Let's TALK ABOUT Superheroes/superheroines

K T Ong

Barubary said:

Yeah, I figured that what I said might also apply to policemen, but there is a difference: policemen to not deal with people they deem a threat to society. They - ideally ^^ - deal with people who break laws which were made by society and they are employed by society to fulfill that task. Superheroes on the other hand, afaik, tend to be vigilantes.

I'd say it's precisely part of the concept of the superhero/ine that s/he exercises his/her own independent judgement, rather than just dealing with what society tells him/her is unacceptable behavior in society -- though (ideally) for the most part his/her judgements do happen to coincide with what his/her society considers unacceptable behavior. Sometimes (if not often), unfortunately, those in power in a society can become corrupted and twist all the rules to their own ends, and in situations like this the superhero/ine becomes IMO a genuine source of inspiration by not following the now corrupted rules of society anymore but going by his/her own judgement.

To some degree, I would assume, superheroes deal with a basic problem society and law making and enforcing do have. You can't prevent crime. You can't punish every crime. Not every punishment is just. They're broadsword approaches to regulating the lives of millions of individual cases. Wouldn't it be great if there was a wise Superman not only able but willing and smart enough to supply justice where policemen and judges and politicians can only fail? That's not all there is to the superhero concept, but I think it's a part of it. In that way they are fundamentally incompatible with reality. Played straight, superheroes are like the justice version of the land of milk and honey.

That's what myth is about, right? An ideal expressed through some imaginative medium, say a comic book or cartoon show.

I'm sure there must be some issues of Superman (or some other hero) around in which he exercised great wisdom in passing judgement. Certainly more than a few heroes/heroines abide by a 'code against taking life'.

Sure, but like Superman, Lex Luthor is a fictional character. I guess superhero stories would be far less entertaining if the villains were not, well, evil. It's a fantasy after all. I guess at this point in time mist important villains have a solid back stories and even relatable motivations - and that's great - but I agree that in the end, there's probably a lot of 'black and white'. Everything else might actually end up challenging the whole superhero concept. If Superman was to beat up a decent Lex Luthor with a relatable goal, Superman would be the villain. Or it would reach a conclusion that could no longer be solved by just punching someone. I'm sure there are superhero comics like this and I think this would be a sign of a comics maturity, but it would definitely challenge superhero cliche, wouldn't it?

Truth be told, I myself actually find the 'black-hat-versus-white-hat' formula simplistic and tiresome as well. (That's why I've never had much patience with Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings.) I'm sure many villains could have been forced to become what they were by circumstances beyond their control. And it's also of interest to note that in all of the East Asian religious traditions no human being could ever be truly evil -- just temporarily deluded.

I would certainly consider it a good thing in this respect if there were to be more superhero/ine fare showing a greater awareness of the complexities of human motivation, but at the same time I think it would be a challenge to make the story both entertaining and showing such awareness.

I myself have been entertaining this idea of a new superhero who doesn't just catch 'crooks' and hand them in to the police. In #1 of his comic series he catches a street thug who's attempting to rob a lady, but talks to him and finds (with the aid of a spell to ensure he's telling the truth) that he's really just a normal guy caught in extremely difficult personal situations, so our hero magically creates a diamond and gives it to him to sell for money, thereby relieving him of his woes. Would this story work? Whaddya think? (Hey, I might seriously make this into an e-comic. Below is how I intend my hero to look like.)

Some supervillains have actually been portrayed as possessing a tiny spark of goodness in them as well, which occasionally shines out in what they do. Skeletor from the He-Man cartoon series, for example. ;-) (You know He-Man?)

K T Ong

Jay_NOLA said:

I the old Iron Man animated series they colored him green. This was deliberate as Marvel didn't want the character to appear to be of Asian heritage and the same animators were told to do the same thing for other characters, make them not fit any identifiable racial profile. for other characters in various series the studio worked on.

The animators even did the green skin for Ming the Merciless in the Defenders of the Earth animated series. Marvel did the animation even though none of the characters are Marvel ones. The green skin and changes to characters in oother projects ries the animators reason is mentioned in the commentary on on of the DVDs for that series.

