Why do you use Strand Based Hair?

BlueFingers

I struggle to see any upside in using Strand Based Hair, they require more resources and getting lighting right in Iray-preview is a lot harder. But I might be missing something, can someone tell me what the best case scenario is for using Strand Based hair?

Oso3D

Personally, I find it can look better (less segmented than strips, less tiled looking), and with the right settings the lighting is great. Also strand can be lighter, resource wise, than the better quality fibermesh hairs.

 

cathan01_wwg1wga

I agree with Osa3D. Been practicing the SBH editor recently to make manes and tails for the HiveWire3D Horse and LittleFox's The Unicorn as I find the older transmapped manes look awkward at high resolutions (I try to render out between 8000 and 10000 pixel size these days). It was intimidating at first, but got easier the longer I practised with the editor. With the right clumping settings, I can even get toon/ anime styles.

Also, SBH and LAMH (Look At My Hair) cut down on postwork time i used to spend on editing transmapped animal hairs and furs. 

Sevrin

Best case scenario is probably fur.  I mostly avoid it for people, since there are a lot of transmapped hair props that look really good and are easier to work with.

BlueFingers

Okay,...so I might be using my SBH items wrong, and they need tweaking before using them in a render, or I am using not so great SBH items (hair as in hair for a character on top of their head) in a way they are not meant to be used (close-up).

Do you need to tweak the SBH before rendering? And what are some SBH items you can recommend so I can get a better idea?

UncannyValet

As a hair system, SBH is very lacking compared to other hair systems for other softwares, especially true for the version of the SBH Editor that all Daz Studio users have access to.  The vendor version that PA's can use to create products has slightly more features, but I can only assume still desperately needs upgrades.

With that said, what else do we have? Hair cards/cloth hair have their drawbacks too.

SBH is good for making dense hair, and recent updates made rendering smooth curves a lot less intensive on VRAM.

Daz should invest more development to bring SBH in line with other hair systems like Xgen, Blender's hair, Ornatrix, etc.  Or at least make the Garibaldi architecture more transparent so others can improve it.  Even just having the ability to add new guide strands would greatly enhance styling capabilities for users. As would adding more randomization options to be more like xgen, so you can easily create flyaways. Of course letting users actually create dForce SBH would be nice too...

I realise Daz has to be close-fisted with their software IP (like HD morphs, dforce SBH etc) as that's how they make money, but at some point this over-protectiveness seems unhealthy and self-defeating at the margins.  It's not like Poser is going to come back to life and steal their user base.

Edit: attached an example of SBH. 

 

BlueFingers

@UncannyValet: That looks fantastic and not anything like the hair props I have. Also forvgive me, that hair had me a bit fascinated so I did a bit of a search and found your DA gallery. I had a bit of a look at your hair stuff and have to admit, those really impressived me!

That kind of leads me to think the items I have are just not that great.

chevybabe25

My favorite subject, so I can't help but add my opinion :)

I absolutely love it!  It has had some huge improvements with curves and shaders, so hair is a lot lighter. No more bald spots, no more jagged edges.. just beautiful hair!   I can make much more convincing, detailed styles, along with the ability to work with or without simulation.  Examples with the new shader and the lightweight curves:

https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-feisty-feather-bun-hair-for-genesis-9

https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-bodacious-bob-hair-for-genesis-9

 

 

 

FSMCDesigns

chevybabe25 said:

My favorite subject, so I can't help but add my opinion :)

I absolutely love it!  It has had some huge improvements with curves and shaders, so hair is a lot lighter. No more bald spots, no more jagged edges.. just beautiful hair!   I can make much more convincing, detailed styles, along with the ability to work with or without simulation.  Examples with the new shader and the lightweight curves:

https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-feisty-feather-bun-hair-for-genesis-9 ;

https://www.daz3d.com/dforce-bodacious-bob-hair-for-genesis-9

 

 

 

You forgot the most important one https://www.daz3d.com/line-zero-dforce-strand-hair-shaders

 To the OP, personally I use SBH only if it is dynamic since I need hair to lay realistically in many different poses, some extreme. I don't even purchase hair any more if it is not FULLY dynamic.

memcneil70

I love strand base hair and follow chevybabe25's guidance carefully. But, depending upon what I am doing, how tired I am, what computer I am on, I may use any type of hair if it meets the needs of the moment. (Slap on a simple transmap hair, simple outfit, test poses or a tutorial, get it done. No art considered, I am practicing.) When I am inspired, I get picky about hair.

