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Morphs wanted

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  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    I could be wrong but I thought Blender Brushes worked on SubD meshes.

    I thought Blender Brushes applied displacement...

    To be clear: Displacement is a Rendertime calculation (currently, that will change if OpenSubDiv is ever fully implemented).

    A Subdivided Mesh CAN have Displacement applied. Saying otherwise is innacurate.

  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited April 2013

    Zev0 said:
    Agent_Unawares said:
    Zev0 said:
    Yes in Blender but not natively in Daz. Eg its like taking a low res pic at 100x100 and blowing it up to 1000x1000 and increasing the DPI.. The quality of the image is not going to get sharper or better when viewing at the same zoom level. Same principle here.

    It's not the same principle. When blowing up an image, you don't get more detail, no, but you can add detail from another image that wouldn't have been possible at the lower resolution, which is closer to what's being attempted here.

    It is the same principle. you are just adding a blur effect..The source image is not being enhanced for clarity in anyway.
    It is not even close. Subdividing a mesh is akin to blowing up an image to 4X size. It will not enhance any detail from the original, however, if you were overlay a detailed image that started at 4X the size, all the detail from that image would be added, because while you don't have any extra information from the original, you do have 4X the space to work in.

    EDIT: We're not talking about enhancing a source on its own, but adding further detail to it afterwards.

    Post edited by agent unawares on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    Agent_Unawares said:
    Zev0 said:
    Yes in Blender but not natively in Daz. Eg its like taking a low res pic at 100x100 and blowing it up to 1000x1000 and increasing the DPI.. The quality of the image is not going to get sharper or better when viewing at the same zoom level. Same principle here.

    It's not the same principle. When blowing up an image, you don't get more detail, no, but you can add detail from another image that wouldn't have been possible at the lower resolution, which is closer to what's being attempted here.

    It is the same principle. You are just adding a blur effect IE smoothing..The source image is not being enhanced for clarity in anyway, but you are working at a higher dpi IE sub-d Level.

    It appears you are missing something Zev. That may be the effective way that SubD works in DAZ Studio, but that isn't how it works in all software. If the displacement is done 'after' the SubD, then it is basically like AU described.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,089
    edited April 2013

    Agent_Unawares said:
    Zev0 said:
    Agent_Unawares said:
    Zev0 said:
    Yes in Blender but not natively in Daz. Eg its like taking a low res pic at 100x100 and blowing it up to 1000x1000 and increasing the DPI.. The quality of the image is not going to get sharper or better when viewing at the same zoom level. Same principle here.

    It's not the same principle. When blowing up an image, you don't get more detail, no, but you can add detail from another image that wouldn't have been possible at the lower resolution, which is closer to what's being attempted here.

    It is the same principle. you are just adding a blur effect..The source image is not being enhanced for clarity in anyway.
    It is not even close. Subdividing a mesh is akin to blowing up an image to 4X size. It will not enhance any detail from the original, however, if you were overlay a detailed image that started at 4X the size, all the detail from that image would be added, because while you don't have any extra information from the original, you do have 4X the space to work in.

    EDIT: We're not talking about enhancing a source on its own, but adding further detail to it afterwards. And this is my point. On Genesis you do not have that X4 space to work on because all edits must be done at base level. You cannot do any modifications at a sub-d level. So regardless how high the sub-d level the details is only as high as what is done at base level..And the detail from a displacement detail will look exactly the same at any level because it is a texture map. If I sub-d Genesis by 4 its not gonna enhance my skin texture.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited April 2013

    Well, it all 'seems' to come back to DAZ Studio apparently calculating displacement before SubD rather then after.

    Edit: just noticed "Genesis" in your last post Zev... no one was talking about Genesis specifically, but rather objects like clothing. Genesis is a whole different discussion.

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,089
    edited April 2013

    For clothing it is the same principle...I just used Genesis as an example. Genesis and clothing follow the same rules with regard to subdivision. This is if you are using clothing on Genesis.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,089
    edited April 2013

    Gedd said:
    Zev0 said:
    Agent_Unawares said:
    Zev0 said:
    Yes in Blender but not natively in Daz. Eg its like taking a low res pic at 100x100 and blowing it up to 1000x1000 and increasing the DPI.. The quality of the image is not going to get sharper or better when viewing at the same zoom level. Same principle here.

    It's not the same principle. When blowing up an image, you don't get more detail, no, but you can add detail from another image that wouldn't have been possible at the lower resolution, which is closer to what's being attempted here.

    It is the same principle. You are just adding a blur effect IE smoothing..The source image is not being enhanced for clarity in anyway, but you are working at a higher dpi IE sub-d Level.

    It appears you are missing something Zev. That may be the effective way that SubD works in DAZ Studio, but that isn't how it works in all software. If the displacement is done 'after' the SubD, then it is basically like AU described. I am specifically talking about Daz and its rules since that is what we are using. I know in other apps it works differently.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited April 2013

    Zev0 said:
    For clothing it is the same principle...I just used Genesis as an example. Genesis and clothing follow the same rules with regard to subdivision. This is if you are using clothing on Genesis.

    Those rules of subdivision are the problem. Try to look past the limits DS has. A subdivided mesh does indeed have 4X the potential detail, it's Studio's fault that it's not taken advantage of.
    Post edited by agent unawares on
  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    Gedd said:
    Zev0 said:
    Agent_Unawares said:
    Zev0 said:
    Yes in Blender but not natively in Daz. Eg its like taking a low res pic at 100x100 and blowing it up to 1000x1000 and increasing the DPI.. The quality of the image is not going to get sharper or better when viewing at the same zoom level. Same principle here.

    It's not the same principle. When blowing up an image, you don't get more detail, no, but you can add detail from another image that wouldn't have been possible at the lower resolution, which is closer to what's being attempted here.

