Reference manual??
jergenoman_b33d4209f8
Posts: 41
Is there any new plans for a D|S reference manual?
I have used Poser for almost 15 years despite the fact that it drives me insane. I have closely followed the development of D|S from start hoping that some day it will be the software that will save my mental health from devastation. The main obstacle for me to switch to D|S has been the fact that i never found a reference manual.
I am an experienced hobbyist and i know how to stretch Poser to produce very good result. D|S however works differently in many ways and i am in desperate need for a reference manual to help me translate my knowledge. Posing etc is easy, but advanced shaders, light, camera and render settings? Where is the documentation? How am i supposed to know what exactly "photon count" or "do final gather" does only to mention two? There are forums and tutorials. Tutorials mostly covers very simple subjects, and I can't spend hours searching through the forums for every single question.
I have paid for D|S twice (version 3 and 4). If i pay for a software i am supposed to be provided with instructions that allows me to use it in a way that lives up to the expectations right?
Sorry if i sound snotty but i have waited for years now for this manual... :o(
Jorgen
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Comments
The bad news: There is no reference manual for Daz Studio and probably never will be.
The good news: There are countless resources to find out everything you need to know. For shaders you can either learn RSL (Renderman Shader Language) which translates wonderfully in 3Delight, or work with using the Shader Mixer which uses a brick system similar to Poser.
The same shader brick system also works for cameras if you need a shader cam amongst other things. I found the transition from Poser pretty smooth, but that might be because I'm quite used to 3D in general so it was just a case of connecting the dots. That said, there are countless people who can ask queries on more advanced topics, and most of the easy ones are covered in the FAQs.
The lack of a reference manual for Daz is something I cannot get around. Sorry... I've tried. That's how I learn. I have never, ever, ever seen one piece of software in my entire life that did not have standard documentation. It makes absolutely no sense at all. WHY would a company fail to have the most basic thing possible?
Again, sorry... really, I am. I would switch to Daz in a second if SOME KIND of actual, standard documentation just existed. If somebody just KNEW why there isn't one and never will be... if we could find out the reason....I think I could come to some kind of closure about it.
Nothing can excuse about the luck of DAZ STUDIO official Document.
DAZ have neglected their duty after DAZ release genesis .
It is simply shame of DAZ.
Well, at least someone else is saying it... ;) I don't know if that's the exact situation or not, obviously. But to put this in context : I have serious ADHD issues. I have a lot of workarounds , but this is one of the spots where I can't be very flexible . I really need to have some kind of real documentation as a foundation to learn from .
We did have a manual at one time, but that was basically for DS1.0, it very quickly became out of date the closer we got to DS 2.0. Then there was the DAZ book, which was basically a reference manual for DS2.3, it was pretty much out of date after it was printed as we moved to DS3 shortly after, not sure but I think it might have been updated for DS3 as it no longer comes with a disk full of content.
DS4 has been like evolution on steroids, so if they had done a manual for DS4.0 it would have been out of date within a couple of builds, which is why they made the document center (AKA Wiki), but sadly nobody seems to be bothering their ass about finishing it let alone keeping it up to date.
Every other 3d software has a manual and professional training by the boatload. (Vue, 3dsMax, etc.). With my educational discount they cost me less than DS4 did back when I paid for it.
Does anyone else remember when they proudly announced 2 years ago that they had hired someone to do documentation? I think she lasted 1 month. No proud announcement that they had given up all hope of creating documentation, just a shift to free software so we can't complain about the lack of documentation.
Jörgen. they went the online route. It's not done, and it will probably never be complete as Studio is a moving target, always changing. They might be convinced, like I am, that most of their users don't use manuals (and I'm convinced many aren't smart enough or able to figure out stuff even if you showed them 3 different ways. I have no patience for many users. /rant), but more likely, they have been busy with all the fixing of Genesis for Poser, two office moves, the new forums and store, and doing it all in a krappy economy. There is a ton of info at these links:
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/userguide/start
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/start
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/videos/start
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF26E7AB601772F0A
Also, another tip I often give to even non-noobs... use Google! e.g., search term site:daz3d.com
and for older stuff - search term site:forumarchive.daz3d.com
Note: the forumarchive site is on an older server and takes a while to load.
