Does anyone animate on a MSI laptop?
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The laptop the OP is referrring to uses a GTX 1080, and has 32 GB of RAM.
That's ok, but you're pretty much stuck there. You can't expand any further. Maybe can add ram. Definitely can't add another gpu. Small screen, heat issues. But some people need mobility and that is the saving grace of a laptop.
I just assumed that since you seem to feel so strongly about this you would have come to those beliefs based on looking at data. If not, that's fine.
I've been considering getting a laptop for Daz Studio/Iray rendering. One thing that has kept me from dropping the cash is that the thing is less 'future-proof' than a desktop, i.e., it will not be easy, or even possible, to upgrade those great components three years down the line. Am I wrong?
One of my first responses in this thread was that laptops might not be as upgradable as desktops. Hard drive/SSD space is probably limited, RAM space is probably limited (if even upgradable), GPU's and CPU's are probably fixed, cooling is probably fixed, power supply is probably fixed, and so on. So yeah, I think you're right, depending on what you might want to upgrade.
By the way, I recall seeing that there are now external housings for GPU's that use a Displayport/USB-C connector. Not sure how that works, but from what I saw those housings are real expensive and have some issues. But I suppose they're there if someone really needs to upgrade a GPU on a laptop..
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11883/gigabyte-releases-aorus-gtx-1080-gaming-box
That image posed above is what is directly under the bottom cover, that's accessable by removing 5 screws and popping a few clips. No tricks or complicated dissasembly required.
Nice....
Though I suppose for $4,000 USD they should include a butler to fly to your house and clean the vents for you.
If you want to animate don't waste time thinking about a laptop. They can't dissipate the heat and they're not meant for running at full speed 24 hours or more at a time. You can't compare "continuous" gaming to actual continous rendering, because continuous gaming is still not using the GPUs the way rendering is. You take breaks during gaming, you have pauses and lags in gameplay. There are no lags or breaks for your GPUs when you do a long animation rendering session. You will quickly find your GPU throttled due to heat or worse. Anyone who has seriously animated knows this.
I've been rendering animation every single day for the last couple years. Often for 30 hours or more at a time. Even with a specially built rig I already killed one water cooler due to continuous rendering, it didn't even leak, it actually dried out somehow. And thats also with 3 case fans, the GPUs have fans, and I also lower the ambient room temp to 72, remove the front grill and put a small external fan up against the outside of my case to push even more cool air through for my renders that last over 24 hours.
And for that price quote of $5k you could put together a 4 x 1080ti workstation, and also have enough leftover to get a refurbished laptop for surfing the net while your renders are going.
NSFW, I have a couple of questions:
While I said before I agree a laptop is probably not the best choice for 3D, I still don't see why heat damage to the CPU and/or GPU is a factor. Again, fans should kick on, and the system should protect itself before being damaged. LIke I said, the components in a laptop are generally less speed and threads, so you might not match the performance of a desktop, but thats a lot different than concerns over heat damage.
I render and use my laptop 24/7 and do animations occasionally too. I have upgraded the ram to 16 GB and replaced the cooling fan which wore out. It has never shut down because of overheating but I did buy a heat pad, it has two fans in it, as I was getting burn marks on my thighs while using it :) It is Windows 7 so could be eight years old.
Thanks Fishtales. Yeah, when a CPU is operating at 70C (aka, 160F) less than an inch from your skin, it can get real hot. But those are normal temperatures for CPU's and GPU's.
Not with a laptop, no. I did try briefly with a MacMini, lol. That was before I knew I even wanted to do animation. When I realized I wanted to do animation, I spend much time on other forums talking to animators to figure out what to build. I actually started off building a hackintosh, because I was hoping to stay on mac OS back then, but quickly realized the only way was a PC.
The water cooler was a H100iGTX, by the way, luckily they did replace it under warranty, but it took them a month. Scary there was no warning or detectable leakage.
Yes there is a slow creep that occurs in the temp after many hours of rendering, I usually notice the time to render per frame slowly goes up. I don't really notice a hit in performance until 8-9 hours, but it seems to vary, maybe based on how big the scene is? Not sure why. In theory I would agree with you, it seems if it can handle 2-3 hours no problem, why not 10-15? I don't know, I just know what my experience is.