I'm Chinese myself (by descent, not by nationality) and I wouldn't be particularly offended if they portrayed the Mandarin and Ming the Merciless with normal skin color. :) After all, I'm sure there are far more Caucasian baddies than Asian ones in the wacky world of superheroes. If the good guys were always whites while the baddies were always of some other race, then I'd be offended.

And by the way, Ming the Merciless was portrayed with normal skin color in the old Flash Gordon cartoon series created by Filmation. (He was a bit dark IMO, though.)

K T Ong

It's interesting to note who the very first JEWISH superhero was. It was RAGMAN, a hero created by Joe Kubert and Robert Kanigher in the early 1970's for DC, who derived his powers from a suit all made of... rags.

Guess he must be the poorest of all heroes. Surely filthy-rich Batman could spare him a few greenbacks? :smirk:

Knight22179

K T Ong said:

It's interesting to know that in the DC universe Earth's very first Green Lantern was a Chinese. His story was told in the 3-part miniseries Green Lantern Dragon Lord. The story betrays a serious lack of knowledge of Chinese history and culture, though! :-)

This was retconned out of Continuity a long time ago.

K T Ong

Dunno. It still seems an official part of the Green Lantern mythos.

Good to see you posting again by the way. Sandy was making me a bit concerned. (Then again, what's a little hurricane to a superheroine? ;-) )

And hey, there IS a female Green Lantern! Her name's LAIRA!

http://greenlantern.wikia.com/wiki/Laira

Knight22179

Nope, not in continuity as Hal has been continually referred to as the first human to wear the ring both by the writers and inside the comic. :)

Laira has purple skin and isn't human, plus she was turned into a Red Lantern and then died in Hal's arms. :)

And I don't live anywhere near the east coast, so no worries there. :)

riftwitch

Knight22179 said:

Nope, not in continuity as Hal has been continually referred to as the first human to wear the ring both by the writers and inside the comic. :)

Laira has purple skin and isn't human, plus she was turned into a Red Lantern and then died in Hal's arms. :)

And I don't live anywhere near the east coast, so no worries there. :)

I thought that, post-Crisis, Alan Scott preceded Hal by several decades. Then again, with the New 52 stuff, the main DC Earth may not have ever had any Golden Age characters; I haven't been following any titles regularly. I've gotten more frugal as I've gotten older, and there aren't any comic shops near me anymore.

Knight22179

riftwitch said:

Knight22179 said:

Nope, not in continuity as Hal has been continually referred to as the first human to wear the ring both by the writers and inside the comic. :)

Laira has purple skin and isn't human, plus she was turned into a Red Lantern and then died in Hal's arms. :)

And I don't live anywhere near the east coast, so no worries there. :)

I thought that, post-Crisis, Alan Scott preceded Hal by several decades. Then again, with the New 52 stuff, the main DC Earth may not have ever had any Golden Age characters; I haven't been following any titles regularly. I've gotten more frugal as I've gotten older, and there aren't any comic shops near me anymore.

WHat you speak of is true. ;)

I should have elaberated better. Hal has been referred to as the first human ever to become a Green Lantern of the Green Lantern Corps. Alan may have been the first GL, but he's never been an official member of the GLC.

So, that Chinese guy being Earth's first GL? Written out of continuity even before the new 52 reboot Hal was always referred to as the first human GL to be recruited into the GLC, not Mr. Chinese guy. That story was quickly forgotten shortly after it saw print.

K T Ong

Maybe there was a malfunction in the data storage systems of the Green Lantern Corps and the name of Mr Chinese guy accidentally got deleted from their records. Alternatively, he could be the first Green Lantern on some alternative Earth. :lol:

Knight22179 said:

Laira has purple skin and isn't human, plus she was turned into a Red Lantern and then died in Hal's arms. :)

You want a GL who's not only female but human as well? Picky, aren't you? :)

I've gotten more frugal as I've gotten older, and there aren't any comic shops near me anymore.

Try eBay!

