No, nah, and NO

OrangeFalcon

barbult said:

Mattymanx said:

...

Time and Money - These two points go together and probably dont need to be discussed.  The less time a PA has to take to make a sellable product, not a their best prodcut or a really great product but just a sellable product, the more return they can get from their time and effort spent.  The more you can produce, the more you can sell and the more money you can make, in theory!

"In theory!" Until people stop buying from you because the quality disappoints them. 
 

Yup. That was exactly my sentiment and the scenario I explained too. That PA that has a bad product has released new ones since then and still won't fix anything. 
 

For many industries, the concept of needing to stick to a draconian timeframe for a product release has led to so many issues. So many consumers unhappy and losing faith. I know it's quite a common practice, but I'd prefer slight delays in the name of quality over something subpar. And that extends to companies like Marvel Studios, Blizzard, and others. 

At least with Daz, we don't really know the intended release date until it's been released, so while they have their timelines defined between them and the PAs, us consumers would be none the wiser if a product needs to release, say 2 days later, so that it functions properly. Time is indeed money-and fixing that issue can help prevent more in the future for more regular, streamlined releases. 

mikael-aronsson

Hmmmmm

I have 3 Genesis 8 folders now ;)

"Genesis 8<space><space>Female"

"Genesis 8<space>Female"

"Genesis 8<space>Females"

They are getting wild.

 

Ron Knights

I started out, around 1999, manually installing all my Poser and DAZ Studio content. Even back then, there was a problem finding files. (Yes, for example, "Pose, Poses, etc.)

Over time, I decided it was too much work to manually install and/or fix items. 

I thought all this automated stuff (DIM, etc.) was supposed to make things easier. Instead, we see suggestions about how to fix the long-standing problems.

crosswind

OrangeFalcon said:

crosswind said:

Hmm... my posts ~~ Anyway, I agree with Elor. In most of their products, the paths are correct, some are wrong. That won't stop the presets from working other than just making the folders messy.

Actually I used to be a pure Content Libary user when I started using DS, I did really care about the issue of messy folders in my library. However, since I started much relying on Smart Content, most of the time I just let go the messy issue, esp. when I have nearly 30K products in the lib.. fixing these messy issues really takes time, not really worth the effort. I'd rather focus on my work ~~

Yeah I'm with you there. I'm pretty dependent on the Smart Content and not overly concerned about how chaotic the file situation, as the time it'd take to fix it isn't worth it. I occasionally run into issues, but not that many. 
 

For OP-I understand you're frustration. I have an issue with a product that hasn't been updated and it's sitting in DIM, waiting to be installed. I've opened two tickets about it and unfortunately received no response. I would have preferred to have it resolved and use it, but at this point, I might see if I can just get store credit for it. It's not worth my time to find a fix on my own (nor  should I have to) and I've already spent a lot of time trying to fix it, to no avail. 
 

At the end of the day, both Daz and the PA answer for the quality in the biggest way-sales. I won't ever buy from this vendor again and not because there was an issue, it's because it's been ignored for nearly 6 months (I bought it much more recently). Maybe I'll change my mind later but for now, that's my stance.
 

My point is that as annoyed as you can be at the product, remember it happens because the PAs aren't perfect. We all encounter this stuff, and we try to help. But we need it to be in an approachable, conducive way as some PAs themselves also read the forums and you might get lucky with a response on what they can do, too. 

Ah hah ! And maybe I used to have OCD. Now I'm relieved.

Right, no one is perfect but if one knows the mistake he/she ever made, better take necessary actions to make correction and improvement ~~ Most of the time we value attitude more than capability.

crosswind

mikael-aronsson said:

Hmmmmm

I have 3 Genesis 8 folders now ;)

"Genesis 8<space><space>Female"

"Genesis 8<space>Female"

"Genesis 8<space>Females"

They are getting wild.

 

I've ever had Genesis 8 Famale, IIRC ~~ 

Torquinox

Ron Knights said:

I thought all this automated stuff (DIM, etc.) was supposed to make things easier. Instead, we see suggestions about how to fix the long-standing problems.

Any change has unintended consequences. A standard only works if everyone accepts and follows it

OrangeFalcon

crosswind said:

OrangeFalcon said:

crosswind said:

Hmm... my posts ~~ Anyway, I agree with Elor. In most of their products, the paths are correct, some are wrong. That won't stop the presets from working other than just making the folders messy.

Actually I used to be a pure Content Libary user when I started using DS, I did really care about the issue of messy folders in my library. However, since I started much relying on Smart Content, most of the time I just let go the messy issue, esp. when I have nearly 30K products in the lib.. fixing these messy issues really takes time, not really worth the effort. I'd rather focus on my work ~~

Yeah I'm with you there. I'm pretty dependent on the Smart Content and not overly concerned about how chaotic the file situation, as the time it'd take to fix it isn't worth it. I occasionally run into issues, but not that many. 
 