Gordig

I've always thought that transmapped hair looked off, and I almost exclusively buy and use SBH dForce hair. These days I really only use DS as a platform for exporting content to C4D and Houdini, which have much more powerful hair editing tools, so it's much easier to get the look and movement I want.

Gordig

Also, like FSMC, I started using dForce hair because I do a lot of unconventional posing, and I couldn't rely on mesh hair to have the morphs necessary to make it look natural and convincing.

sid

UncannyValet said:

As a hair system, SBH is very lacking compared to other hair systems for other softwares, especially true for the version of the SBH Editor that all Daz Studio users have access to.  The vendor version that PA's can use to create products has slightly more features, but I can only assume still desperately needs upgrades.

With that said, what else do we have? Hair cards/cloth hair have their drawbacks too.

SBH is good for making dense hair, and recent updates made rendering smooth curves a lot less intensive on VRAM.

Daz should invest more development to bring SBH in line with other hair systems like Xgen, Blender's hair, Ornatrix, etc.  Or at least make the Garibaldi architecture more transparent so others can improve it.  Even just having the ability to add new guide strands would greatly enhance styling capabilities for users. As would adding more randomization options to be more like xgen, so you can easily create flyaways. Of course letting users actually create dForce SBH would be nice too...

I realise Daz has to be close-fisted with their software IP (like HD morphs, dforce SBH etc) as that's how they make money, but at some point this over-protectiveness seems unhealthy and self-defeating at the margins.  It's not like Poser is going to come back to life and steal their user base.

Edit: attached an example of SBH. 

 

Loved your shaders for SBH that I picked up on artstation, uncannyvalet.

I'm not a PA, so I only have access to the basic editor, I have this booked marked for each time I need to use it. https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/335676/strand-based-hair-mini-tutorial/p1 if that helps anyone.

I would love better tools. I've gone from getting everything from Daz and Marvelous Designer into Blender, to now getting everything into Daz and rendering now in iray. (Gen 9 HD does not move around easilly). Hair causes me the most trouble in this workflow.

I don't think better tools would eat into Daz's shop income, the kind of people that will spend ages designing their own hair will just do it outside Daz anyway. I'd love them to consider it.

 

UncannyValet

sid said:

UncannyValet said:

As a hair system, SBH is very lacking compared to other hair systems for other softwares, especially true for the version of the SBH Editor that all Daz Studio users have access to.  The vendor version that PA's can use to create products has slightly more features, but I can only assume still desperately needs upgrades.

With that said, what else do we have? Hair cards/cloth hair have their drawbacks too.

SBH is good for making dense hair, and recent updates made rendering smooth curves a lot less intensive on VRAM.

Daz should invest more development to bring SBH in line with other hair systems like Xgen, Blender's hair, Ornatrix, etc.  Or at least make the Garibaldi architecture more transparent so others can improve it.  Even just having the ability to add new guide strands would greatly enhance styling capabilities for users. As would adding more randomization options to be more like xgen, so you can easily create flyaways. Of course letting users actually create dForce SBH would be nice too...

I realise Daz has to be close-fisted with their software IP (like HD morphs, dforce SBH etc) as that's how they make money, but at some point this over-protectiveness seems unhealthy and self-defeating at the margins.  It's not like Poser is going to come back to life and steal their user base.

Edit: attached an example of SBH. 

 

I'm not a PA, so I only have access to the basic editor, I have this booked marked for each time I need to use it. https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/335676/strand-based-hair-mini-tutorial/p1 if that helps anyone.

