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Sun-Sky render - How to see the sun and cloud placement

davesodaveso Posts: 7,008
edited August 21 in The Commons

I've watched videos, read forum posts, on and on over the past, but for whatever I cannot remember how to make the sun visible when using the sun-sky rendering mode. I know it isn't that difficult. 
CAN SOMEONE PROVIDE A STEP BY STEP METHOD HOW TO SEE THE SUN, HOW TO CONTROL ITS POSITION WITH A BIT OF PRECISION, AND HOW TO PLACE IT EXACTLY WHERE YOU WANT IT. 
Thank you very much. It would be so good to just have the ability to do this as needed.

OH!  an off question ... is the sun within the sky dome or behind it?

The 2nd question regards VDB clouds. How far back or whatever do the clouds have to be in order to look realistic? 

 

Post edited by daveso on

Comments

  • paulawp (marahzen)paulawp (marahzen) Posts: 1,371

    Are you speaking to using it in Ultrascenery?

  • davesodaveso Posts: 7,008

    paulawp (marahzen) said:

    Are you speaking to using it in Ultrascenery?

    in any render, but for sure I would use this in Ultrascenery. I like to use sun-sky for outside renders. Its a lot more realistic overall.  

  • paulawp (marahzen)paulawp (marahzen) Posts: 1,371
    edited August 21

    Hmm, I thought I had a discussion with screen shots somewhere, but I don't really see anything I ever wrote up with much detail. 

    Basically, on the matter of sun placement, there's one of two things I'm trying to accomplish - either lighting and shadows where I specifically want them:

    Or some specific lighting effect:

    It's time for me to go to work, but after work, I'll try to come up with a few notes.

    Post edited by paulawp (marahzen) on
  • ElorElor Posts: 1,483

    daveso said:

    CAN SOMEONE PROVIDE A STEP BY STEP METHOD HOW TO SEE THE SUN, HOW TO CONTROL ITS POSITION WITH A BIT OF PRECISION, AND HOW TO PLACE IT EXACTLY WHERE YOU WANT IT. 
    Thank you very much. It would be so good to just have the ability to do this as needed.

    Getting the sun visible is explained relatively early in the video from what I remember:

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 9,940
    edited August 21

    Elor said:

    daveso said:

    CAN SOMEONE PROVIDE A STEP BY STEP METHOD HOW TO SEE THE SUN, HOW TO CONTROL ITS POSITION WITH A BIT OF PRECISION, AND HOW TO PLACE IT EXACTLY WHERE YOU WANT IT. 
    Thank you very much. It would be so good to just have the ability to do this as needed.

    Getting the sun visible is explained relatively early in the video from what I remember:

    About 21:00 and forward. 

    Post edited by Taoz on
  • paulawp (marahzen)paulawp (marahzen) Posts: 1,371
    edited August 22

    I've watched a bit of the linked video and it definitely looks like there's a lot of good info in there. So I'll just add some specific notes related to my general experience, with a focus on Ultrascenery and these example images I included. (All of my comments regard the use of Sun-Sky Only. I've actually never tinkered with Dome and Scene with the map removed, as in the example in the video.)

    Here's the Environment settings for my first example, the girl at the bridge.

    As discussed in the video, you need to set the viewport view to NVIDIA Iray to see the sun and sky. Then to position the sun, use Dome Rotation in conjunction with other settings as appropriate: particularly SS Day and SS Time, but also consider SS Latitude and SS Longitude.

    Just as a for-instance, this is a new render with everything else the same, except I moved the rotation to 48.19. It gives an entirely different look to this bridge - a fun alternative if letting the direct light fall on the girl's face wasn't what I had envisioned.

    Here's something that's important to mention. If you're using the original Ultrascenery - as is the case with the sunset image, which I created a couple of years ago - do not just switch to NVIDIA Iray view without preparing the scene items. I'm running a decent system - an RTX 3090 - and it will stagger to a standstill if I do that.

    What you do is expand the Ultrascene -> UltraScene Terrain and then make invisible all but the relevant USC objects - the Proxies and usually trees, if you're looking for sun and shadow placement. Look to the panel at right, where I've made various ground layers invisible, leaving the trees visible. (There are actually a bunch more ground layers in this particular ecology, but I deleted them to get this screen shot.) 

    Notice the SS Time: 7:48pm. The actual sun disk is just below the horizon at the center of the screen; if I back off, minute by minute, the entire lighting changes with every minute. The sun disk becomes clearly visible by about 7:45 pm. 

    Here's the actual sun in view, at 7:40pm.