To see images that no longer display in posts because the URL changed, just copy and paste the link starting postimage with http://forumarchive.daz3d.com/ in front
You already know from other posts you've made that 3delight.com is the place to search for much more tech info about rendering than you'll probably ever find here. I did a search for photon count final gather site:3delight.com and got this from Google with more suggested text matches from Google in the jump to popup box after going to this page... most of it is over my head:
http://www.3delight.com/en/uploads/docs/3delight/3delight_35.html
Another note: 3Delight is really used for film work where graininess, and other things are desired. So don't expect laser sharp renders without cranking things like photon count up and waiting a while. There are many biases made for motion picture work and to save rendering time. 3Delight is a professional, industrial strength render engine, not like Firefly which only recently saw some good improvements.
Often for the non-stupid it is much quicker to look it up in the manual ( I do all the time with vue or even iclone) than to watch a whole video that purports to be about render settings only to have the guy say after 10 minutes that he really doesn't understand 3/4s of the settings especially the ones I was looking for.
This is tolerable for free software, but if you want me to pay 1000 dollars for it you need to provide Adobe or Autodesk level documentation. As a teacher, I receive a free 3ds max license with tons of documentation. Vue 11 infinite cost me 200 and has COMPLETE documentation.
Why do I stay with DS? Because I have invested years, lurking in the forums, trying to understand the many undocumented features and optimal workflows. Many of the smart, kind, unpaid users have helped me out. You could say DAZ has been profiting from the diligence of these excellent users, since this has kept my flow of spending going. - Last DIM count 6477 items.
DS3 had a manual too.
Talking about "how to learn by yourserlf" are perfectly different topic, I think.
One talk about company Duty, and request DAZ to accomplish the Duty, not request user to teach the way in this topic,
though I often need to ask here and thank user who taught me.
One talk about the way how User learn by themself. then think selfishy "Why you do not serch by your self more?"
Yes Yes I know,, if you have full time to study ,, you can do more and more.you can read every code of ds4 by your self.
I know, we can serch editor for JSON , then can open dson scene files.it is really useful to understand DSON.
or learn about QTscript etc,, to tweak ds scirpt.or learn about shader langage ,,,and google serch
then grab how it work ,, how to use, or find bug or problem. or you may make apricaton. by Google serch only.
But There is no refference with the request of offcial clear documents.
DAZ is idle, lazy,and rely on user who love DAZ.
but these attitude can not get Confidence from customer of DAZ product..
DS 3 manual being still available here: http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/3/start
Paris, what software here costs $1,000 or were you talking in general? Studio Pro is still free for the time being. And it never cost much when they were charging for it after all the sales and discounts. I would expect expensive software like Poser, Vue or iClone to have documentation (I don't like educational rates - it's not fair for the rest of us who have to teach ourselves and pay full price - but consider yourself lucky to have Vue for $200 -- for me to upgrade from Vue 7 is super expensive).
It is frustrating to watch some user tute videos, but the ones DAZ has made and the older ones Carnite (Caroline) did are pretty good and explain things better for me than most manuals. The only manual I ever fully understood was for an audio workstation at my job years ago, but it was written by a professional writer and experienced user.
http://www.youtube.com/user/carnite
Manuals written by programmers are a crap shoot. But DAZ got burned a few times by tech writers they had hired to write a manual and they didn't deliver. So they went with a Wiki instead that was progressing rapidly for a time until the economy hit them hard and the Genesis/website/forums/store issues started taking up all their remaining employees' time. I would never characterize them as idle or lazy - more like overworked. If this economy ever turns around, maybe they'll be able to hire some more people to work on what needs to be done.
Yes, Daz is never going to pay anyone to write a manual when they've effectively got an unpaid workforce happy to answer any queries. There'll never be a manual unless some enterprising PA writes one.
The documentation should be required part of the project plan for any changes to the software... written by power users & developers with technical writing skills.... it can be used as a base to write complete test cases for unit and function testing.... and later revised as user documentation when release updates are delivered. You can embed video tutorial links etc. but all functionality should be described in writing for the user. Any knowledge not documented is just a risk for the company if someone gets hit by a bus or leaves. It should be done as part of the project because after the fact the resources are moving on to the next project.