Knight22179

K T Ong said:

Maybe there was a malfunction in the data storage systems of the Green Lantern Corps and the name of Mr Chinese guy accidentally got deleted from their records. Alternatively, he could be the first Green Lantern on some alternative Earth. :lol:

Knight22179 said:

Laira has purple skin and isn't human, plus she was turned into a Red Lantern and then died in Hal's arms. :)

You want a GL who's not only female but human as well? Picky, aren't you? :)

Alan Scott, Hal Jordan, John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner and now Simon Baz. All men. Six in all. You bet I'm picky. I'm sick and tired of men always making the cut. The writers made GL's from Earth an all men's club and that doesn't sit well with me at all.

Ron Marz introduced Kyle Rayner to us. He had the PERFECT opportunity to break the mold and give us a much deserved human woman GL. He didn't. Then Geoff Johns introduces Simon Baz, yet ANOTHER man. Enough is enough!

There have been two human women from Earth who did wear the ring but that only lasted one issue (maybe 2), but that's it and nothing permanent. We have half a dozen GL's from Earth flying around who are men and that's WAY too many. We need some human women!

So, yeah. You bet I'm picky. DC is prejudiced against the woman community because they don't want human women wearing the ring on a permanent basis but they are OK if an alien woman wears one.

And that's not right at all.

K T Ong

I think Marvel's worse. (I'm not defending DC.) DC at least has one major 'standalone' female hero who almost takes center stage in its pantheon, right next to Superman and Batman. Marvel seems to have none AFAIK. Yes, they have some heroines, but all of them seem to be of peripheral status, or only form part of some team such as the X-Men rather than being standalone heroines in their own right.

It's admittedly sad that such elements of sexism are found in the world of superhero comics. Hopefully that will change. (One first step to take could be to depict the guys in graphically more provocative ways, of course -- as has always been done with the gals. I'd like it. ;-) )

Knight22179

riftwitch said:

Knight22179 said:

Nope, not in continuity as Hal has been continually referred to as the first human to wear the ring both by the writers and inside the comic. :)

Laira has purple skin and isn't human, plus she was turned into a Red Lantern and then died in Hal's arms. :)

And I don't live anywhere near the east coast, so no worries there. :)

I thought that, post-Crisis, Alan Scott preceded Hal by several decades. Then again, with the New 52 stuff, the main DC Earth may not have ever had any Golden Age characters; I haven't been following any titles regularly. I've gotten more frugal as I've gotten older, and there aren't any comic shops near me anymore.

Google Mile High Comics. You can buy comics from them from all Comic Publishers and they will mail them to you.

riftwitch

K T Ong said:

I think Marvel's worse. (I'm not defending DC.) DC at least has one major 'standalone' female hero who almost takes center stage in its pantheon, right next to Superman and Batman. Marvel seems to have none AFAIK. Yes, they have some heroines, but all of them seem to be of peripheral status, or only form part of some team such as the X-Men rather than being standalone heroines in their own right.

It's admittedly sad that such elements of sexism are found in the world of superhero comics. Hopefully that will change. (One first step to take could be to depict the guys in graphically more provocative ways, of course -- as has always been done with the gals. I'd like it. ;-) )

Is there much provacative stuff available for the guys that would work for superhero renders. I'm not averse to doing some renders, but I'm still learning how to make my own clothes.

riftwitch

Knight22179 said:

riftwitch said:

Knight22179 said:

Nope, not in continuity as Hal has been continually referred to as the first human to wear the ring both by the writers and inside the comic. :)

Laira has purple skin and isn't human, plus she was turned into a Red Lantern and then died in Hal's arms. :)

And I don't live anywhere near the east coast, so no worries there. :)

I thought that, post-Crisis, Alan Scott preceded Hal by several decades. Then again, with the New 52 stuff, the main DC Earth may not have ever had any Golden Age characters; I haven't been following any titles regularly. I've gotten more frugal as I've gotten older, and there aren't any comic shops near me anymore.

Google Mile High Comics. You can buy comics from them from all Comic Publishers and they will mail them to you.