    It is the same principle. You are just adding a blur effect IE smoothing..The source image is not being enhanced for clarity in anyway, but you are working at a higher dpi IE sub-d Level.

    It appears you are missing something Zev. That may be the effective way that SubD works in DAZ Studio, but that isn't how it works in all software. If the displacement is done 'after' the SubD, then it is basically like AU described. I am specifically talking about Daz since that is what we are using. I know in other apps it works differently.
    ...Well since everyone else is talking about the fact that DS should work differently we're working at cross-purposes.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,089
    edited April 2013

    The way daz uses Genesis and CC sub-d is a different system. It works for what it is supposed to do. If you want to make content for it you have to work according to how it operates within Studio, so there are rules you have to follow.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited April 2013

    DAZ Studio 4.5.2.40 can now subdivide to level 4, that's 256 polygons per quad.

    Level 1 = 4
    Level 2 = 16
    Level 3 = 64
    Level 4 = 256

    And it has OpenSubDiv, which will become the new Subdivision Standard in the industry... meaning, more predictable results when making base cages.

    Post edited by wancow on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited April 2013

    DS supports OpenSubDiv? If so it should be able to have displacements applied after the SubDiv I would think? Unless they aren't following spec...

    Edit: oh... future version .. :)

    Post edited by Joe Cotter on
  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,089
    edited April 2013

    wancow said:
    DAZ Studio 4.5.2.40 can now subdivide to level 4, that's 256 polygons per quad.

    Level 1 = 4
    Level 2 = 16
    Level 3 = 64
    Level 4 = 256

    And it has OpenSubDiv, which will become the new Subdivision Standard in the industry... meaning, more predictable results when making base cages.

    Yes I saw that.. Looks very promising:) Might even be a solution:)

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,089
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    DS supports OpenSubDiv? If so it should be able to have displacements applied after the SubDiv I would think? Unless they aren't following spec...

    Edit: oh... future version .. :)

    I am itching to try it out Gedd, but I can only do that once my current project is complete lol. Can't risk Messing up Daz now with a beta install.

  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    The way daz uses Genesis and CC sub-d is a different system. It works for what it is supposed to do. If you want to make content for it you have to work according to how it operates within Studio, so there are rules you have to follow.
    And? We're just talking about a way the program could be improved, not saying "make content this way, it'll totally work as-is.".
    ...Well darn. Smoothing gets applied before subdivision, or at least manages only to take into account the base mesh. That's really unfortunate.

    This is still something that should be changed in Studio, or at least there should be the option to change it. Smoothing would be far more useful then.
  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    DS supports OpenSubDiv? If so it should be able to have displacements applied after the SubDiv I would think? Unless they aren't following spec...

    Edit: oh... future version .. :)


    I think displacement is applied afterwards now, since it's done at rendertime. It's other deformations of the geometry that ignore subdivision entirely.
  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    There's no "maybe" about it. OpenSubDiv is being forced on everyone by the three 8,000 Pound Gorillas in the room: AutoDesk, Pixar and MicroSoft!

    It WILL be the standard. There is no getting around it.

    What I found VERY interesting is that DAZ Studio is the first commercially available 3D Application to announce that it has implemented (not intends to implement, but has implemented) OpenSubDiv. It beat all the big boys to the punch...

    TAKE THAT CGTALK!!! :P

  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited December 1969

    The Future's so Bright :)

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited April 2013

    Agent_Unawares said:
    I think displacement is applied afterwards now, since it's done at rendertime. It's other deformations of the geometry that ignore subdivision entirely.

    This is exactly right!! How did we get onto the notion that Displacement Mapping and Subdivison don't work at the same time? They absoluteley do!

    Post edited by wancow on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited December 1969

    What other deformations?

  • agent unawaresagent unawares Posts: 3,513
    edited December 1969

    Gedd said:
    What other deformations?

    The ones from smoothing and deformers, at least.
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited December 1969

    mmm, I thought maybe the magnets but I didn't think about smoothing since it gets lumped together with SubD so much I forget it's actually a separate function, and here is a good example of how subtle things like that can make a significant difference.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,089
    edited April 2013

    Sub-d doesnt ignore, it just smoothes what is there at base. So if base level has little detail, Sub-d will smooth it out even more. This is why Freak5 is so cool. At base level it looks like a mess in Zbrush, but Sub-d reads that detail and smoothes it. EG the poly morphs details are pulled out to the extreme in order for them to still be visible after subdivision. Thats the hard thing about making morphs, knowing what they will look like after sub-d. Here is Genesis foot in its base form. Thats what we have to work with lol...

    1.jpg
    1920 x 1080 - 566K
    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • Joe CotterJoe Cotter Posts: 3,259
    edited December 1969

    Well that happens when SubD is initally applied to a mesh in something like Blender, but one can then go on to add detail on top of that initial smoothing.

  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,089
    edited December 1969

    Ye that sounds like a handy thing to have...

  • broncomechbroncomech Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    DaremoK3 said:
    broncomech:

    My apologies. Displacement map is what you want for your lines. The displacement mapping in 3Delight renderer creates on-the-fly micropolygonal displacement akin to dynamic sub-division (yes, I know, they are not the same thing, or even remotely close. Illustrative purposes only). This is done at render time, hence the reason you do not see your displacement on your mesh until you hit render.

    There is no special way (that I am working on/created). The only other option would be to literally hand cut many, many polygons in the shape of the bra/panty lines into the Genesis mesh, and sculpt in the deformations.

    Thank you for the information. I will give displacement mapping a try if I can find a good tutorial on the process, and it doesn't require expensive software I don't already own.
    I have Adobe CS5 and Rhino 5 to work with

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