    The cloud off in the distance in this image is one of the Stonemason VDB clouds:

    https://www.daz3d.com/volumetric-clouds-for-iray

    There are other vdb clouds that are perfectly nice, but that's what this one happens to be from. I've used this set often and I like them, but be alert that adding them will reset some of the environment settings. If you use this cloud set, use them before you fine-tune the environment.

    The clouds also start off in a spot that is likely way out of camera view. The cloud here has x/y/z settings of -15000/-101000/-50000. Don't be surprised if you have to move vdb clouds way, way, way away from the foreground, depending on the effect you're looking for. 

    I'm going to add some notes about Ultrascenery 2 in a different post ...

    Bridge-Example.jpg
    1436 x 938 - 309K
    Bridge-48-19.jpg
    1000 x 800 - 452K
    USC-Sunset.jpg
    1919 x 1002 - 437K
    Sunset-7-40.jpg
    1300 x 1000 - 953K
    Post edited by paulawp (marahzen) on
  • NorthOf45NorthOf45 Posts: 5,486

    Try using the Sundial (Render Presets/Iray). Set the Environment/Dome/Sun-Sky/Direction/SS Sun Node to the Sun on the Sundial node. The Sun Chain controls will set the elevation and azimuth (basically height and direction). The arrow will point to the sun, so you can position it where you want. Much easier than using Lat/Long and Time settings. Default Environment and Tone Mapping will basically wash out the sun, but you can adjust them to actually see a disc.

  • davesodaveso Posts: 7,008

    Taoz said:

    Elor said:

    daveso said:

    CAN SOMEONE PROVIDE A STEP BY STEP METHOD HOW TO SEE THE SUN, HOW TO CONTROL ITS POSITION WITH A BIT OF PRECISION, AND HOW TO PLACE IT EXACTLY WHERE YOU WANT IT. 
    Thank you very much. It would be so good to just have the ability to do this as needed.

    Getting the sun visible is explained relatively early in the video from what I remember:

    About 21:00 and forward. 

    thank you very much.  

  • davesodaveso Posts: 7,008

    NorthOf45 said:

    Try using the Sundial (Render Presets/Iray). Set the Environment/Dome/Sun-Sky/Direction/SS Sun Node to the Sun on the Sundial node. The Sun Chain controls will set the elevation and azimuth (basically height and direction). The arrow will point to the sun, so you can position it where you want. Much easier than using Lat/Long and Time settings. Default Environment and Tone Mapping will basically wash out the sun, but you can adjust them to actually see a disc.

    i went looking for the sundials, and they are not in my installation. I had seen them in the past. How would I get them back? 

  • davesodaveso Posts: 7,008

    paulawp (marahzen) said:

    I've watched a bit of the linked video and it definitely looks like there's a lot of good info in there. So I'll just add some specific notes related to my general experience, with a focus on Ultrascenery and these example images I included. (All of my comments regard the use of Sun-Sky Only. I've actually never tinkered with Dome and Scene with the map removed, as in the example in the video.)

    Here's the Environment settings for my first example, the girl at the bridge.

    As discussed in the video, you need to set the viewport view to NVIDIA Iray to see the sun and sky. Then to position the sun, use Dome Rotation in conjunction with other settings as appropriate: particularly SS Day and SS Time, but also consider SS Latitude and SS Longitude.

    Just as a for-instance, this is a new render with everything else the same, except I moved the rotation to 48.19. It gives an entirely different look to this bridge - a fun alternative if letting the direct light fall on the girl's face wasn't what I had envisioned.

    Here's something that's important to mention. If you're using the original Ultrascenery - as is the case with the sunset image, which I created a couple of years ago - do not just switch to NVIDIA Iray view without preparing the scene items. I'm running a decent system - an RTX 3090 - and it will stagger to a standstill if I do that.

    What you do is expand the Ultrascene -> UltraScene Terrain and then make invisible all but the relevant USC objects - the Proxies and usually trees, if you're looking for sun and shadow placement. Look to the panel at right, where I've made various ground layers invisible, leaving the trees visible. (There are actually a bunch more ground layers in this particular ecology, but I deleted them to get this screen shot.) 

    Notice the SS Time: 7:48pm. The actual sun disk is just below the horizon at the center of the screen; if I back off, minute by minute, the entire lighting changes with every minute. The sun disk becomes clearly visible by about 7:45 pm. 

    Here's the actual sun in view, at 7:40pm.

