To Post or not to Post
Joe Cotter
Posts: 3,259
There is often a firestorm around this topic and I thought it would be good to get some of people's opinions out in the air in a (hopefully) genial discussion. The one rule I would ask each to apply is to stay friendly and respectful of others opinions.
I have seen the gamut from '3D renders are just a base to build my image on, much of my work is in post.. that's what makes it my art' to 'Post is sacrilegious in 3D art (insert reason/situation here.)'
For my part, I tend to believe all of the tools at our disposal is just a means to an end, that of creating an image. What works for any one person is going to be different then another and that's ok. The only time I see post as not ok is when there is a contest or situation where post is specifically mentioned as not part of that, due to wanting to focus on the base item. A question came up in the Luxus render thread about this, which is what prompted me to start the discussion. It is a good example of a situation people might have very different and strong views, especially tending towards no post, as the concept revolves around what the render engine can do. I understand that, but my take on it is a bit different. I would personally like seeing images that have had post done also, as long as the post was pointed out in a before/after situation so that people could see situations that prompt artists to do post work when using the render engine, discuss methods to avoid post, and discuss when it might be most efficient to fix in post. In this case, while the no post rule might seem logical at first, on closer inspection it seems to me it limits discussion.
Anyways, I open the topic to the floor. What do you all think.
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Comments
I always use post in my renders. I adjust the lighting and add various effects when needed. It's quicker to adjust lighting in post than get it perfect the first time with a render, but a good base render is always a good starting point.
Quite funny, I was gonna update my dA journal later this week about this very subject - postwork; synergy vs snobbery :lol:
I've yet to come across a render that wouldn't look better with some sort of postwork, even if it was simply to apply sharpness to the image... but that is, of course, my personal opinion.
I'm totally relaxed about what anybody does, so long as they don't try to misrepresent what they've done.
For me, it entirely depends what prompted me to start an image -
If it's for a client (well, I don't exactly have folk throwing their money at me, so maybe I should say when doing requests) or something very specific that I've thought of myself, I'll plan what to do using whatever resources are available to me in order to get the result I want as efficiently as I know how. This has sometimes meant an image with some elements rendered in 3Delight, others elements in Luxrender, and then combining them together before painting on top.
But there are other times when I just want to do 'something' with a new set/prop/character, and I'll maybe set up a scene based on my mood, let it run, and then improvise after seeing how it turned out.
So long as you're genuinely happy with the raw unretouched renders you produce, great. If you feel your work could do with a bit of post work, equally great.
You're right this is been hammered to death many times here and I would wager elsewhere.
I look at it in a very simple and easy way...how we use the tools we have is a personal choice and like everything who am I to tell or persude others to my why of thinking.
When I look at images I don't look at what is postwork or CG I just enjoy them for what they are....art.
I think postwork is fine. Can't say I'm particularly that good at it personally though. =-) I'm still learning how to do stuff in daz, and just beginning to understand photoshop and how to make different looks work. =-)
I am quite a fan of postwrok, although I am always very pleased if I do produce an image that doesn't need tweaking.
My Fave way of postworking is to use photo filters. After all if Photographers use filters it should be equally acceptable to use them in 3D art.
I happen to like filters also, love some of the artwork posted at Filter Forge. :)
When I was still using my old SLR I even had a set of filters that could be added to the lens, so you actually took the photo through the filter.
Lensbaby :)
If it's a promo other than the first, "artistic" promo, i don't post work except perhaps to 'assemble' the image - render front and back, for example, and put them o the same background.
Otherwise? I postwork what's needed.
I used these
My signature says it all.
You know why I don't do post work?
I'm LAZY! I hate doing post work. You can do my post work!
That's a good point, although I would submit that it's not actually lazy as the amount of work needed for most basic postwork that would do the most good (80/20 rule) is very little if one is comfortable with the tools and processes. The real issue is the learning curve. Once past that, post can be quick and easy for some very nice results.
Postwork is part of the pipleline, even if it's just tweaking contrast. Tweaking this alone can really boost a good image to a great one.
Also sometimes you can do creative things in post that are no reasonable with the software you have. Sometimes it's faster to make certain changes via post then it would be to model/render it. It gives you more options.
Postwork skills are valuable to artists but I can see why some hate it or avoid it. It requires time to learn and practice. Bad postwork makes for a bad image, which can leave a bad taste.
The only folks I've seen really adamant about not postworking images tend to be more on the technical side. They like to prove what a render engine can do, or show off how well they can use it themselves. "no postwork" badges may carry some weight to other technical artists, but common art appreciators don't care about this type of stuff.
I can see when vendors don't postwork their products, and I do appreciate it. When selling content to other artist it makes perfect sense not to touch things up.
Yes, in promo art I would agree it could be disingenuous if not clearly defined as where post was applied. But that goes into more then just post work as doing tweeks to settings that the average user wouldn't know about or be able to do starts to move into this territory also. I appreciate when PA's include information on how they got the results they did, regardless of method. Some 'out of the box' and AO renders are always appreciated, but would like to see mesh renders also myself, although I'm starting to wander off-topic.
I have no preference to be honest. I don't have a ratio that defines how much postwork I do or don't. I have made images with no postwork, a little and where the whole image is one big postworked piece.
I am lucky, in one way (and not in the aspect I have missed the joys of art all these years) that I have NOT done any art for over 40 year and I have the luxuary of not pigeon holeing myself into a style or a particular genre. In essence I am explorering myself through making different types of images how I get there depends on alot of things.
