) where I don't put any diffuse map in and only use translucency. It gives an interesting effect, but really it's a combination of all the maps that matters. Generally, whatever is on the translucency is going to make your skin richer and darker, so a lot of folks dial the saturation back a lot so they can use a diffuse closer to what will render. And heck, even that depends on how much translucency you use. Generally speaking, find a skin you like, and do it like that.
Thank you RawArt, ChangelingChick. Thanks for the info and tips, I appreciate it.
In addition to SSS maps and Translucency settings, the final rendering effect also depends on surface properties of Transmission and Scattering. Even with a B/W SSS map or no SSS map, you still can make lots of effects and subtle / dramatic change on skins.
There are so many ways of handling this. Take a look at the skin settings for the characters with "desaturated textures", you will probably find some strong colors used in the SSS settings. That is where a lot of the color comes from.
Take a look at characters that do more of the opposite approach.
I have seen characters that have purple looking textures that render super white because of the settings they used.
You are free to experiment, and who knows, maybe you can find a solution that tops what PAs have done. It took years for people to devise a setup that really works, and a lot more people just use settings that are based on what has worked in the past. But that doesn't mean a better way is impossible. You can try adding textures to the SSS sections instead of using straight color, which I have seen a few times.
I'd always learned that SSS maps traditionally should use grayscale textures to indicate *where* subsurface should be visible (such as the ears, cheeks, nose, fingers, etc), but I also seem to be the only one in this entire community that does so, so like others have said, do whatever works for you.
For weight, yes. Not for color. A lot of folks did that with 3DL mats, and early iray mats and would then put a color in the channel, but it's really not a good way to go on the color maps. Typically if a channel takes a color map, it should use a color map. Grayscale should only be used in weights.
Another way to look at it is what each layer of the shader equates to. The diffuse/base acts as the epidermis, and the translucency color acts as the dermis (and the hypodermis should be reflected in this color as well).
Love to see some layouts of how published artists set up their maps. The node system in Poser made it easier to share or show setup's but in DS not sure how that would be accomplished. Examples of say Rawn's maps compared to ChainglingChicks SSS maps and so on. It's all very interesting to me and I'm sure others!
that would likely confuse people more....we all are essentially self taught, so we learn our own tricks to make things look good (as to what we consider good)....and will be totally different approaches than other pa's. the subtlties and nuances in the individual maps may be hard to notice.
Plus....its also a constant experimentation. How I set things up now is different than it was a year ago......and also per character things change too depending on the look.
Basically, I try to do what Daz does.
Of course, but you can usually just set a deep reddish color or whatever best suits your character. I think either using grayscale maps or baked thickness maps to determine where SSS should be is more important than the color. The way DAZ does it works, but I'm getting tired of every character being SO FREAKING RED out of the box.
Very quick way to reduce redness:
Go to transmission color, lower Value of it by 5-10.
Adjust to taste.
Daz create the shaders, so emulating their set up for Daz Originals is a good place to start if you are using the same shader set up. I use a slightly different shader set up than most vendors however.
Beyond what has already been said by others, one principle I use is iterate constantly in Substance Painter while rendering in Daz Studio. So it's highly empirical trial-and-error process as much as it is theoretical (although understanding principles are obviously foundational).
Also, when people say SSS Map, i assume they refer mostly to Translucency Color maps, not SSS Mask. Obviously that changes the feedback we would give...
I see artists putting translucency weight maps on mouth sockets and eye sockets etc, but not so much elsewhere. I guess people are generally satisfied with how the SSS is calculated automatically. I would be curious to see examples of what problem weight maps for SSS corrects in Daz Studio.
The equivalent of the nodes for our stuff are the same-- we use the same shaders generally. Studio has a different interface setup for it, but it's effectively the same as the node system. The node tree in Poser is the Shader Mixer in DS. I forget the name of it in Poser, but (last I looked at it) the simple setup on the left (in my interface at the time) where you just plug in the maps is the equivalent of the surfaces pane in DS. But if you want to compare our settings on the nodes, you can always just load up our characters and compare :D But as RawArt mentioned, it changes, so if you compared my Reagan character to Lily to Esmerelda (who has 2 setups) to Alenia, you're gonna see a lot of changes.
The problem with doing it like that is that you get the same tone over the entire map, and that's not true to skin really at all. There are areas where the yellow fat comes through more, blue from veins or hair comes through or red underlying skin and blood comes through more. There are some great references available for undertone colors online, but while that can look ok on a distant or background character, it's not something you really want to do for a close up or portrait.
Another case of more than one to skin a cat-- err character :D You can also lower the translucency weight, add a teeny bit or blue or green to the translucency color, etc. You can even *up* the red saturation of the SSS Color under transmission to cancel out the red (seriously, load in V9's skin and up that SSS Color saturation to 249, but not 255 ;) ). But yeah, there's a ton of ways to address the redness without resorting to flat color over a grayscale map. That gives you, effectively, the same results as the grayscale map with a color layer set to multiply over it in Photoshop (if you want to look at what the engine is seeing there).
With all this talk about PBR this and that, I find it a bit odd that everybody expects SS to behave in a physically plausible way but no-one questions the fact that DS models are empty shells...
I made skeleton wereables for my characters some year ago and started to get more plausible results, so now always adding them for close renders. (3DL PT shaders, not IRay. The volumetric effect is basically the same in both renderers, since physically based.)
In any event, interesting topic;)
And that's true as well, but I don't understand how a slightly desaturated and lighter base color map gives accurate subsurface scattering either. I've seen Blender users run a face diffuse map through color corrective nodes to make it extremely red and orange in some areas and less in others, and at least that makes sense. Substance Painter can create thickness maps from baking that help with making more accurate SSS as well. The DAZ methods, while they certainly can give good results, just don't make a lot of practical sense to me after seeing how professionals work.
Daz Methods and Substance Painter are not mutually exclusive, though - PAs use a variety of tools, and many of them have Substance Painter.
Which is all the more reason why I don't understand some of the texture maps we're getting. ;) Anyway, there's no sense in debating this; it really is up to the invididual, the specific artwork, and your preferred method. I'm going to go back to debating whether I should buy the Death 9 bundle.
texture maps are created for the specific shader or otherwise the shader is adapted for the specific maps. I am sure the maps we are getting make some sense within that framework, as opposed to adhering inflexibly to some arbitrary approach used by professionals, and asusming that is the gold standard, when those artists are probably using a completely different shader or adapting that shader to their maps in their own way. Trying to apply this 'standard' across all shaders without adjustment might not be fit for purpose
Exactly :D Early on (for example) the grayscale SSS maps in translucency color for Iray were just that-- vendors trying to use their 3DL shader maps in the new Iray shader. There's a way to setup substance to render closer to what Daz does, but I forget the setup. I just saved it out, but it's what I use when I paint a new skin so I can work on every map/layer at once.