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RKane_1:
Yeah, I have a question...
Why are you listening to this served up B.S.?
It all boils down to ethics, and the ONE illegal practice; using "anothers", or "part of" of anothers mesh (i.e. Genesis, Valandar's sword, Stonemason's City Ruins, etc., etc., etc.) as your own.
Derivative works?
It's all derivative works.
When it comes to ethics, I believe in ethics, and NO ONE should be using anyone else's mesh for their own mesh.
But, when someone tells me a "TOOL" can't be used because of some perceived advantage (and infringement), yet others that can produce the same are fine, makes me want to throw everyone off of a building.
So, I can't create a mesh by hand (box, curves, nurbs, facet) and use a tool to bring vertices into a desired location, but I can create every necessary vertex by hand and move into coincident location to "dummy" mesh local to 0,0,0, because I did it by "eye".
Even more so, I can draw out a facsimile pattern of Genesis, and with use of "tools" in my cloth simulator program, recreate the entire Genesis mesh, and with "hand" cleanup in my modeler without using any aforementioned "illegal" tools have created a duplicate Genesis, but with only using approved tools, and all by hand.
So, by this logic that is o.k.?
B.S. It would be unethical of me to even attempt to "re-create" Genesis in any manner. But, to tell me if I use a tool that might shave a week off of production time in creating clothing for Genesis is illegal, well, that's just...
@DaremoK3 - I am listening to this because I would like to grow up to be big and strong and be a DAZ PA one day. :)
Does you no good to alienate the group of people who can sue your butt if they don't like what you are doing. It also helps others in case they want to try as well so I made a thread about it for everyone to learn from. *smile*
And no one is saying you can't do what you want for your own private use, just not to sell or redistribute in any way. After all, that is what morph targets are. I just want to modify that mesh, cut part of it out and make clothes out of it. I would pretty blatantly state what I was doing and how I was doing it and wouldn't do it if the person who made or produced the original had issues with it.
I also see no problem in taking someone else's mesh and making it better or different WITH THEIR PERMISSION being the key caveat to that. DAZ wants to protect their profit margin after investing time and money in making a wonderful product. They don't want for that to be at risk which I understand and appreciate.
@ Patience55 - YAAAAAAAAAY! HIDDEN GEM! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! FREE TUTORIAL!
I think where some confusion comes in is that it's not so much that certain tools aren't allowed- people get stuck on that thought a lot, - but that certain processes aren't allowed. Here's a case in point:
Not too long back, a month or two, I had to ask if a process I was using would result in the clothing I created being disqualified from distribution. Basically, it involved building a simple quick suit in Hexagon, using the Hex smoothing to divide it down, then bringing it into Daz Studio. With a bit of scaling, I could then use Daz|Studio's own tools and functions to manipulate the quicksuit mesh, form it very closley to the Genesis figure, and export a decently detailed bodysuit that fit the Genesis amazingly well. On one hand, the mesh was my own, none of the verts or faces were borrowed from Genesis, there was no mesh matching used. On the other hand, with some tweaking and subdivisions, I could make that suit so detailed you could see the form of the eye socket and lips below it- almost as good as a Geoshell with just a small amount of work.
My ideas weren't wrong, my tools were "allowed" (obviously, it's Hexagon and D|S), but it was the feeling that the resulting mesh after the process should be for personal use only- The tools I used and the process I used weren't exactly the way the were intended to be used, and the result from it was just too close to the original Genesis mesh. No problem at all, no distribution when using that process. Since I want to eventually release some freebies down the road, I went back to Hex and remade my base suits the old fashioned way.
To me it was simply a case of, I was using a short cut. It made a lot of the base very easy- but also too easy, and I wouldn't have needed to ask if it was ok to do it that way if I hadn't suspected that it wasn't alright in the first place. So it's not so much the tools, as it is the way you use them.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/4174/
Daz needs to release a list of features, tools, methods for each 3d app that is not allowed. I would hate to do something, spend all my time on it, only to be told I used an "illegal" technique. More and more shortcuts are being created in these apps, easier and more automated workflows. Its kind of pointless upgrading them, if only the most primitive techniques can be used. We need more clarification on this. More and more people are looking into developing content, and this issue needs to be formally addressed.