 I made a tutorial also, although it's not very succint: https://www.deviantart.com/uncannyvalet/journal/Creating-Strand-Based-Hair-Daz-Studio-957594505

Choppski

I love it for bodyhair. Love it. Much less resource intensive than fiber body hair which always seems like adding a secong model in. And while I am no good at head hair, I'm getting ok with body hair and some facial hair, so I like having more options to get what I want.

AllenArt

UncannyValet said:

sid said:

UncannyValet said:

As a hair system, SBH is very lacking compared to other hair systems for other softwares, especially true for the version of the SBH Editor that all Daz Studio users have access to.  The vendor version that PA's can use to create products has slightly more features, but I can only assume still desperately needs upgrades.

With that said, what else do we have? Hair cards/cloth hair have their drawbacks too.

SBH is good for making dense hair, and recent updates made rendering smooth curves a lot less intensive on VRAM.

Daz should invest more development to bring SBH in line with other hair systems like Xgen, Blender's hair, Ornatrix, etc.  Or at least make the Garibaldi architecture more transparent so others can improve it.  Even just having the ability to add new guide strands would greatly enhance styling capabilities for users. As would adding more randomization options to be more like xgen, so you can easily create flyaways. Of course letting users actually create dForce SBH would be nice too...

I realise Daz has to be close-fisted with their software IP (like HD morphs, dforce SBH etc) as that's how they make money, but at some point this over-protectiveness seems unhealthy and self-defeating at the margins.  It's not like Poser is going to come back to life and steal their user base.

Edit: attached an example of SBH. 

 

I'm not a PA, so I only have access to the basic editor, I have this booked marked for each time I need to use it. https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/335676/strand-based-hair-mini-tutorial/p1 if that helps anyone.

 I made a tutorial also, although it's not very succint: https://www.deviantart.com/uncannyvalet/journal/Creating-Strand-Based-Hair-Daz-Studio-957594505

I have all your hair so far. LOVE it. I'll check out your tutorial :)

WendyLuvsCatz

it's good for fur IMO and since I don't even simulate the PA SBH for fur I can use it myself to make my own with no issues either

head hair I like clothbased because I can tweak and edit it, PA hairs that is, (as well as make my own but that is rare)  I will only use the SBH editor for updos, buns, etc that don't need simulation myself (because obviously I cannot )

otherwise I use Fibermesh with morphs I animate but again rare, I create little bits and bobs like wisps for under hoods mostly when I cannot find something in my huge library of DAZ hairs!

I do use Standbased in Filament but it has a habit of disappearing in animation

as it is the only feature that is good about it is simulation for animation but since DAZ limits what can be done there I mostly just use Carrara with it's dynamic hair instead

because 99% of my uses for hair are unconventional, not something one can buy ie grasses, rugs etc (want for specific uses on terrains etc so no PA product)

I will always buy geometry based hairs especialy AprilYSH hairs 

Masterstroke

Try buying newer SBHs. The first releases looked horrible, but vendores have learned over time. The latest dforece SBHairs look quite acceptable, given that hair is almost always the week spot of a render..
 

BlueFingers

Masterstroke said:

Try buying newer SBHs. The first releases looked horrible, but vendores have learned over time. The latest dforece SBHairs look quite acceptable, given that hair is almost always the week spot of a render..
 

I think you mght be right and  formed my opinion on some of the earlier products. I guess better have a look at those shaders to see if they can improve things.

Hylas

I have a slight preference for polygonal over SBH just because the la

kyoto kid

...love strand based hair (originally bought and worked with Garibaldi Express when that was released), However I need to wait until I can upgrade to get more "horsepower" as running a dForce hair sim tends to be more demanding on my system's resources compared to dForce clothing.  Even with a 12 GB Titan-X, Linday's  Primavera Hair and Classic Long Curly Hair take about 20 min for a sim to finish (and that is if it doesn't  crash my display driver first).

Gordig

Neither of those hairs are strand-based.

chris-2599934

The most annoying thing about SBH, in my opinion, is that they called it "dforce hair," meaning there's confusion between strand-based dforce hair, and transmapped hair which uses the dforce cloth engine to let gravity do its thing (which is what the Linday hairs tend to be, I believe).