    The cloud off in the distance in this image is one of the Stonemason VDB clouds:

    https://www.daz3d.com/volumetric-clouds-for-iray

    There are other vdb clouds that are perfectly nice, but that's what this one happens to be from. I've used this set often and I like them, but be alert that adding them will reset some of the environment settings. If you use this cloud set, use them before you fine-tune the environment.

    The clouds also start off in a spot that is likely way out of camera view. The cloud here has x/y/z settings of -15000/-101000/-50000. Don't be surprised if you have to move vdb clouds way, way, way away from the foreground, depending on the effect you're looking for. 

    I'm going to add some notes about Ultrascenery 2 in a different post ...

    thank you. very good informstion. I kinda thought the clouds would have to be moved way back. Using USCXT is the same.  I have tried using the iray preview and it works as long as not much in scene, but it crashes DS if the USC is populated. I might have been using classic though, which rarely works with the iray preview. I'm running an RTX 4080 so it does fairly well overall.  

  • NorthOf45NorthOf45 Posts: 5,486

    daveso said:

    NorthOf45 said:

    Try using the Sundial (Render Presets/Iray). Set the Environment/Dome/Sun-Sky/Direction/SS Sun Node to the Sun on the Sundial node. The Sun Chain controls will set the elevation and azimuth (basically height and direction). The arrow will point to the sun, so you can position it where you want. Much easier than using Lat/Long and Time settings. Default Environment and Tone Mapping will basically wash out the sun, but you can adjust them to actually see a disc.

    i went looking for the sundials, and they are not in my installation. I had seen them in the past. How would I get them back? 

    Should be part of the Default Resources for DAZ Studio (13176). It will be in the folder I specified ([yourLibrary]/Render Presets/Iray).

  • paulawp (marahzen)paulawp (marahzen) Posts: 1,371

    daveso said:

    paulawp (marahzen) said:

    I've watched a bit of the linked video and it definitely looks like there's a lot of good info in there. So I'll just add some specific notes related to my general experience, with a focus on Ultrascenery and these example images I included. (All of my comments regard the use of Sun-Sky Only. I've actually never tinkered with Dome and Scene with the map removed, as in the example in the video.)

    Here's the Environment settings for my first example, the girl at the bridge.

     

    As discussed in the video, you need to set the viewport view to NVIDIA Iray to see the sun and sky. Then to position the sun, use Dome Rotation in conjunction with other settings as appropriate: particularly SS Day and SS Time, but also consider SS Latitude and SS Longitude.

    Just as a for-instance, this is a new render with everything else the same, except I moved the rotation to 48.19. It gives an entirely different look to this bridge - a fun alternative if letting the direct light fall on the girl's face wasn't what I had envisioned.

     

    Here's something that's important to mention. If you're using the original Ultrascenery - as is the case with the sunset image, which I created a couple of years ago - do not just switch to NVIDIA Iray view without preparing the scene items. I'm running a decent system - an RTX 3090 - and it will stagger to a standstill if I do that.

    What you do is expand the Ultrascene -> UltraScene Terrain and then make invisible all but the relevant USC objects - the Proxies and usually trees, if you're looking for sun and shadow placement. Look to the panel at right, where I've made various ground layers invisible, leaving the trees visible. (There are actually a bunch more ground layers in this particular ecology, but I deleted them to get this screen shot.) 

    Notice the SS Time: 7:48pm. The actual sun disk is just below the horizon at the center of the screen; if I back off, minute by minute, the entire lighting changes with every minute. The sun disk becomes clearly visible by about 7:45 pm. 

    Here's the actual sun in view, at 7:40pm.

     

    The cloud off in the distance in this image is one of the Stonemason VDB clouds:

    https://www.daz3d.com/volumetric-clouds-for-iray

    There are other vdb clouds that are perfectly nice, but that's what this one happens to be from. I've used this set often and I like them, but be alert that adding them will reset some of the environment settings. If you use this cloud set, use them before you fine-tune the environment.

    The clouds also start off in a spot that is likely way out of camera view. The cloud here has x/y/z settings of -15000/-101000/-50000. Don't be surprised if you have to move vdb clouds way, way, way away from the foreground, depending on the effect you're looking for. 

    I'm going to add some notes about Ultrascenery 2 in a different post ...

    thank you. very good informstion. I kinda thought the clouds would have to be moved way back. Using USCXT is the same.  I have tried using the iray preview and it works as long as not much in scene, but it crashes DS if the USC is populated. I might have been using classic though, which rarely works with the iray preview. I'm running an RTX 4080 so it does fairly well overall.  

    For classic USC, just make most of the items not visible when using Iray preview, as in the screen shot I left. 

