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I like doing postwork, it's fun and it's probably faster than rendering in terms of completing the image quickly. (Well, I admit to being impatient when it comes to making art.) I usually adjust colors and saturation or paint over things that need a slight touch up . I try my best not to overdo it. I prefer my renders to look more "natural". The only time I don't like post work is when people overuse filters to the point it looks like more filter than render. Depending on how long the initial render took, I may render in layers but I always do post work in layers.
Quick question... and I don't mean to sound like I'm disparaging postwork, because I'm not. But a lot of people have said that postwork is "fun" and while I can see that for some elements (mixing layers) other elements, mostly painting elements, I find distinctly not fun. But then I've had bad luck with tablets (broke one in a rush to get to my daughter when she was very young, had another I got second hand that the bluetooth would regularly get flakey on.) so I use a trackball, which, for me, makes painting in elements awkward.
So those who find postwork fun, what hardware are you using to do your postwork?
I only use what I have - GIMP, Photoshop Elements 8, Wacom Bamboo Fun tablet and a mouse (or mousepad). For me, since I'm mostly a 2D artist, the "fun" comes from the fact I feel more comfortable working that way and have more control over what I'm doing. Basically, I'm editing the render like I would a drawing I scanned, I know what I want and more or less how to get there with the tools I have.
Postwork is fun for me because I've always enjoyed working in photo and paint programs. I love working in layers for some reason.
I've had a wacom for a long time and I think they are invaluable. I use a trackball but I can't stand using it to paint.
For me at least, the 2D parts of the project are more natural to me. Even when I wasn't doing 3D I enjoyed doing photomanips, collages and drawing terrible looking characters. I've even done a few projects where I colored other artists drawings. I really love coloring!
All the skills I developed doing those things can be used in postwork. I've got many more hours of experience in "postwork" than I do 3D because I really do think all those other things I've mentioned are related and can apply to postwork.
EDIT: Also for me postwork is fun because I like to see how much I can enhance the image. I always compare the before and after to get a grin.
Tablet, no question... and Wacom, there really isn't a substitute due to quality. Wired are always more robust in my experience if one can handle being tethered. The issue with a tablet is that there is a learning curve. But, once used to it I find using a mouse very difficult even for basic things as it is so imprecise and makes even selecting things or moving around the screen slow and awkward (my experience.) I also happen to have a keyboard with a scroll wheel, which is very handy as it is the main thing I still need on a mouse.
There are times that trying to navigate a 3D screen goes wonky using a pen/tablet and I have to go back to the mouse. I'm guessing there might be other times people would run into issues like this but I haven't yet. Main thing being, don't throw out your mouse.
The new tablets even have finger navigation which I originally eschewed as something I didn't need. With the new interfaces though it is becoming more attractive as one can theoretically use finger motions for quick stuff/gestures, and pen for precision. (Finger painting anyone?) ;)
Pretty much 90% of what I've made (image-wise) is slapped together in Photoshop, But then again I hardly ever render anything for the sake of art (unless some guy named Art is paying me to)... even then I still use post work.
Some of my images have used Poser, DS, Kerkythea, Bryce, Illustrator, Filter Forge and Photoshop... and they still look like a goat put them together. But putting aside my cheesy "back of the magazine" advertisement style, I think that sort of thing is fine... Sure it requires a lot of skill to get a perfect render, but it also takes a lot of skill to put together a perfect image too...(neither of which I've ever done)...
Do you care if someone fixes your toaster with a toolbox full of separate tools or with one Leatherman multi-tool? As long as the results are the same and the toaster functions properly, I believe that is all that matters.
Same with the post work debate... does it really matter if the piece is produced as a perfectly set up render, or if it is put together in postwork... the quality, power and vision of final the product is all that really matters. How someone feels about an image should not really be dictated by how it was produced (unless maybe you used ground up kittens in the process... I could see some legitimate ethical concerns there). One should judge the image on it visual merits... I could understand in a contest, which is more or less meant to showcase the virtues and capabilities of a software package... you want it to be purely done in by that software and that makes sense, otherwise it muddies up the perception of what that software can do. But outside of that, you should like or dislike an image on what it makes you feel... I have produced images using both a single render and through post work which both have made big burly men (almost like vikings or barbarians) cry big huge tears, solely on how powerfully terrible and sucky those images were.