Personally, I rarely use it. I think the best transmapped hairs - Outoftouch, Windfield, etc. still look better than strand based hairs do (though I have to admit that my opinions of the latter are mostly formed from early examples). They're also easier to use across multiple generations of Genesis figure, which is something I do a lot of.

Gordig

chris-2599934 said:

The most annoying thing about SBH, in my opinion, is that they called it "dforce hair," meaning there's confusion between strand-based dforce hair, and transmapped hair which uses the dforce cloth engine to let gravity do its thing (which is what the Linday hairs tend to be, I believe).

And then there are Toyen's hairs, which are SBH but not necessarily dForce.

MelissaGT

I like it for fur, but I don't like it for hair. I have a number of SBH hairs from different PA's and I've uninstalled pretty much all because none of them look good. It doesn't look like hair. It looks like straw. I'm glad a lot of PA's have gone back to transmapped hair. 

Sven Dullah

I just wish I were able to use SBH with 3DL PT shaders but due to the weird UV-mapping design they don't work. A shame, since they render so unbelievably fast compared to complex transmapped hair.

Masterstroke

chris-2599934 said:

The most annoying thing about SBH, in my opinion, is that they called it "dforce hair," meaning there's confusion between strand-based dforce hair, and transmapped hair which uses the dforce cloth engine to let gravity do its thing (which is what the Linday hairs tend to be, I believe).

Personally, I rarely use it. I think the best transmapped hairs - Outoftouch, Windfield, etc. still look better than strand based hairs do (though I have to admit that my opinions of the latter are mostly formed from early examples). They're also easier to use across multiple generations of Genesis figure, which is something I do a lot of.

I am so with you here,
plus I wish Outoftouch and Windfield hairs had dforce features. 

mtl1

chris-2599934 said:

The most annoying thing about SBH, in my opinion, is that they called it "dforce hair," meaning there's confusion between strand-based dforce hair, and transmapped hair which uses the dforce cloth engine to let gravity do its thing (which is what the Linday hairs tend to be, I believe).

Personally, I rarely use it. I think the best transmapped hairs - Outoftouch, Windfield, etc. still look better than strand based hairs do (though I have to admit that my opinions of the latter are mostly formed from early examples). They're also easier to use across multiple generations of Genesis figure, which is something I do a lot of.

Most products that are strand-based will have preview dufs in their file list, so they're easily identifiable.

Also, transmapped hair have a certain look -- as well as strand-based hair.

 

edit: There are ways to make non-dForce hair dForceable. It just takes a bit of tweaking.

MelissaGT

mtl1 said:

chris-2599934 said:

The most annoying thing about SBH, in my opinion, is that they called it "dforce hair," meaning there's confusion between strand-based dforce hair, and transmapped hair which uses the dforce cloth engine to let gravity do its thing (which is what the Linday hairs tend to be, I believe).

Personally, I rarely use it. I think the best transmapped hairs - Outoftouch, Windfield, etc. still look better than strand based hairs do (though I have to admit that my opinions of the latter are mostly formed from early examples). They're also easier to use across multiple generations of Genesis figure, which is something I do a lot of.

edit: There are ways to make non-dForce hair dForceable. It just takes a bit of tweaking.

I do this quite a bit, but I have never been able to get an OOT hair to work with dforce...ever. Would love to see what settings people are using on it to work if they have done it successfully. AprilYSH non-dforce hair is usually the easiest to get to work.  

WendyLuvsCatz

https://www.daz3d.com/fe-cute-dynamic-short-hair-for-genesis-9

well this just confuses stuff further

obviously not strandbased but instead of Dforce now calling Dynamic?

felis

WendyLuvsCatz said:

https://www.daz3d.com/fe-cute-dynamic-short-hair-for-genesis-9

well this just confuses stuff further

obviously not strandbased but instead of Dforce now calling Dynamic?

I was also somewhat puzzled about the naming.

It doesn't mention dForce, so I wonder if "dynamic" just covers over some morphs.