For OP-I understand you're frustration. I have an issue with a product that hasn't been updated and it's sitting in DIM, waiting to be installed. I've opened two tickets about it and unfortunately received no response. I would have preferred to have it resolved and use it, but at this point, I might see if I can just get store credit for it. It's not worth my time to find a fix on my own (nor  should I have to) and I've already spent a lot of time trying to fix it, to no avail. 
 

At the end of the day, both Daz and the PA answer for the quality in the biggest way-sales. I won't ever buy from this vendor again and not because there was an issue, it's because it's been ignored for nearly 6 months (I bought it much more recently). Maybe I'll change my mind later but for now, that's my stance.
 

My point is that as annoyed as you can be at the product, remember it happens because the PAs aren't perfect. We all encounter this stuff, and we try to help. But we need it to be in an approachable, conducive way as some PAs themselves also read the forums and you might get lucky with a response on what they can do, too. 

Ah hah ! And maybe I used to have OCD. Now I'm relieved.

Right, no one is perfect but if one knows the mistake he/she ever made, better take necessary actions to make correction and improvement ~~ Most of the time we value attitude more than capability.

 

I definitely have some OCD, especially apparent when I'm working on scenes and need things to be absolutely perfect. Costs me time but yeah. Things need to be correct as I see it. 

And yup-I don't expect perfection from the PAs and appreciate the ones who chime in here with discussions. I simply make the issues known and see what happens. I also acknowledge both them and Daz and quality control but things slip through the cracks. Just need them properly addressed, that's all. It's in their best interest, long term. But yeah, up to them to do it. Some PAs have my consistent business because of consistent quality. 

Richard Haseltine

ainm.sloinneadh said:

For me, the Daz Store is for content that has utility in Daz Studio. If a product in the store doesn't fully cater to the strengths of Studio and the workflows people use it for, then why shouldn't people point out where it it could do better? I don't feel that something working better for a vendor - not artist, because when we talk about utility products, we're talking about a seller-buyer transaction rather an art acquisition to passively admire - is a fair reason to explain why some products are as they are. We're not patrons and, as much as we wouldn't wish to patronise sellers, we don't wish to be patronised ourselves. We understand our needs, and if a product isn't meeting those needs, then being less transparent about where vendors and buyers can meet doesn't seem conducive to better sales and more all-round happiness. Nobody is attacking an artist's merit, only surfacing what should be valuable information about productionising their work.

Commenting when decisions don't suit you or your workflow is fine. A bug or error is something not working,  something not working for a given user (or group) isn't the same thing.

On the folder debate - I use smart content, but my library is now large enough that I literallly can't find products that I know I've bought. And many products don't appear to be properly indexed in the database to the point that simple text searches don't surface their content. I've tried to keep on top of properly categorising products in my smart content, but I simply can't. Looking at how people use the vanilla content tab, I can see how I could organise my products far more easily than battling with smart content categories. And letting Windows index my library folders should sort out many of my text searches needs. The folder structures shown in this thread are still a mess - and while that structure may be mandated by Daz, it appears to me to be for their own convenience rather than my convenience - but at least it's a quick job to drag some files into a different folder, with the caveat that we still need to be careful when it comes to content referenced by other content. Smart content is just as poorly organised anyway, but it's also slow to navigate, and customising its categories is a truly foul experience.

Richard Haseltine

richardandtracy said:

I don't use smart content, and do tend to remember who the PA of a clothing style is is rather than the product name, so 'Vanity' folders tend to be useful for me. Generally if I want a dress for my character I go to Arryn/Onnel, for leather wear, Rhiannon and for a bit of skimpwear to turn males into tongue tied lumps, Lilflame, then I search those library subdirectories for what I think will suit my character.

As a creator of freebie props & poses.. almost everyone has their own way of sorting their library, so I have absolutely no idea where will be best for any particular user, and it's almost guaranteed what I system I do use will be wrong for more than half of users. So, I stick it in a 'Vanity' folder because

1. It's what I find useful and
2. It's a convenient point for anyone else to look for it & move it if they desire.

What I'd really like is for DAZ (as a central 'authority' in this) to publish location recommendations and then I'd follow them. In the absense of such recommendations, it's a free-for-all. Unfortunately.