AND'
More info after I've read the Long-Lost and Very Outdated Manual of Song and Legend. :)
DAZ Studio 3 was a Full release version and DS3A was a pay product, and the one printable Manual for it was provided. DAZ Studio 4+ is still a free item with constant updates to both the functions and interface. The on-line provided documentation is all that is offered at this time so if a procedure changes the information can be changed as well. Once a full final release with no further updates is released to the public I feel sure the information in the form of a down loadable manual will follow. Why ask for Official documentation that might change with the next update release of the program? The provided information would no longer work and just cause more confusion for users. Until a full final release with no more planned updates to correct issues reported to Bug Tracker is done I would not expect a Official Manual myself.
For me the on-line information is a good source to learn the basic's and if I need deeper information I ask in the forums. More often than not I get the help I need. Thanks to the people who have explored most of what the program can do, on their own, the help is here to be had. I do look forward to a full manual but not until DAZ 3D is finished with DAZ Studio 4+.
I wish to point out that is is MY VIEW only. I did live through the DAZ Studio 2 and DAZ Studio 3 days and that is what this post is based on.
Free or not, it is Daz's responsibility as a going business concern to provide professionally adequate documentation for their software products.
I've never worked with any software (some of it almost free <$50) that didn't minimally have complete documentation of its user interface and features. </p>
If Daz only wants to "sell" to hobbyists and not professionals then they are on the right path. But remember Daz, pros are highly motivated and have deeper pocketbooks on average than hobbyists. Ignore a pro a few times and they will buy what they need elsewhere.
I for one have a copy of pp2012 upgraded from pp2010 that is just itching to be used and don't mind tossing out hundreds of dollars of Genesis products to get what I feel is the minimum a company should deliver.
I would pay for an updated manual right now, because that's the foundation of how I learn. It's just something that I think needs to be there, and ultimately, that's all I can say. I mean... it's Daz's decision. Others have chosen differently. Blender updates their manual with each new version, and that is not a commercial product in a normal sense. But every company or group has to make their own decisions.
ETA: Actually, I would rather pay for Daz and get a manual with it. Free isn't everything.
I read the DS3 manual cover to cover. Unfortunately it is filled with gems like this:
"Gain / Gamma : Gain and Gamma are executed on every pixel in the formula: finalPixel = (curentPixel * Gain)^(1/Gamma). Users who wish to understand this feature should read about the RiExposure call in the Renderman spec.
Why don't the just say something helpful like: "A higher Gamma boosts the brightness without blowing out the highlights..."
I also found this exciting announcement - from March 2010.
Frankly speaking Sir, this reply is condescending, I mean who cares if You don't need a manual or that You have no patience. I surely hope DAZ does not believe what you do because that my friend is a lame excuse for not completing a comprehensive reference manual. Sure there are other resources available ONLINE but what about having something to reference offline.
These excuses in my opinion do not excuse DAZ of this responsibility and as has been said the online documentation center is incomplete at best. It was good of you to provide some links but think of those who have to scour the forum for essential info, that really throws a wrench into the creative process.
IF i came down hard on your reply it's only because this issue has been out there for over a year and it's still not right even though as you say it's a free program(in another of your replies) that's no excuse, there are lot's of free programs to numerous to list that furnish manuals.
Frankly speaking Sir, this reply is condescending, I mean who cares if You don't need a manual or that You have no patience. I surely hope DAZ does not believe what you do because that my friend is a lame excuse for not completing a comprehensive reference manual. Sure there are other resources available ONLINE but what about having something to reference offline.
These excuses in my opinion do not excuse DAZ of this responsibility and as has been said the online documentation center is incomplete at best. It was good of you to provide some links but think of those who have to scour the forum for essential info, that really throws a wrench into the creative process.
IF i came down hard on your reply it's only because this issue has been out there for over a year and it's still not right even though as you say it's a free program(in another of your replies) that's no excuse, there are lot's of free programs to numerous to list that furnish manuals.
