Morphs wanted
broncomech
Posts: 0
I have been looking for a couple of morphs to add some additional realism to a character am working on.
Has any one produced morphs to create bra and pantie lines for any female figure?
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Do you mean to look like the imprints on flesh garments leave when removed, or something else?
If so it's probably better to do it with a displacement map (though I've not yet seen either product, just tan lines).
I'm guessing broncomech wants morphs for clothing that leave visible panty lines. Like the gal who wears a skirt and blouse 2 sizes to small and you can tell she wears t-back undies.
Am I on the right track? Seems like something you would have to do yourself to each clothing item. There is not a deformer or one-stop-shopping for adding any kind of morphs, not just your specific request, to cover all clothing. At least, not that I am aware of. If there were, we would be able to have wrinkle deformers that put wrinkles where we need them, when we want them.
Cool idea, though. Maybe one of the wizards (SY) can develop something.
It would be possible, to a degree, using a custom made template in the transfer utility. Unfortunately I'm not able set the time aside to do that right now, but I can give a very brief overview of the steps involved:
1. Take something like the Bodysuit Template, or SY's fantastic rigging system template.
2. Create some wrinkle morphs in the more generic places: crotch, knees, bust, shoulder/underarm, waist zone (or in this case, create panty lines / bra lines )
3. ) Save out the new template figure
4.) Place a copy the new template figure in (Daz studio directory)/content/data/Daz 3d/genesis/projection templates/
The can then use the transfer utility to transfer those morphs to any any item of clothing.
I'd go into better detail, but I really do suck at explain things. Perhaps if this is confusing, someone else can explain better.
The bra and panty lines morphs sounds like a good idea, but I think due to the small areas it would be better as micropoly displacement.
The wrinkles are very doable. I started on this very project last week after seeing Randall's demo utilizing the Supersuit which I believe might be gleaned from something SickleYield stumbled upon, and uses this technique in one of her products.
Mine will be a full set freebie created from dynamic draping on custom (under) clothes created in Marvelous Designer 2. I'm calling it Dynamic Wrinkles For Genesis Conforming Clothing.
I already created a full bodysuit (tight, and loose), an A-shirt, and a T-Shirt. My testing yielded good results except on some extreme outerwear (far from Genesis' body) with built in wrinkles. I plan to create separate body part bases that only affect a certain area, so mix-n-match works smoothly without destroying previously applied morphs.
I'm knee deep in a commercial venture right now, so I will only be able to work on this sporadically. I'm sure SickleYield, or someone like her will probably get something similar to market soon. It really is a great thing, and would make for a good commercial product.
*EDIT: Went and retrieved some screenshots from my workbox. Dynamic Wrinkles proof of Concept:
1. Dynamic A-Shirt (pre-morphed_alpha).
2. Dynamic T-Shirt with some morphs created.
3. DAZ default T-Shirt "fit to" hidden Dynamic T-Shirt.
4. Sample of Basic torso/abdomen wrinkles applied.
5. Sample of wrinkles applied to a pose.
Ah, that makes perfect sense. The garment would take on the shape of your wrinkly undergarment (that sounded like an insult, but wasn't. "You and your wrinkly undergarments...") I like it. And I like the example you showed above. Will gladly buy when you are finished. But you said "freebie?" Very generous.
You hit the nail on the head!
I think the effect could be produces with d-formers but I am not that good with those yet.
I have done something similar in Rhino3D for a S3 figure, but there seem to be some major differences in import /export .obj files in DS4.5.
The last morph I attempted was a total failure. The mesh came apart where there no seams and the UV map for many surrounding vertices was damaged.
A morph that could be applied to the shape would be a huge time saving.
I don't think deformers would work out very well for this. They are better for more generalized deformations from my experience. Something this detailed doesn't seem to be very effective use of them. I would tend towards a displacement also. In general I would think of creating a displacement map, but I am interested in seeing Daremok's solution. It sounds interesting, more advanced and flexible then a basic displacement map.
I think you are right, I have not been able to get fine detail with the d-from tool.