This debate seems to come up at least once a year, either here or Renderosity. In one of those discussion I gave a fairly lengthy example of why I believe DAZ has taken the position they have. I wish I had had the good sense to keep a copy of it but I didn't. What it boils down to is simply saying "NO, YOU CANNOT DO IT" gives DAZ a better legal standing to go after unscrupulous and unethical (read Rat Bastards) individuals that do violate their copyrights. I am sure there are vendors that do use these tools to some degree when making clothing and wearable props. As long as the end product isn't a quick and easy rip off the base there probably won't be a problem, but as the OP has suggested that is something that needs to handled between the vendor and the base figure owner. I hope this may clear up a few things and I am in no way indorsing the violation of copyright or EULA agreements.
A general rule: If you can't afford to pay a lawyer to defend what you have done in a court of law, then it is "illegal" for all intents and purposes. If what you have done can't easily be determined to be significantly different from the parent mesh, then it is "illegal" for all intents and purposes regardless of creation method.
"for all intents and purposes" means that you will lose in a court of law and be liable for damages.
It really doesn't matter whether or not if what you are doing follows the letter of the law, if you cannot defend yourself, a court will rule against you.
If you are unlucky enough to get put in front of a jury, or a judge with no knowledge of the "art", and your mesh is not easily discernable by *viewing* to be significantly different you are going to lose. What the law says doesn't matter. It's the interpretation of both the language, and the court's interpretation of your intent, that matter -- unless you have the funding to fight through the appeals process.
Kendall
That's pretty much why I started this thread so I could clarify before beginning to work on something. I didn't want to work on it just to be told it was not "kosher" by their standards.
I wish they would have allowed the item made earlier by Ebahr with a stipulation of them getting a bigger cut of the profits and it being a DAZ exclusive or DAZ Original. THAT I could see.
If someone is making a product that helps sell your product as well that makes you a bigger profit... I don't see the harm in giving permission to do it.
I know you can create clothing for which ever figure in Zbrush using the base as a starting point and then drawing around it
Example The Bikini for Genesis was done in Zbrush if I remember correctly
Also a lo of sculpts for Genesis and Gen 4 figures are done in zbrush
But was it done in house or by an independent PA and, if so, with permission?
I understand and respect DAZ when it comes to Genesis and their mesh. It's their show when it comes to Genesis and if someone doesn't like it, they can make their own incredibly versatile mesh and back it with a slew of products.
They built an incredible playground. I just want to know the rules before I play in it. *smile*
Smay Did Nata
There was a video showing him do the bikini for Nata in the old forum
Well, Smay is definitely a PA here. I am banking he probably had permission. All is legal with the right permissions.
I think when it comes to clothing it all pretty much has to be created on top of the Base Mesh
But yeah
This has been talked about at least three times since the forums got back online
just check the forums for the other threads and read the conclusions
Well, it would appear that some permissions must have changed with the new program conditions or whatever because yes the merchants are using methods that were previously understood to be not okay. It might be rather nice if the Company issued some clear directive including for those of us not totally clear on what all these terms mean; what is meant and what is or is not allowed.
Sending you a PM to illustrate that of which I speak.
Not to bring up an ancient thread, but it's relevant, and I'm confused. lol
This portion of the EULA has been driving me bonkers, I've read it over and over:
If I'm reading this right, we're able to use the Genesis mesh to create content for Genesis (ie clothing) by copying and cutting into the mesh itself (first bolded statement)?
Or, is this not allowed because clothing wouldn't technically require Genesis as it can be scaled around any other figures (second bolded statement)?
Is using the actual mesh, or retopology/shrinkwrapping, ok if you RTEncode the file against Genesis to prove ownership for use?