I guess a related question is, who here would appreciate more discussion of post work done on an image when someone puts their image up, and who would rather leave it a mystery?
I think you'd probably be better served with a thread about technique...
One thing I do do is render in layers. And I think not many people know this, but when you render a figure or an object over a background image, it incorporates that image's colours into the edges on the alpha channel. Very important if you're going to layer over a background because if you render without a background image, the background colour is what's there, and you get this pasted in look on your final...
The type of art I do no one cares about how I got to the result so I don't mention anything upfront. I don't think that most of my audience knows the difference. I still have visitors that ask me if my art is 3D, or a photo manipulation, or a drawing! So outside of the 3D art community I don't know that this type of discussion is important.
But if someone asked me particulars about a piece I don't mind explaining. I'm not hiding anything.
@Wancow, yep, I was going to mention something like that myself but did not. I love rendering in passes, it gives you a lot of power.
EDIT: And I personally can't think of a time I really cared the specifics of how someone did their render. So it's fine by me if others don't disclose if they postworked or not.
I do like to know whether an image has been postworked or not, but the answer isn't likely to affect my opinion of the piece either way.
I'm equally impressed with people who can leverage amazing digital painting and editing skills and with those whose beautiful renders require no postwork. I tend to postwork most (but not all) of my more labor-intensive projects, and usually don't do postwork on quickie renders. When posting an image, I usually state whether it has been postworked or not, as others may find this information relevant.
In some situations (namely product promos and certain contest entries, depending on the contest theme), I do prefer non-postworked images.
I'll tell you what I do appreciate: when people post a note on HOW they accomplished what they've posted. On DA it doesn't happen that often. I don't care if they did post work or not. I love it when they tell me what render engine they used, what figure they used, what kind of shaders they used, if they did post work or not... I LOVE knowing people's processes.
On the old site we had one thread in the Art studio where we invited people to post there work flow, with 6 images to illustrate it. (6 was the Max number of images on the old forum). We didn't get too many people join in, but as the Art Studio is getting used a bit more on this new forum we could always try something like that again.
I want to eventually try out a pipeline where I create backgrounds in Vue along with an HDRI so that the lighting can match the background. Something a bit more refined then the typical image domes one sees now.
I just started a separate thread on the ideal gallery as I didn't want to sidetrack this one too much.
If you are making a piece of art, it should be about the art itself...not the technique.
If people are too focused on this or that technique and highlights that as a selling point for the art, then the art itself is obviously not the message anymore, and as such it becomes meaningless.
How much work anyone puts into the art they create is up to them.
Some may be content with a simple, yet skillful render...and others may feel they can add to the art with post work.
In the end it really should be about what the art says, not it's process.
Rawn
I do also, I learn a lot this way. Even images I might not notice I find things interesting at times in what someone was trying to accomplish and how they went about it. It has often given me much more respect for the image then I might have just in passing.
I see this also, although I do like to know how as it helps me learn. That is why for me, it would be nice to have a gallery where the art alone was the default standard view, with comments/details views as alternates one could show/make default depending on their perspectives, and the artists could include/not depending on theirs.
I'll be quiet now... I'm being to visible ;p
You don't see it much on DA because most folks on DA don't care. Most DA members are not 3D specialist.
I sometimes like to see how people do their process, but that is what tutorials are interviews are for.
But if you are ever curious about what someone has posted I am sure they will let you know if you ask. Anytime someone asks me I reply.
For a short duration when I submitted art I included contents and workflow. If I mentioned LUX/Daz Studio/Photoshop I almost always got someone to grief me about my software of choice. I haven't had anyone give me a hard time about software after I stopped listing this information. Listing the software is so easy, so I tried doing it. But listing content is more of a time sink and I it always took me a while to round up all the assets. And most didn't care so I save time by not doing it.
Ok, I lied about keeping quiet.. But.. only because you brought up such a good point. In a place like DA I would definitely agree with you and Rawn. The audience there is different, I would not want to draw away from the image as it stands on it's own, and I might even be trying to sell images where this would work against that. This is a case where mystery/magic is the defining factor due to the audience and intent from my perspective. A gallery at a technical site where those techniques are frowned upon, well that just makes one a target for negativity. But, this is the heart of why I think a gallery at DAZ could serve an important function. The audience and for some, the intent is totally different then other galleries one might post in. I for one would share more information of my images in a DAZ or Rendo gallery then others. Well, if doing work in Blender, a Blender gallery, etc... Even then, it would be nice if one could choose the way they view the gallery.
As to asking, it's nice that you share if someone asks and I can appreciate that but there's a saying that goes something like (and I'm paraphrasing) 'The trick is to know what question to ask.' Although there is something to be said about sharing knowledge with those that are astute enough to notice in the first place.
LOL! Great signature!
My take...
I view using DAZ very much like being a film maker but in many ways you get to take on multiple roles other than just director. If you are so inclined, you get the be the art director, the director of photography and even the costume designer. The director normally doesn't build the set, doesn't make the clothes, doesn't do the actor's makeup, etc. So it is up to you on how best to make a scene using all the tools at your disposal. So there is already a certain degree of artistry required within the application itself.
Now, just like with making a film or doing a photo shoot, there is always a post production process. Such is the case with DAZ and 3D art imho. I am always far more impressed with 3D art that makes me say "Wow! How did they achieve that look or style or do that affect?"
To me doing a straight render and calling it a day, is like a photographer using a Polaroid. Sure you can take some great shots on the fly, but I doubt many models will want you to do their photo shoot.