The high end MSI gaming laptops typically have top notch cooling and are quite capable of staying cool under extended hevy loads. My only concern would be the life span of the fans, as they are smaller and need to run at higher speeds to keep the machine cool. You might consider getting replacement fans for the CPU and GPU while they are easy to find (within a year or so of buting the laptop), just in case you need to replace them. The MSI's are also typically quite easy to work on, so RAM upgrades, fan replacement, and even replacing thermal paste should be fairly simple (just a lot of screws to remove and replace).
I've used top quality gaming laptops for 3D work for years, and have never had any problems due to overheating. You just need to be sure you have adequate ventalation for them (i.e. don't put them directly on your lap or on the bed, where ventilation is restricted, and don't leave then in the sunlight or in hot locations). Also, while working under load it will be rather loud, so be prepared for a bit of noise. I don't usually do animations, bau have run my laptops for over 96 hours straight with no issues (in a cool location is best). My current laptop is almost 3 years old now.
The fans on a modern gaming laptop are not much different from blower style desktop video cards. I have never had a gaming laptop GPU or cooling fan go bad.
My current Laptop (Dell Precision M6700 Mobile Workstation) is equiped with a 100w Nvidia Quadro K5000. The core temperature never even hits 75c on very long renders. Heck I'd be more worried more about the Core i7 in the thing as the cooling profile on mine allows that to hit and hold 85c under full load.
Cool. Can you swap out that K5000 for a K5100 or even a M5000?
Hi James,yes at least it shouldn't be a problem.
Hi Drzap,thanks for bringing up valid points.
You're correct in suggesting a proper set up that will last the distance,my only problem is space.
I live and work in a really small set up and have had work clients (beauty industry) trip over cords,pulling my poor old Mac across the room hence going down this path.
I also was dubious about wanting this laptop but have been somewhat reassured by an architectural company using this same laptop,hope it's not for their 'lighter work'
Thanks for the good news..p.s always stalk your advice and I've learnt a lot
Because I have a major space issue/work safety also what are your thoughts on rendering it onto another device?
You mean like outsourcing to a server farm? That will be more expensive, I know there were some threads on this a while back, I don't have any info on it, but I think Ivy or someone had some pricing they posted at one point. If you mean another device in your own home, then I don't understand how that would solve the space issue, then you're back to square one and might as well get a workstation.
By the way. I can empathize about the space issue, once having lived in a 11' x 6' feet "efficency" in Hermosa Beach, CA for $450 a month. It was kind of nightmarish, but I basically spent all my time at work or at the beach surfing, so it was a good time. I eventually had to leave, after nearly getting concussions a couple times while getting out of bed and forgetting the ceiling was a foot over my head.
Of course another option is to setup shop in a storage unit for a couple hundred a month. I know a band that did this, it was pretty awesome. One of the guys even lived there. They would jam at night, had free electricty and didn't have to worry about noise complaints. Again, this was Cali, so weatherwise, its possible to do such things.
Using a render farm can be an excellent solution, but it depends on your budget. It relieves you of the responsibility of hosting your own rendering machine, and the service is quick. There are even some renderfarms that will rent you a machine that you can control from your laptop. It will have 8 gpu's in it and you can operate it just as if it were in your living room. A very handy service.
dunno, I rendered many hours of animation on my crappy Dell inspiron 1525 32bit Vista laptop
where there is a will there is a way
OK not in DAZ studio,
Carrara and Poser7 mostly and I had to work in wireframe
it had no graphics card
it does admittedly suffer badly from being overheated, I have Linux on it now and keep it for emergencies
Ebergerly, first if you are a die hard laptop user more power to you. Nobody, is going to dissuade you to go desktop if you don't want to. If you must have data the people in the forums are correct you should run your own tests. I myself have tried using my gaming laptop not very highend just 16gig of ram and a AMD A10 cpu/gpu and I was just rendering opengl animations and it was cooking my cpu. I have done some more extensive still renders with 3delight and if I did not wait for temps to go down between renders the laptop would shut it self off to keep from killing my processor. Now Iray just killls my cheap laptop, I tried Iray rendering and it grew too hot. I know if it had a nvidia gpu it would work, but too expensive. I am the IT guy for my company and most users there don't heat up the processors on their laptops because most people just surf the web on their laptops and do a little work from home and some causal gaming. Those that do more I generally redo the thermal paste (Artic silver (don't use too much)) on their cpu and gpu and recommend they invest in a good laptop fan from amazon. These two things will keep your gaming laptop from an early grave. Oh there are some good opensource temp monitors that will keep tabs on all the critical components in your system if the laptop or pc has the built in scenors to read. Good luck in your investigations.