Really... in the end that is all that matters... being able to make people cry and ruin their whole day... and maybe even give them nightmares... thats good too.
What was that about a toaster?? ;-P
I still prefer a trackball for menus, but that is because I'm sloppy with a pen. For years I wouldn't even try to use the pen in menus because I was so bad at them. But I never noticed a learning curve with the tablet other than that.
I gave my old wacom to my niece a few years ago and she didn't need any explaination on how it works. But she has experience drawing. She was fine using it in menus, made me jealous. Maybe there isn't a learning curve if you have a small amount of traditional painting/illustrating experience? (or just control of your hand, which I have little apparently)
I can see learning how to use a wacom in menus taking some time though, it took me years to get used to it.
To be clear, my problem with wacom tablets has been purely technical. I broke one by dropping it, and the other was faulty, and I don't want to risk buying and breaking a third.
My point is more that perhaps those who use wacom tablets are more likely to find postwork, especially painting, fun than those of us who don't use it for whatever reason, and therefore more likely to do postwork.
I've noticed toast or the lack of toast seems to be a very important issue here at times... I was going to say vacuum cleaner, but nobody ever complains about stuff not sucking... so...
Wacom tablets are very nice. I just have a lower-end one and I love it. Some of them come bundled with Adobe Photoshop Elements (or at least they did...not sure if this is still the case) which is great for those on a budget who can't afford the full version of Photoshop.
To be clear, my problem with wacom tablets has been purely technical. I broke one by dropping it, and the other was faulty, and I don't want to risk buying and breaking a third.
My point is more that perhaps those who use wacom tablets are more likely to find postwork, especially painting, fun than those of us who don't use it for whatever reason, and therefore more likely to do postwork.
Of course, there's always Leap Motion. No chance of dropping that ;)
Point taken. There are certainly types of postwork I would not do without a tablet because it would be time consuming. But there are certain tasks I do regardless of whether I have tablet at the computer. Painting is a great example of something I don't do without a tablet.
When I used 3Delight more I always rendered two passes, a base pass with just a white environment light and another pass with strong shadows. I would blend these in photoshop. Reason I always did this is because it was much faster and less risky than having all the lights in DS at once. tweaking a dozen lights a time in DS wasn't fun to me.
I think the reason I postwork all the time is because I think about it while setting up the scene. And because I'm familiar with what I can do in post, it's an option that is considered while I'm working.
And from your experience I can understand the concern regarding the hardware. I have only had two in the last 15 years. I had an old Intuos for about 10 years and never had issues with it. That is the one I gave to my niece and it still worked great despite it's age. But intuos are better than what I have now which is a bamboo.
The bamboo is the cheaper cousin that I bet is not likely to last very long. But I did get mine with a warranty just to be safe for a few years. But those years have passed LOL. The new bamboos are as good as the old intous for the most part, at a fraction of the cost. The new intuos are really wicked, but more than I need honestly.
I'm so attached to tablets that I would buy a replacement every year if I had to. I'd live without new content or plugins if I needed. I would love a large one but I've only ever had the medium sized ones. The small ones don't work for me.
From what I've seen, people without a drawing background do well with a small to mid size tablet as they haven't developed the same motor skills and find the smaller ones typically quicker to adapt to. People with previous drawing skills have become accustomed to large sweeping motions that one can't do on a smaller tablet. I have a small one, and that has worked well for me initially, but I will probably move up to a medium size one. I don't see going to a large one as I am comfortable zooming in/out and have learned much of my drawing/painting on a tablet.
If one doesn't do post a lot, they may not realize that touching up images is totally different then painting an image from scratch for the most part. when one is adding shadows, dodges, burns, etc... it is with lower opacities, masks, and other techniques that don't require the same level precision as something like hand painting hair. Even with something like hair, brushes can do a lot of the work. There is a level of learning to using the tablet at all, but after one gets comfortable with that, most if not all post work requires basic artistic hand coordination only. The other point that lars indicated but didn't expound upon is that things like adjusting hue, saturation, and even lighting in many cases require no hand coordination skills, nor do stamping brushes on an area.