Thanks, I forgot about them. There are comic shops within driving distance, but they're a little farther away than I usually care to drive unless I have other business in those areas. It's not like a few years back when there was a shop just a few blocks away (and gasoline was cheaper). The big issue is that when I look through comics (our local grocery stores carry a few, but I have the same problem in comic shops), I rarely see anything that I'm willing to part with my money for. I'd rather put the time into my own characters (I've been creating superheroes since around second grade), and the money into my music (and now stuff I can use in Studio).

riftwitch

I'm sure a lot of the people posting in this thread have created superheroes (& villains) of their own. Have you found yourself making changes to any of your characters since you started playing with programs like Studio & Poser? I've found that in some cases, some characters just simply didn't work when trying them in 3d; in other cases, working on images has led me down different paths than I would have gone if I was just describing them to an artist (I can't draw a straight line with a ruler, so Studio has been a real blessing for me.)

Eustace Scrubb

riftwitch said:

I'm sure a lot of the people posting in this thread have created superheroes (& villains) of their own. Have you found yourself making changes to any of your characters since you started playing with programs like Studio & Poser? I've found that in some cases, some characters just simply didn't work when trying them in 3d; in other cases, working on images has led me down different paths than I would have gone if I was just describing them to an artist (I can't draw a straight line with a ruler, so Studio has been a real blessing for me.)

Actually, I don't have any images of them yet, but a duo of my own hero team were actually inspired by DryJack's "Plague Doctor" set on ShareCG.

Sylvan

K T Ong said:

Considering that there's a long thread here on rendering superheroes, I thought I might start another one in which we just talk about them for the fun of it. Let's just discuss the following:

1. Which (or what sort of) superheroes/superheroines appeal the most to you, and why?

2. Which (or what sort of) superheroes/superheroines turn you off, and why?

3. What sort of things do you look for in a superhero/ine? Is appearance everything to you, or how 'badass' s/he is (as in how good s/he is against his/her foes), or the kind of person s/he is (morally impeccable like Superman, or bad-tempered like the Hulk, or arrogant like Namor etc), or the concept of the superhero/ine (whether s/he's a mutant, magic-based, uses all sorts of futuristic gadgets, is a god/dess etc), or a bit of all these?

4. If YOU could have FOUR superpowers, what would they be?

5. Have you ever dreamt of superheroes/superheroines in your sleep?

Please don't feel that you have to answer all the questions above (and feel free to bring in your own discussion topics as long as they're about those guys and gals in comic books running/swimming/flying around in spandex :) ). I have my own answers, but for now how about sharing yours first?

1) I have a thing for bad guys, at this moment I say LOKI *grin*
2) Very muscular types and super hero women that fight in bikini suites...
3) I like 'm smart, smart is def. the way to go! And magic as well!
4) MAGIC (oooh, the things I could do with that)
5) Yeah, myself being one XD

This was fun!

riftwitch

Eustace Scrubb said:

riftwitch said:

I'm sure a lot of the people posting in this thread have created superheroes (& villains) of their own. Have you found yourself making changes to any of your characters since you started playing with programs like Studio & Poser? I've found that in some cases, some characters just simply didn't work when trying them in 3d; in other cases, working on images has led me down different paths than I would have gone if I was just describing them to an artist (I can't draw a straight line with a ruler, so Studio has been a real blessing for me.)

Actually, I don't have any images of them yet, but a duo of my own hero team were actually inspired by DryJack's "Plague Doctor" set on ShareCG.

Playing around with Studio has caused me to re-think a few things in my own creatioins. For example, I have a character who had six arms. After playing around with Four Arms for Genesis, and doing what I could to fake the third pair of arms, I realized that I had to stretch the torso too much to get the arms spaced properly, and it just didn't look right. It probably could have worked on a really thin character, but with the musculature this character has, I settled for four arms, and I think it works much better.

Another change I made was in how toned most of the characters look. None of the others have the kind of muscles the guy in my first example has, but being on a team that goes through regular (and rather rigorous) training, I have made them more toned (the bodybuilder details and fitness details morphs have been a big help here).

At the moment, I've only been able to do uniforms for a handful of them, using items I've bought; the rest will have to be done with custom designed items, as I learn Hexagon better. For now, I've finished a render of the women of the team in bathing suits, and I've started a similar render of the men. At least this way, I'm getting the faces, skin colors, builds, and relative heights of the characters looking right before I cover them in spandex (or armor, or whatever a particular character should be wearing).