Regards,

Richard

In fact they do - http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/dson_spec/format_description/metadata/categories/start online, it is also in the /resources/RootCategories.txt file in the application folder. The full category tree is also visible under Categories in the Content Library (not necessarily in Smart Content since that shows only categories that contain items with the current filtering options)

richardandtracy

I'm not convinced it's exactly the sort of thing we're looking for. It is a useful guide listing the content categories - data that is stored in the DSON file. There is, however, no advice in it to say (for example) whether wearable presets for a multi generational prop should have subdirectories for each wearable generation below the prop or have a wearable directory under each applicable generation located in 'People| Genesis *| Props| [Prop Name]| Wearable'. The file is mostly answering a different question, but as it's the best we have, it's probably worth emulating. So, I suppose I should start creating poses under 'People| Genesis *| Poses| By Function| Standing| Chestnut P|'. Well. It has a cachet of sorts, certainly won't be emulated by many based on current noms for locating poses. Regards, Richard.

DasTri

 

Not if someone is planning to use Smart Content (it's likely require other changes but I currently don't know what they are).

One of the reasons I avoid "Smart Content" in my main packet. I want control over my files. 

Barubary

It's always been weird to me that having a seperate file structure in DAZ Studio, above the files in your Content folder, is supposed to solve the 'chaos' in that Content folder. 

If DAZ is not capable of enforcing some sort of reasonable and standardized file structure in the Content folder, why would they be able to do that a level above in the program itself? We are just moving the problem from the files on your hard disk to some database inside DAZ Studio. The lack of care persists.

OrangeFalcon

Barubary said:

It's always been weird to me that having a seperate file structure in DAZ Studio, above the files in your Content folder, is supposed to solve the 'chaos' in that Content folder. 

If DAZ is not capable of enforcing some sort of reasonable and standardized file structure in the Content folder, why would they be able to do that a level above in the program itself? We are just moving the problem from the files on your hard disk to some database inside DAZ Studio. The lack of care persists.

Yeah I find it quite odd, too.  It might be a case of them considering the value (economic) of allocating developmental and QA resources to address this issue.  QA would have another thing potentially holding back releases, which will most likely agitate some PAs, too.

I'm all for it, and I'd like to think they're at least aware of it and the community's stance on it.  

FrankTheTank

These kinds of threads could be avoided entirely if Daz allowed us to rate and review items we buy, the way we can at the Rendo store. That offers a way for us to constructively critique as well as commend PAs, and I''ve noticed the PAs will actually read those comments at Rendo and often correct and update items based on it if the critique is warranted. It's a good feedback system that prevents the kinds of threads we have here, where a PA may feel like they are being dogpiled on. 

WendyLuvsCatz

well this is different

not even under clothing but outfit

and no README, I had to open DIM and look at installed files to find it

Voidtools Everything couldn't but I was using advanced search under clothing

damn hierarchial material presets only too but given up on that battle

OrangeFalcon

FrankTheTank said:

These kinds of threads could be avoided entirely if Daz allowed us to rate and review items we buy, the way we can at the Rendo store. That offers a way for us to constructively critique as well as commend PAs, and I''ve noticed the PAs will actually read those comments at Rendo and often correct and update items based on it if the critique is warranted. It's a good feedback system that prevents the kinds of threads we have here, where a PA may feel like they are being dogpiled on. 

That's a great idea.  We definitely need it here.  The concept of that being essentially a KPI for the PAs can result in better work overall.  And the PAs who already work hard to product quality products will be highlighted quite well.  We have some really fantastic artists selling on this site and I would love for them to be correctly recognized for their consistent quality.  I love getting feedback on my renders because it improves my craft.

If a product or PA isn't doing the sales they need, it's also a gauge as to why.  Is it 100% accurate?  No, but at least it's something.  And it also alleviates having to go on the forums, looking for feedback on products, which is both time consuming and not always an accurate consensus.

DustRider

Here is is one of many possible examples from my content library ... and this is a DAZ Original!!

I've found it difficult to find things I own using smart content, but since the great Renderosity migration smart content isn't an option anymore as it seems DAZ just put things up for sale and isn't creating smart content for them. I have quite a few items for G9 and G8 (and one or two for G3) from migrated vendors that simply do not show anywhere in smart content.

Add to that the apparent ... uummm ...overwhelmed (??) sales/tech support (I filed a tech support ticket that went unanswered for 5 months, I was finally able to resolve it myself, and told tech support to close the ticket, amazingly, I got a thank you response the next day, so there are live people there, they just chose for some reason not to respond). This all leaves me very hesitant to purchase products, especially from any vendors I haven't purchased from before. Now, I always use the free DAZ deals to check any forum and gallery posts before purchasing. As a long time user here (20 yrs.), it used to be my opinion that purchasing from DAZ was in itself a form of quality assurance. Unfortunately, I don't feel that way anymore.

We always hear (read) about how the forum is only just a small unrepresentative sample of the general DS user. I wonder how many people might experience some of the issues noted here and simply decide this isn't for them after a few purchases, go on to other hobbies or platforms and never voice their concerns? Just a random thought that may not even have a basis in reality.