Photoshop brushes can be very confusing to people because they are often 'not' brushes actually in the traditional sense but rather stencils or stamps.
Finally, the spot healing brush can be your best friend in correcting small areas and once one understands it, it takes no time at all to use.
Creating diffuse texture maps and some post work share skills. Stonemason has an excellent texture painting tutorial which uses many of the same skills as post, I don't have the link atm, but if he happens to see this he might post it :)
I get all that. What I don't get is how postwork is "fun." Fussing with brushes, working in shadows with burns, adjusting intensity layers, cloning out poke-through... I don't find that fun. I don't necessarily find it tedious, but it's not something I look forward to either, and if I can avoid it, I do.
(and I'm seriously confused at how "I broke a tablet when I dropped it, and the other had a flaky bluetooth connection" translates to "I have problems learning how to use a tablet" You're the second person to make that leap.)
I don't either! I love playing with stuff in 3D Space... that's where I want to be... it's probably why I suck as a render-artist :)
No, you somehow thought the post was directed specifically at you rather then the general statement that it was made as. I'm not sure why. I had in fact assumed you did know how to use a tablet since you owned two and quit using them due to them breaking rather then any mention of them being difficult to use.
I think I'd find it more fun if I had more confidence in my postwork abilities. Maybe in time. :)
I can she how postwork isn't fun for everyone, just like I don't find painting with oils fun. Who wants to get messy? But I can see the apeal for others.
BTW if you think my earlier post was suggesting that you couldn't learn how to use a tablet I wasn't. I was replying to another posters comment about the learning curve. Valid points were made and I agree there are things that can be learned...I just forgot about some areas. But my comments about learning tablets were not targeting your experience.
Well I wanted to take a minute to thank everyone who has taken the time to participate in this discussion. I for one got a lot out of it and hope everyone else did also. Not shutting the discussion down of course, just putting that out there before everyone wanders off :)
For me, I use a render like it's any other stock photo.
I do multiple render passes and a lot of postwork in layers. I mostly use PSP, because that's what I first started using and I'm most comfortable with it, but have PS too. I use color and contrast tools, filters, scripts and action, brushes, PSD/PNG elements etc. But I also couldn't do without the Warp Brush/Mesh Warp Tool in PSP (the equivalent in PS is Liquify.)
Since 3D people aren't real, they don't bend like real people and their clothing doesn't always act like real people clothing.The Warp Tool helps me correct odd joint bends as well as clothing that's distorted by movement. I also use the Warp Tool on clothing to add a look of creases, folds, or movement (though I'm still not very good at it.) At a small size, I use the Warp Brush to push in the mortar of brick and stone walls so the walls aren't perfectly straight. If I don't want my grass plane to be perfectly straight either, I can use the Mesh Warp to give it subtle dips and rises.
The Push, Smudge, Light/Dark Up/Down, and Saturation Up/Down brushes get used a lot too.
One of these days I'll invest in a tablet. I think some of my regular tasks -- like separating out one element of a stock photo from its background -- would be a lot less tedious if I had one.
My latest toy to play with Topaz Lab's Clean filter. I like it for making my toony project look more toony.
The only time I don't like seeing postwork is with store promo images. A couple are fine to show the product's potential, but I prefer the bulk of the promos to be plain and boring, and using white lights so I can get a good idea of what the product actually looks like (I also like simple clay views and views showing material zones, but that's another subject.)
No, you somehow thought the post was directed specifically at you rather then the general statement that it was made as. I'm not sure why. I had in fact assumed you did know how to use a tablet since you owned two and quit using them due to them breaking rather then any mention of them being difficult to use.
My apologies. It was just the order of posts, and I somehow connected the idea of learning curves with using tablets, and not with postwork in general.
I pretty much don't draw, hence 3D as my preferred artistic medium (and why the tablet issue's irrelevant to me, I use a trackball). Although there's a utilitarian postwork routine I go through with many of my renders (which includes some of what you've posted above), that's not the fun part, no more than spending hours pose-twitching in D|S. The fun part is making art, creating something that didn't exist before I put power to pixels, that brings something good to those who see it. The same sense of satisfaction I get from setting up a scene and seeing it render well I also get from applying my effects and layer masks and seeing multiple takes show as a seamless whole.