Daremok's process sounds like a big improvement for adding detail to clothing, will be watching for progress on his project.
Well one would have to create a whole boatload of very small ones to attempt something with that level of detail, and that doesn't seem to be very efficient. It'd be easier to pop it into Hexagon or some other modeling tool at that point I would think. I tend to think of deformers as a quick and dirty tool for quick adjustments or for animated deformations such as waves, or something burrowing underground/under skin, etc...
Not at all, be my guest. The Dynamic Wrinkles in general seem like a cool idea, but as for the clothing lines - stuff that can mainly be used on super-tight clothing in pinups is out of my wheelhouse. I'd rather have my name in credits in full-on sex scenes than the "secretary popping out of her terrible blouse" renders.
Daremo, that looks amazing.
If you cannot get fine detail with the deformer tool, chances are you wont get fine detail at all. Fine detail on mesh is strictly determined by polygon count. Some clothing have high counts and will show details when you modify or deform, others will not. So Dameroks idea will work on clothing with high polygon counts that can mimic the results, however low poly clothing won't work. Easy example..Ever dialed up a piece of clothing when Genesis has a nipple morph and seen the blockyness in that area no matter how much smoothing you add? That is because the clothing mesh does not contain enough polygons to mimic the nipple morph. This will be the same case with the wrinkles. If the clothing item does not have enough polygons to accurately trace the wrinkles, you are going to get undesired results. I have already tried this wrinkle idea some time ago and thought I'd just tell you my findings. It is a great idea in theory, but will only work if the clothing model you wish to add wrinkles to mimics or comes close to the source wrinkled clothing polygon amount. So it is a cool idea, just don't expect it to work on everything. This is why some PA\Vendors use displacement maps for detail\wrinkles because they wish to keep the polygon count to a minimum so it is more resource friendly.
My thought exactly...
broncomech:
My apologies. Displacement map is what you want for your lines. The displacement mapping in 3Delight renderer creates on-the-fly micropolygonal displacement akin to dynamic sub-division (yes, I know, they are not the same thing, or even remotely close. Illustrative purposes only). This is done at render time, hence the reason you do not see your displacement on your mesh until you hit render.
There is no special way (that I am working on/created). The only other option would be to literally hand cut many, many polygons in the shape of the bra/panty lines into the Genesis mesh, and sculpt in the deformations.
Zev0:
I respectfully disagree.
Fine detail is only determined by surface mesh in real-time without mapping aides (displacement/normal), but you are right, if one wants to do this solely with mesh deformation, then you would need a hell of a lot of localized polygons.
Displacement mapping, on the other hand would give him the fine detail he is looking for that the D-Form tool could not achieve.
Also, my wrinkle testing on the shirt above is on the default DAZ T-shirt included with DS 4.x series for Genesis. It is not a heavy polygonal mesh, but that is the true beauty of the new 4.x series and Genesis. You can add the Sub-D modifier, turn it all the way up, and you get decent results compared to the original sculpt. I have not added a Smoothing modifier, but one could as well. Though, it will lessen the effect of the wrinkles, so one would have to turn up the wrinkles beyond the default.
I agree, though, that this will not work for everything. Especially clothing with built in (topology) wrinkles. Would have to create a smooth morph to apply before dynamic wrinkles.
And, yes, I agree with you regarding the displacement mapped wrinkles, but this is where I find the need for more accurate representation wrinkles in clothing for posing. Sure, the displacement (or modeled in) wrinkles look fine when the model is just standing there, but I really get taken out of an image when I see a posed character with canned wrinkles that don't fit the situation of the clothing.
As for resource friendly. Done as a morphing system with in-house Sub-D I would suspect is not that intensive with how DAZ implemented the systems. I don't know for sure, and have nothing to base this on. A DAZ coder would have to submit the examples of resource differences between using morphs with Sub-D opposed to using just displacement mapping.
I believe that displacement mapping would be lighter, but I would still like to see a base comparison.