Silver Dolphin youre missing my point. Im a die hard desktop user. I have 3 right now. But if someone asks if laptops are capable of continuous rendering I want to give a good answer based on facts, not hype or opinion based on misconceptions. Seems reasonable doesnt it?No... but unofficially, yes.
The Dell MXM cards for the Quadro 3000M, 4000M, 5010M, K3000M, K4000M, K5000M, K3100M, K4100M, K5100M, M300M, M4000M and M5000M are all the same size, shape and use the same heatsink. The only issue is the motherboards do not identify newer generation cards correctly. They will work in your OS with customized drivers that inform the computer that it's not on the naughty list. :P
Yeah, that's what I have to do for my HP-Z1. That little Nvidia info file.
Hi ,
not going to debate laptop vs desktop..
but it is possible to use a laptop for 3D rendering
ALL of my rendering and post effects software is on my Old macbook
Maxon C4D,After Effects Final cut pro Autodesk combustion.
I have 44 minutes of completed,colorgraded post produced footage.
of my animated film "Galactus Rising"
Some scenes taking over 100 hours to render the 1280x720 uncompressed targas
to my server before import to after effects CS for comping of layered passes and adding VFX.
My other laptop is a windows 7 machine where I create all of my character motion with Iclone pro
Daz studio and natural motion's endorphin.
Dont do any heavy rendering on the win 7 machine
beyond the occasional Still in blender cycles or just open GL previs
test renders from DS or iclone Pro.
I am rendering an estimated 11 hour shot at his moment
there will be three more passes from this camera for the
background planet, the panning space backdrop and a separate particle pass all to be comped
together in after effects CS
Fans holding at 6196 RPM and temperature holding at 169 degrees faren.
My advice is get the most powerful desktop you can afford yes..
but dont think that you cannot get
anything rendered on a laptop .. it has not stopped me yet.
Thanks wolf. Yeah, I think it's pretty much a myth that laptops can't be used in continuous rendering, especially considering the responses in this thread.
For some reason people seem to think that its okay to run a continuous render for, say, 2 hours, and temperatures will be reasonable, but if you run it for 10 hours then for some reason the temperatures will magically go thru the roof and shut down your computer. I really don't think that's the case unless there's something else going on (overclocking, cooling system broken or blocked, etc.).
I'm sure for some really low end laptops the cooling might not handle continuously doing graphics and CPU stuff all together or something like that. But generally hardware can operate continuously at its continuous ratings, and low end laptops have low end hardware so that temperature limits aren't generally an issue. Do engineers say "okay, I'll use a 3GHz CPU in this laptop, but I can't really cool it when it's operating flat out, so I'll put some low thermal limits on so nobody can use the 3GHz"? Or use a 65 watt TDP device in a laptop with a cooling system that can only handle 50 watts TDP? I kinda doubt it. And even if they did, you can still do continuous rendering, but maybe it will take longer because it throttles to a slower speed.
And to say that laptops are inferior to desktops is just, well, misguided. Heck, ASUS just came out with a laptop with a quad core i7 CPU (2.8 - 3.8 GHz), 16 GB of RAM, a GTX 1080, and an M.2 SSD. It even has a Thunderbolt 3 connector for connecting stuff like a separate external desktop GPU. I'd hate to hear the complaints if people bought something like that and couldn't use it at its rated numbers because it was thermally limited.
That being said, I doubt I'll ever spend serious cash on a laptop. I much prefer being able to quickly access the internals for testing and upgrades, and much prefer having a full size keyboard and three big monitors. And not have to worry about the trend to cut down on external connectors. I hate that.
With a modern (within the last 3 or so years) laptop, the CPU and GPU have built in "boost" modes. This means that if the laptop gets too close to it's thermal limit, the clock speed will be reduced enough to hold an acceptable temperature for the entire duration of te render job. If the machine has a completely inadequate cooling setup (like some budget bin laptops) this thermal throttling may start happening a couple of minutes into a render and a speed well bellow the rated base clock will be held for the duration.