Knight22179

riftwitch said:

I'm sure a lot of the people posting in this thread have created superheroes (& villains) of their own. Have you found yourself making changes to any of your characters since you started playing with programs like Studio & Poser? I've found that in some cases, some characters just simply didn't work when trying them in 3d; in other cases, working on images has led me down different paths than I would have gone if I was just describing them to an artist (I can't draw a straight line with a ruler, so Studio has been a real blessing for me.)

Studio has been a blessing to me too. And yeah, I've created my own heroes and villians. And yes, I have found myself making many changes to my own characters. But it's all good. :)

K T Ong

Estroyer said:

1) I have a thing for bad guys, at this moment I say LOKI *grin*

Bad guys (and gals) can indeed be appealing at times. My (current) favorite is Catwoman. ;-)

2) Very muscular types and super hero women that fight in bikini suites...

Ditto. Especially when you have the two together, as in muscular women fighting in bikinis. I can't stand that Street Fighter bitch named Cammy, for example. Most nauseating character ever IMO. >:(

4) MAGIC (oooh, the things I could do with that)

Ummmm, I don't think I'd allow 'blanket' powers that cover everything!

K T Ong

riftwitch said:

Is there much provacative stuff available for the guys that would work for superhero renders. I'm not averse to doing some renders, but I'm still learning how to make my own clothes.

There are some extremely provocative garments for Genesis which can be found at Renderosity, such as this and this.

Pity they never dressed Aquaman up like that. Just the thought of it makes me drool... %-P

I'm sure a lot of the people posting in this thread have created superheroes (& villains) of their own. Have you found yourself making changes to any of your characters since you started playing with programs like Studio & Poser?

I only discovered Studio relatively recently. Haven't really tried using it to render any of the heroes/heroines I previously created on paper (not that I created that many), as I found myself too constrained by the limitations imposed by Studio. To render my Diamond Bearer in Studio for example -- without making significant changes to him, that is, which I really don't think I'd want to -- would require several things not currently available at the DAZ marketplace (unless I make them myself using Hexagon or some other tool, which I don't know how -- yet). And that fire aura -- don't think there's any item that would enable me to render that. (Or is there?)

Studio is wonderful, but sometimes when it comes to certain things I prefer to settle for old-fashioned '2D' art. Hey, it can still have a charm of its own which 3D art cannot always reproduce!

And hey, how about showing some of the heroes/heroines you created? (Doesn't matter to me whether they're rendered or hand-drawn.)

Knight22179

Here's some of my original Characters. :)

These are their old looks. I've updated each one to Genesis and updating their looks. But I haven't done any new render with them yet.

K T Ong

That sentinel looks real fascinating (and a bit scary). He seems to glow from within. Will have to figure how to produce that effect.

That gal in the bottom pic must be trying to hide from Mr Oonga Oonga because she finds his body odor simply too unbearable.

Knight22179

Thanks. ;) The reason for the glow is he's a being of pure energy. And the fact that he's a bit scary to you means I've succeeded since he WAS a Super-Villian before he turned into a hero.

*LOL* Thanks, that could be the reason she is trying to hide from him. ;)

riftwitch

K T Ong said:

Estroyer said:

1) I have a thing for bad guys, at this moment I say LOKI *grin*

Bad guys (and gals) can indeed be appealing at times. My (current) favorite is Catwoman. ;-)

2) Very muscular types and super hero women that fight in bikini suites...

Ditto. Especially when you have the two together, as in muscular women fighting in bikinis. I can't stand that Street Fighter bitch named Cammy, for example. Most nauseating character ever IMO. >:(

4) MAGIC (oooh, the things I could do with that)

Ummmm, I don't think I'd allow 'blanket' powers that cover everything!

Two super-powered women could get into a fight on the beach... ;-) But seriously, the character I have who appears to be the most scantlilly clad has illusion-based powers, and while she is a show-off, she isn't stupid. She's a lot better protected than she appears.