It wasn't meant to be condescending. I'm just stating plain and simple info that often gets lost in all the drama here. People were saying there's never been a manual and there was. People were saying there's no documentation but there is. I rarely look in most manuals because they are so poorly written, not because I can't use one or don't need one. I do need documentation but I prefer video tutes, the more professionally done, the better. My opinion, as valid as your's or anyone else's. Free programs have online documentation these days, too, and DAZ has that. It's not complete, but it's there and they've always said they were going to get it done but things always change in the program so it will never be done to everyone's liking. Maybe they do think people wouldn't read a manual if they did make one - the evidence has been ample here over the years that many users never do look - they come here and ask and someone will tell them it's in the manual or documentation. I doubt we'll ever see an actual book manual - that's rare these days. Maybe they'll come out with a PDF when it's all updated that you can print out. But DAZ has been taking care of business and trying not to go under in this crappy economy. I cut them some slack as they've been doing as much as they can. If they were a company with a bigger staff, and deeper pockets, then maybe there would be a manual now, but some of it would be outdated already with the recent improvements. In the mean time, getting the bugs fixed, putting in some improvements, getting Genesis and the new formats and the forums and store working (converting all those installation files to something folks can use like zip files, making life easier for those who don't know what to do or where to put stuff with the DIM) I think are very important and are good "excuses." It would be nice though if the talent level, civility and intelligence on these forums would rise, but it being what it is, I'll always be frustrated by stupid questions and mis-informed or totally wrong answers. That's not being condescending.. that's telling it like it is. I ignore most of them as much as I can and think the folks who answer correctly are saints and really must be biting their tongues off. I have to tell you that much of what I've been trying to do the past several years has been held up by erroneous information sworn to as gospel on these forums. Would a manual have helped? - I doubt it. Most of the stuff I've been looking into has never been in a manual and has only been available with the correct information on other sites or obtained by watching videos or finding posts by a few lone souls here who do know what works and doesn't. But unfortunately, they are outnumbered. And that is not meant to be condescending. I'm more disappointed and saddened by the waste of time than anything else.
It is condescending inferring that anybody who needs a manual is a dope that would not use it anyway( a little harsh interpretation but I believe necessary to drive the point home). There are some who do that but they are not in the majority and as I have stated what IS provided is inadequate. Not everyone who uses or has problems comes to this forum unless they can't find a workable solution although granted a few will do as you say.
Just think if there was a Manual that traffic would surely diminish and you will have less to be impatient about.
It is condescending inferring that anybody who needs a manual is a dope that would not use it anyway( a little harsh interpretation but I believe necessary to drive the point home). There are some who do that but they are not in the majority and as I have stated what IS provided is inadequate. Not everyone who uses or has problems comes to this forum unless they can't find a workable solution although granted a few will do as you say.
Just think if there was a Manual that traffic would surely diminish and you will have less to be impatient about.
If it were only true. But those folks would never read the manual, because they never have and probably never will. I still don't think it's condescending. And I never said or inferred anyone who needs a manual is a dope. You're reading sometihing into it that's not there.
If it were only true. But those folks would never read the manual, because they never have and probably never will. I still don't think it's condescending. And I never said or inferred anyone who needs a manual is a dope. You're reading sometihing into it that's not there.
Since we can't see eye to eye as to what you were saying(I can see your point to some degree) can you at least agree that a manual would be nice to have if available to those of us who will read and use it?
If it were only true. But those folks would never read the manual, because they never have and probably never will. I still don't think it's condescending. And I never said or inferred anyone who needs a manual is a dope. You're reading sometihing into it that's not there.
Since we can't see eye to eye as to what you were saying(I can see your point to some degree) can you at least agree that a manual would be nice to have if available to those of us who will read and use it?
Yes, certainly it would be nice to have a manual. And I guess you just don't see the idiotic comments and questions, and awful pictures many folks post (some from pure laziness that don't try at least to check some good reference photos) that can be quite infuriating - it really makes us, as a community, look bad. But I take Richard Hazeltine's advice and ignore them as much as I can. But it does wear one down when trying to find good info on new changes and products to wade through a bunch of nonsense,
But I also think much can be learned from the videos that DAZ has posted about the new features they've added the past couple years and the docs that are here if you really check them out. Yes, they are not complete, but there is a lot of information here. The manual never was thick on the render portion since that is 3Delight and it's a version with features that are off unless you access them through plugins from Omnifreaker, DT, Age of Armour and some others - their info and help is better than what you'll find in most manuals and even on the 3Delight site. For DAZ to document what they didn't make, and plugins many folks will never buy, would seem kind of odd to me. Adam has some very good render tips and there are some from others that cover much of the stuff that's not subjective. Too often, folks get locked into thinking that "it should work this way" when in reality they should find out how it really does work and much of what is brought up would go away. I have a feeling Jorgen, the OP, from what I've read here and in another thread is locked into trying to make things work like Poser. I wish I knew more about the technical side of 3Delight so I could help him out, but I don't. All I can do is make suggestions that have helped find answers for me in my search for real info.