This is interesting and I never thought of how handy warp could be when used in combination with rendering in layers :)
My apologies. It was just the order of posts, and I somehow connected the idea of learning curves with using tablets, and not with postwork in general.
No problem. I was just trying to put some information out that I thought might be helpful to some based on different things I had seen mentioned in various posts, and more to the point, based on my own past learning curve. Most of it were things I hadn't realized at one point and found very helpful once I had.
I read on a Pink Floyd forum where some fans were upset that the guitar solo to Comfortably Numb was actually pieced together from seven different takes, does it change the fact it's all still David Gilmour playing?
I like images that have postwork (isikol,dreamlight, kannamoonshadow, mavrosh's work come to mind when I think of wonderful use of this technique) but I like the images that are raw renders. As far myself goes postwork is lots of fun if a bit painful because I basically found no such deep profound input on this subject. The way I see learning how to implant postwork in 3d can help you loads if you ever decide to try your hands at drawing be it traditional or digital providing you have some solid ground prior to it.
When I decided to expand my postwork abilities I simply studied more digital art. A lot of times I didn't have a particular task I wanted to learn, I just wanted a bigger pool of knowledge. There are some tutorials on 3D compositing and render passes, but outside of that you can leverage tutorials designed for photographers and digital painters.
I don't read a lot of 3D magazines or sites, but I spend a lot of time on Fantasy art and digital art and photography sites. Doing these tutorials will give you experience with the tools and your imagination will open up as to how to apply to your own projects.
For example I forced myself to digitally paint a dragon following a tutorial. it was a terrible piece of art, but I learned a lot, and I use some of the techniques in postwork. The painting process wasn't that bad actually, the reason I had to force myself is because I KNEW it wasn't going to look as nice as I wanted. We must walk before we run.
Digital photo magazines are also great because they go into a lot tried and true techniques. If the tricks make photos look good, they can also work on 3D renders.
It can change the experience of listening to it, of how it's perceived, depending on how someone's interacting with the piece. Are you just listening to a pretty piece of music? No problem. Are you imagining yourself in Gilmour's place, feeling the strings under your fingers, the studio around you, the magic flowing through you as the music pours out? Are you in awe of the rock-god who pulled this off? Then learning how it actually happened is a bitter blow, and you're gonna be justifiably upset. Are you a musician wondering how Gilmour did it, and you've been beating yourself up a little 'cause you'll never be quite that good? Then this knowledge is a welcome addition to your toolkit, and probably a bit of a relief -- you may admire David all the more for doing what it took to make it work.
There's a sci-fi book out there where this example was made with watching a live performance of a ballet: does it change the experience to learn that the dancers are all non-sentient robots? Doing nothing more than what they're programed to, feeling nothing? Even if you're now admiring the programer's vision and skill, it's still a different experience.
This I believe reflects why I find talking about things like post appropriate in professional forums where people benefit from the explanations and can appreciate it but not in formums/galleries where the target audience is the general consuming public.
First, all it does sometimes is take away some of the magic, for many reasons, thereby lessening the experience, and second.. most don't care. When I try to explain how I did something to someone who isn't into that thing, whatever it might be, I find they discount some of what went into it and don't properly give credit to other areas that really took work. The net result is they feel it took no work at all and therefore holds less value for them. It's kind of like the saying 'A magician never tells his secrets.' He does of course, to other magicians... but to tell it to the audience would only ruin it.
The other thing mentioned by Rawn and some others, letting the work stand on it's own, in the case of the general public I also agree with this for a different reason. Someone once told me they really liked a poem I wrote, that it spoke to them deeply and explained what the poem meant to them. I was young and stupid at the time and immediately explained that it wasn't what the poem meant at all. This of course deeply upset this person. I had taken something away from them. I learned a valuable lesson when they admonished me with "Just because you wrote it doesn't mean you are the only one that gets to decide what it means." I had never considered that before, and never forgot it since.