  • paulawp (marahzen)paulawp (marahzen) Posts: 1,371
    edited August 22

    When it comes to viewing Sun-Sky settings with NVIDIA Iray, Ultrascenery 2 does it differently than classic Ultrascenery and appears to have a troublesome quirk in this regard. For assorted reasons, I hadn't done enough with USC2 yet to have really paid attention to this before.

    In addition to setting the viewport view, you'll need to select your Ultrascenery2 object and then the Ultrascenery2 tab (mine just happens to be here - YMMV). Once on the UltraScenery2 pane, look for the Iray Preview checkbox. If checked, and NVIDIA Iray viewport is set, it should show the current lighting as seen here. Now you can rotate the dome and set the time and place to get your sun right where you want it.

    There is a second place to consider looking. You don't have to make a bunch of layers invisible first, like you do in the original Ultrascenery, because that's already done for you. To change what is seen in preview, you can proceed to here (for the new USC2 biomes; legacy items are shown elsewhere, if you're using a legacy ecology).

    I then went to render this simple test scene and got something completely unlike what I just scoped out in Iray preview:

    It would seem that's because of Camera Culling. If you have Camera Culling set for a camera, the rendered image will be a lot brighter. If you set Camera Culling to None, you'll get an image that you'd expect from the preview:

    TBH, I haven't worked out yet how to get Iray Preview to reflect Camera Culling.

    USC2-IrayPreview1.jpg
    1763 x 1005 - 505K
    USC2-IrayPreview2.jpg
    477 x 370 - 26K
    USC2-Example.jpg
    1300 x 1000 - 1M
    USC2-Example-Dark.jpg
    1300 x 1000 - 1M
    Post edited by paulawp (marahzen) on
  • davesodaveso Posts: 7,008

    NorthOf45 said:

    daveso said:

    NorthOf45 said:

    Try using the Sundial (Render Presets/Iray). Set the Environment/Dome/Sun-Sky/Direction/SS Sun Node to the Sun on the Sundial node. The Sun Chain controls will set the elevation and azimuth (basically height and direction). The arrow will point to the sun, so you can position it where you want. Much easier than using Lat/Long and Time settings. Default Environment and Tone Mapping will basically wash out the sun, but you can adjust them to actually see a disc.

    i went looking for the sundials, and they are not in my installation. I had seen them in the past. How would I get them back? 

    Should be part of the Default Resources for DAZ Studio (13176). It will be in the folder I specified ([yourLibrary]/Render Presets/Iray).

    there is an item called sun dial set, but when its clicked it loads into scene, but it does nothing. Not sure how to use it or something. OH WAIT!  ah yes ... now I see. Thank you 

  • davesodaveso Posts: 7,008

    paulawp (marahzen) said:

    When it comes to viewing Sun-Sky settings with NVIDIA Iray, Ultrascenery 2 does it differently than classic Ultrascenery and appears to have a troublesome quirk in this regard. For assorted reasons, I hadn't done enough with USC2 yet to have really paid attention to this before.

    In addition to setting the viewport view, you'll need to select your Ultrascenery2 object and then the Ultrascenery2 tab (mine just happens to be here - YMMV). Once on the UltraScenery2 pane, look for the Iray Preview checkbox. If checked, and NVIDIA Iray viewport is set, it should show the current lighting as seen here. Now you can rotate the dome and set the time and place to get your sun right where you want it.

     

    There is a second place to consider looking. You don't have to make a bunch of layers invisible first, like you do in the original Ultrascenery, because that's already done for you. To change what is seen in preview, you can proceed to here (for the new USC2 biomes; legacy items are shown elsewhere, if you're using a legacy ecology).

     

    I then went to render this simple test scene and got something completely unlike what I just scoped out in Iray preview:

     

    It would seem that's because of Camera Culling. If you have Camera Culling set for a camera, the rendered image will be a lot brighter. If you set Camera Culling to None, you'll get an image that you'd expect from the preview:

     

    TBH, I haven't worked out yet how to get Iray Preview to reflect Camera Culling.

    thank you very much for this. Lots of work :) Much needed information. Now to go and experiment a bit. 

    VDB clouds. I have a couple sets of them, but just using a backdrop is so much easier. I need to play with the VDB clouds more. I use some sets that make great sky and clouds, mainly thse from Colm Jackson which are for Terradome 3, but the work just fine in any scene. PRO-HDR-SKIES Vol_1 for TerraDome 3 | Daz 3D   PRO-HDR-SKIES Vol_2 for TerraDome 3 | Daz 3D  PRO-HDR-SKIES Vol_3 | Daz 3D 

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