To quote Kevin Sanderson "Maybe they’ll come out with a PDF when it’s all updated that you can print out. But DAZ has been taking care of business and trying not to go under in this crappy economy"
Your constant harping about a bad economy as a defense of Daz'z poor business practices is dumbfounding to say the least. I have no idea what country you live in, but here in the U.S. the economy is doing just fine thank you. DAZ is based here so that bit of disinformation falls flat on its face. Millions of investors, of which I am one, continue to do well in the stock market. In the IT space (I worked in it for decades), some marginal skills are admittedly not in demand but that will change as well. Companies cut too deep and they will have to hire soon. Silicon Valley is suffering from a big hangover and legitimately so. Things got way out of hand there.
Tell you what Kevin Sanderson, just stop being an apoligist for Daz, and admit their business acumen is somewhat lacking. We all know the truth and it is as plain as day.
Sorry if this seems harsh, but a dose of reality is called for.
Here's a dose of reality. I live in the Detroit area. Most business is still slow here. It was already slow before the recession hit for a few years and just got worse when it did hit. The auto industry has started coming back here, with many fewer jobs, but not yet in Europe. Europe is still having money problems. Much of DAZ's business has come from Europe over the years. I'm in the broadcasting and voice over business that still has not come back. We took big pay cuts to keep our jobs where I work when the recession hit and nobody has seen wages restored, or a raise, in 7 years and there are still more cuts looming in the whole industry. The entire IT department for one company is going to be let go in the next month according to one tipsheet. There are actually cuts evry week, but they don't get coverage. The advertising business is changing, money is going elsewhere, and it's not like it was. I used to spend hundreds of dollars here a year, but not in a long while. I'm happy for you but there is a reality you are missing. People are still hurting, millions are still out of work. Many companies have found they can get by on fewer people. They are still not planning to hire anyone until they absolutely have to. And many of us who do work lost what we had and have no way of getting it back yet. I'm making about $15,000 less a year than I was with the same bills I had. Count your blessings. DAZ business may be back a little with the Poser crowd coming back, but it still must've been hurt by the economy as it's not an essential business. People don't have to buy the latest stuff from DAZ.
Let's all keep in mind a few things:
1) Political discussions, which include arguing about the state of the economy, are not appropriate for this forum.
2) If you disagree with what someone is saying, keep the discussion to the points of disagreement, not the individual making those points.
If daz is unwilling to provide documentation in an easy access place, then I wish the wiki were editable by everyone. That way the community could construct their own manual
Even the unprofessional iClone has all their videos on 1 easy organized page. It makes it much more accessible than the daz wiki where 90% of the links I want to know about are empty
http://www.reallusion.com/iclone/iclone_training.aspx
I wish DAZ nothing but good fortune, but they have let me down on the documentation front. Also, much of the documentation for older products is permanently AWOL. Britney said that she could not find the documentation for many of the products still active in the store.
BTW I paid 150$ for DS4 pro, so it wasn't free for me. Does anyone know of comparably priced software that is in a similar documentation vacuum?
The irony is that the collected wisdom of the forums could create a great manual if just it were organized in a comprehensible way. The problem with using google search: it assumes that you know what the technical term is. If you have never used the Polygon Group Editor tool, how can you be expected to search for information on it. You don't even know what it is called.
This is a great suggestion and should be forwarded to whoever is in charge. I also paid for for Studio 4 advanced and content creation toolkit and DID not ask for my money back during the Pro give away because if principle.
I know that doesn't grant me any browny points but if I did get them I'd spend them towards a manual or an open User Wiki Documentation Center