Yeah, characters who can do anything with just a thought are rather boring. I've been watching Once Upon A Time, and even as powerful as Mr. Gold/Rumplestiltskin is, he has limits. As he likes to tell the other characters, 'magic comes with a price'.

riftwitch

K T Ong said:

riftwitch said:

Is there much provacative stuff available for the guys that would work for superhero renders. I'm not averse to doing some renders, but I'm still learning how to make my own clothes.

There are some extremely provocative garments for Genesis which can be found at Renderosity, such as this and this.

Pity they never dressed Aquaman up like that. Just the thought of it makes me drool... %-P

I'm sure a lot of the people posting in this thread have created superheroes (& villains) of their own. Have you found yourself making changes to any of your characters since you started playing with programs like Studio & Poser?

I only discovered Studio relatively recently. Haven't really tried using it to render any of the heroes/heroines I previously created on paper (not that I created that many), as I found myself too constrained by the limitations imposed by Studio. To render my Diamond Bearer in Studio for example -- without making significant changes to him, that is, which I really don't think I'd want to -- would require several things not currently available at the DAZ marketplace (unless I make them myself using Hexagon or some other tool, which I don't know how -- yet). And that fire aura -- don't think there's any item that would enable me to render that. (Or is there?)

Studio is wonderful, but sometimes when it comes to certain things I prefer to settle for old-fashioned '2D' art. Hey, it can still have a charm of its own which 3D art cannot always reproduce!

And hey, how about showing some of the heroes/heroines you created? (Doesn't matter to me whether they're rendered or hand-drawn.)

Those outfits could possibly be of some use for me someday. I did pick up this one (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/dz-singletx-for-genesis/93281) for one of my male characters. With a shader from the supersuit, it works really well. My original concept for the character had the legs covered, but I'm fine with this. If we aren't going to give the ladies more coverage, then let's just give the guys less.

If I could draw, I would have 'settled' for 2D art years ago. I'm having a ball right now, when I need a change of pace from music.

I'll post some renders when I have something I think is good enough to share. Hopefully soon...

K T Ong

riftwitch said:

Two super-powered women could get into a fight on the beach... ;-) But seriously, the character I have who appears to be the most scantlilly clad has illusion-based powers, and while she is a show-off, she isn't stupid. She's a lot better protected than she appears.

As long as she's not the type who has a penchant for showing off her meat and whose powers frequently involve showing it off. Yeech.

Yeah, characters who can do anything with just a thought are rather boring. I've been watching Once Upon A Time, and even as powerful as Mr. Gold/Rumplestiltskin is, he has limits. As he likes to tell the other characters, 'magic comes with a price'.

Magic can be fun, but I just felt that mentioning 'magic' as a superpower without specifying more exactly what this magic can do seems a bit like cheating. Not only should magic come with a price, it should come with limitations, too. The Filmation superheroine Isis (love her) could do anything with magic -- short of resurrecting the dead.

If I could draw, I would have 'settled' for 2D art years ago. I'm having a ball right now, when I need a change of pace from music.

I'll post some renders when I have something I think is good enough to share. Hopefully soon...

Hey, please don't misunderstand me as saying you should leave 3D art behind and try 2D. I was just stating my own preferences. I still love 3D art, I just felt that 2D art still has lots of merit to it.

And I shall look forward to your renderings of scantily-clad male heroes -- the more scantily clad the better. %-P

Anyway, here are two renderings of a hero I imagined. Rendered in pencil, that is. ;-) He's just a sorcerer's apprentice/adopted son in his very early twenties who can cast a few basic spells. He gets super-strength by drinking a spinach potion!

K T Ong

Seems no one around here likes Capt Underpants...

(Oh, my 200th post exactly...)

riftwitch

K T Ong said:

Seems no one around here likes Capt Underpants...

(Oh, my 200th post exactly...)

One of my wife's patients had a Captain Underpants book she had read to him a while back. It was something about toilets.

K T Ong

I believe it's THIS volume in the Capt Underpants series (see below). :lol: It's just hilarious how superheroes can be made the stuff of such vulgar and irreverent humor. Oughta be a great way to remind you that they're after all the creations of our imagination!

It moves me to tears, by the way, to note that people are still interested in this thread after this long while... ;-)