Timbales

FrankTheTank said:

These kinds of threads could be avoided entirely if Daz allowed us to rate and review items we buy, the way we can at the Rendo store. That offers a way for us to constructively critique as well as commend PAs, and I''ve noticed the PAs will actually read those comments at Rendo and often correct and update items based on it if the critique is warranted. It's a good feedback system that prevents the kinds of threads we have here, where a PA may feel like they are being dogpiled on. 

I'd love to see something like that for verified purchases, especially because of how positive I think we can be about a product and PA when we like something. It's rare for me to not like something I have purchased at this point. If the promo pictures don't look good to me, it's a skip.

richardandtracy

I must admit I have bought a couple of hair products from SWAM and Aprilysh (particularly older G3 or earlier) where the product renders so much better in Iray than shown in the old promo images, and I'd love the chance to praise them up to convince others to give the old stuff a new lease of life. Regards, Richard

Oso3D

One thing I really miss about the forum a few years back was that new product threads would often have a bunch of people posting cool renders of stuff, with the frequent joke 'wow, they should have gotten you to do promos!'

A really positive encouragement of trying out stuff, finding cool uses for content, and so on.

There were not a few products I'd end up buying because someone had done something really interesting I hadn't realized from the product page.

 

ainm.sloinneadh

DustRider said:

We always hear (read) about how the forum is only just a small unrepresentative sample of the general DS user.
 

This does surface a lot, doesn't it? When we're talking about the usability of a piece of software, however, it's false (with caveats, which I won't go into). Market research, for which I can understand the argument for there being different groups with different levels of engagement and purchasing patterns - one of which almost certainly includes heavy forum users - answers different questions entirely. But when we're talking about the features and functionality of a piece of software like Daz Studio, a very small sample size is needed to identify improvement opportunities, and that sample could come entirely from forums users.

Usability testing is a very misunderstood field by those who don't work in it. The ROI can be huge on very small samples, but getting people to trust insights from small samples can be difficult. It's, sadly, a constant battle in my day job and for my colleagues.

OrangeFalcon

Oso3D said:

One thing I really miss about the forum a few years back was that new product threads would often have a bunch of people posting cool renders of stuff, with the frequent joke 'wow, they should have gotten you to do promos!'

A really positive encouragement of trying out stuff, finding cool uses for content, and so on.

There were not a few products I'd end up buying because someone had done something really interesting I hadn't realized from the product page.

 

We seem to keep that practice isolated mostly to the DO bundles now. I made that thread for Sylvia and someone made one for Astaroth. Even those didn't have a lot of renders being posted. Usually one or two people, I hoped there would be more

DustRider

ainm.sloinneadh said:

DustRider said:

We always hear (read) about how the forum is only just a small unrepresentative sample of the general DS user.
 

This does surface a lot, doesn't it? When we're talking about the usability of a piece of software, however, it's false (with caveats, which I won't go into). Market research, for which I can understand the argument for there being different groups with different levels of engagement and purchasing patterns - one of which almost certainly includes heavy forum users - answers different questions entirely. But when we're talking about the features and functionality of a piece of software like Daz Studio, a very small sample size is needed to identify improvement opportunities, and that sample could come entirely from forums users.

Usability testing is a very misunderstood field by those who don't work in it. The ROI can be huge on very small samples, but getting people to trust insights from small samples can be difficult. It's, sadly, a constant battle in my day job and for my colleagues.

Just my opinion here, but I agree that for usability issues, the forum is probably a very good gauge for the general user experience. With the ease of use of AI image generation, it seems to me that making sure that all products from here are error free, and quickly addressing problems that were missed would be a top priority. But that's just me.

tsroemi

Oso3D said:

One thing I really miss about the forum a few years back was that new product threads would often have a bunch of people posting cool renders of stuff, with the frequent joke 'wow, they should have gotten you to do promos!'

A really positive encouragement of trying out stuff, finding cool uses for content, and so on.

There were not a few products I'd end up buying because someone had done something really interesting I hadn't realized from the product page.

 

I find a bit of that in the 'Let's discuss/appreciate new stuff' and the 'Render your buys' thread, which is why I like them so much. I try to contribute myself from time to time because I would love for them to stay alive.

WendyLuvsCatz

tsroemi said:

Oso3D said:

One thing I really miss about the forum a few years back was that new product threads would often have a bunch of people posting cool renders of stuff, with the frequent joke 'wow, they should have gotten you to do promos!'

A really positive encouragement of trying out stuff, finding cool uses for content, and so on.

There were not a few products I'd end up buying because someone had done something really interesting I hadn't realized from the product page.

 

I find a bit of that in the 'Let's discuss/appreciate new stuff' and the 'Render your buys' thread, which is why I like them so much. I try to contribute myself from time to time because I would love for them to stay alive.

I use the forum post option in DAZ-Deals when available (when people have linked products) to read comments on stuff