Using the actual mesh is not allowed. You can trace and retoplogize it by making a new mesh. But cutting pieces of the actual Genesis mesh to make content is a no-no..
So retopology is now ok? What about shrink wrapping it?
Last I heard, shrink wrapping was a not allowed. I have no idea why though, its the same as tracing it manually, the topology is different anyways lol.
That's fine then. I've read elsewhere on these forums that bringing clothing into DS and using the TU to fit it to Genesis and then re-exporting the item for more work is ok, which confuses me seeing as it's basically the same thing, just with an extra step of using DS to do it instead of a shrink wrap modifier in the modeling program itself.
I should've bookmarked the thread I saw that in. >.<</p>
Thanks for getting me straightened out. lol
I think if you're a vendor here or you sell the product here then DAZ is a bit more forgiving but if you go out side then you have to stick to the rules.
I'm not a vendor, and I don't plan to be right now. "Sticking to the rules" I'm perfectly fine with. I was trying to get clarification of those rules.
I've read that retopology was a no-no (ie this thread), but since the last post other than mine was last year I wasn't sure if things had changed, and that part of the EULA was confusing the crap out of me. lol
Pretty well it's no retopology and no shrink wrapping, sorry.
? Are you sure about no retopology? By that I am not talking about "hit retopology" button, but actually making the loops yourself using the base as a template for a tight fit.
Ok, wires are getting crossed somewhere. Zev0 just said that retopo was ok on the previous page (last post).
So manual retopo is fine, but auto retopo is a no-go?
Things are starting to get clearer. lol
Yes that is correct...
Me's the mouse that rote it ;-) Got the info from CS.
When one uses the TU [transfer utility], the mesh is in no way 'the same' as Genesis' [or whichever figure is used]. It is still all ones own mesh. And looks like it too ;-)
If Shrink wrap is simply copying the original item's mesh [like Hexagon does under another name], then that's a no-no in general.
Now, why and wherefore it is that we can now copy a very little bit of original mesh for making something is for "GeoGrafting" ... because one has to. This item "must be" for the item which donated the mesh. i.e. a tail for Genesis ... a "fill in the blank" for Genesis.
Now, "once upon a time" we were supposed to clear through the company any and all such GeoGrafted bits and pieces however from how I read the eul I don't think we need to do that anymore [okay if somebody knows different, shout it out, com'on ... I haven't made anything yet to worry about].
The "not really new but possibly overlooked" mention is the part about [in my paraphrase] ... whatever one makes, if Daz3d in its wisdom decides they don't want that being sold/distributed ... we shall take it down sans argument. Main idea is pretty please, do not make items that run in competition with those sold in the store. [makes sense] Especially do not make items which would directly compete with store items such as the figures themselves. We cannot make a "mermaid using Genesis" thus creating a new figure to sell/distribute on our own for example.
PAs sometimes do things which in appearance others cannot ... the main deal being [as far as locum oakum can figure out] is that Daz3d.com is maintaining 'control' of the item. Said items are sold in the store.
nope ... not according to one of the mods I contacted way back when. Can't copy a dot, line, anything to draw out from a clothing item.
Have to make circle [or whatever] from scratch.
Not a biggie really ... just make the first one real good ... and keep a master copy for 'next time'.
So manual retopo is fine, but auto retopo is a no-go?
Things are starting to get clearer. lol
Well it's in the same category it's using the copyright mesh to generate a shape, Are you talking about 3d coat, technical voxels are not topology so don't know about that one.
It would be Blender/Hexagon.
I guess this would be an easier question: what's the legal way of modeling around Genesis to prevent making something so astronomically out of proportion that even TU tells me to F off? lol Could I make a series of extrusions around Genesis (from a cube, not extrude Genesis itself) to get the basic shape and then push, pull, tug, etc around Genesis to match the shape?
Thats how they normally make content yes.
Alright, I'll stick to that method then. I'm not looking to get Daz coming after me screaming 'off with her head'. lol Rather be safe than sorry.