This kind of venture could always be redone as a series of displacement maps created from the originals, but one would have to deal with constant preset loading instead of just sliding a dial. What do you think?
I think what you have will work with the majority of clothing, unlike displacement maps. I love it.
Also, if deformers are applied before subdivision one could certainly get finer detail using this system than with dozens of magnets which would be unmanageable at best anyway.
You could do displacement maps on demand or for popular items, but that means mapping for each set. It's not worth it. The best solution is your approach with the underlying wrinkled clothing. That is the most dynamic approach. However look at my attachments so you can see what I was talking about. The more condensed clothing set will handle wrinkles fine, however the Less condensed wont work, and there are lots of clothing sets with less condensed polys. Most Gen4 clothing items are normally higher poly than Genesis, so most of those will be fine. You'd just have to look at them in wireframe to see first. Either way, I am sure it will work on a good amount of clothing so it is worth pursuing:)
...Well darn. Smoothing gets applied before subdivision, or at least manages only to take into account the base mesh. That's really unfortunate.
Well I haven't had time to test this out yet, but if one uses SubD and a displacement map, the displacement will be applied before or after the SubD? I know I've seen displacement done on a SubD surface in other packages and it's worked very nicely, ie.... the base mesh doesn't need to have a high poly count, rather the item can have SubD applied on an as need basis with displacement put on after. That is the beauty of working with low poly items that are designed for SubD/displacement maps. It would seem to me this would be a key factor in future modeling, low poly at distance, with low detail texture maps, high SubD with detailed shaders, swapped out dynamically with distance from camera.
I hadn't considered adding into the mix shells that one could use to 'fit to' to act as a generalized deformer for many items such as Daremok is doing. (I know others have done similar things, but I'm sometimes slow on the uptake ;p) That definitely opens up some creative flexibility into the process.
Yep. A higher sub-d Just smoothes out the base mesh, It does not add detail. All Mesh edits must be done at Base level. So yes, displacement detail works at the same level as a sub-d item or not.
Hmm, well I know I've seen detail added to a SubD object without having to bake down the SubD in other software packages... :/
Since it works that way in DAZ, it means that it is something that would get lost on export if not baked down it sounds like in the packages that do this. They must be doing something with the mesh such as defining edge sharpness, etc.. that doesn't get saved with a base obj without baking down.
I could be wrong but I thought Blender Brushes worked on SubD meshes.
Well that's disappointing... I was hoping to create low poly objects that could have SubD and then displacement applied :/
Yes in Blender but not natively in Daz. Eg its like taking a low res pic at 100x100 and blowing it up to 1000x1000 and increasing the DPI.. The quality of the image is not going to get sharper or better when viewing at the same zoom level. Same principle here.
Which is silly. Not that it doesn't add detail, but that it doesn't apply smoothing to the subdivided mesh, instead of smoothing, then subdividing which wastes all the potential of added geometry aside from the 'polished' effect.
That you can do by all means..The displacement detail will remain the same because it is only factored in at render times..
It's not the same principle. When blowing up an image, you don't get more detail, no, but you can add detail from another image that wouldn't have been possible at the lower resolution, which is closer to what's being attempted here.
Sounds like something that should be high on the list of 'What do you want to see in DAZ Studio 5.'
Which is silly. Not that it doesn't add detail, but that it doesn't apply smoothing to the subdivided mesh, instead of smoothing, then subdividing which wastes all the potential of added geometry aside from the 'polished' effect.
Yep. But we all like things smoother instead of sharp edges lol.
Yep. But we all like things smoother instead of sharp edges lol.
:lol:
True.
It's not the same principle. When blowing up an image, you don't get more detail, no, but you can add detail from another image that wouldn't have been possible at the lower resolution, which is closer to what's being attempted here.
It is the same principle. You are just adding a blur effect IE smoothing..The source image is not being enhanced for clarity in anyway, but you are working at a higher dpi IE sub-d Level.
It's not a matter of SubD adding detail, it is just adding effective pollys that the displacement can act on 'if' the displacement was factored after the SubD.