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Not true. 3Delight has supported PBR internally in the pathtracer module since at least version 11, which came out in 2013. We just never got anything officially updated on the DS end to reflect this.
Only if we talk "vanilla DS/3DL" vs "vanilla DS/Iray".
It does. But you need to do some coding to use these features (again, because DS developers chose to focus their vanilla upgrades on something else).
Mustakettu85, so you're saying 3Delight technically CAN support those features, but practically for D|S users it doesn't because those features were never implemented? So what I said is actually correct?
Yes, I'm still a newbie, but while I'm nowhere proficient, I do know my basics. I've rendered in 3Delight and tweaked things until Iray came along. Nowadays, I am tweaking the 3DL textures into submission for Iray, or the occasional Iray texture into 3DL. So, I do know what I am talking about, even though I by no means am a specialist like Odo3D.
The reason why I bring up the maps is, that you would need a PA's permission if you would want to make a sellable product that uses their maps as a base. You probably will have to adapt the materials, because just "plug and play" in my experience, often doesn't work with Iray textures in 3DL slots. Again, permissions. Also, some PAs might not be comfortable with you making a 3DL set (sellable) from their Iray materials, because it will not match their vision, but perhaps are totally fine if you create your own "vision" using the mesh&UV, and your own texture materials. Because freebies are one thing, products for sale in the shop are a completely diffrent one.
As for the new shaders, yes, I understand perfectly that it's the new thing... but people are demanding that "regular" 3DL settings "right now", are they not? I mean, if all of this was about the new system of 3DL, then why is there the complaint now, instead of waiting for the new technology, and then go and show how great it is, etc?
So, if the point is "3DL as it is now doesn't inspire PAs to use it", then what is the point of asking for them to make the old style 3DL shaders that are, as you put it "ineffective"? I don't understand.
So you want to gather the non-photoreal crowd? And single out the non-photoreal friendly PAs? This is commendable. Wishing you all the best.
A word of warning, though: writing free tutorials isn't a particularly rewarding occupation. I've had a number of them up for years, with very little feedback. And a negligible effect on the community. Of course I am simply not good at aggressive self-promotion at all - you're from a different culture so maybe you will do better. Either way, good luck.
Legally - you can do it, anyway. It's not ethical, this I do agree with. And yet, I've seen sellable products out there that are, for instance, new material settings for DAZ characters. And not the ones by InaneGlory sold here at DAZ, but presets sold at rival stores. I'm not even sure they are for alternative renderers.
You know, I don't understand it either. But look, there are other people here explaining this position. They want "oldschool" CG looks and ease of use, point-and-click. Most of these people are not PAs. PAs like their work to look as "photoreal" as they can muster.
A lot of these people in the "oldschool" crowd are actual artists. Maybe without real-world art degrees, but they know their way around colours, composition etc. It's puzzling to me why they should stick to non-photoreal looks, but then again, even in the world of traditional art, not everyone wants to attain a photorealistic style of painting.
Again, I don't understand why not, but that's just me. I'm fairly sure most people don't understand me either. So no animosity, just respect.
Some things have not been but in the "old days" we had to depend on people like Kettu and wowie who understand the intricacies. Plug ins by PAs were the way to break loose the better features... like Ubersurface 2 Layered Shader by Omnifreaker - https://www.daz3d.com/ubersurface2-layered-shader-for-daz-studio
So some were available if you bought the needed plug in.
wowie made a recent pack of shaders that rivals Iray. https://www.daz3d.com/lumina-materials-library
In the vanilla DS, yes. But you can have it all on your own if you invest some effort. DS provides the tools to do it yourself. For the Renderman-based technology.
What DS does not provide is tools to work with the next generation of 3Delight awesomeness, a new OSL-based pathtracer (really new).
Kevin, we just spoke about US2 with Wowie the other day, wondering how many PAs outside Wowie ever provided any materials that would require this shader. So weird, it's been out there for so long and so little attention.
But then again, I saw some vendors confess on these very forums and on their other social network accounts a couple of years ago max that they did not know how to use the free UberSurface either.
Interesting =) Thanks for this tidbit!
PA's will never know if you do or don't buy their products based on the choices of what they choose to include or exclude.
All the PA really knows is if the return on the set is worth the work they put into it.
If they dont feel it is neccesssary now, they likely never will.
With all due respect, really?
We have a whole thread with numerous individuals telling PAs that we are not buying their products when they don't include 3Delight support. In fact, one of the primary reasons I started the thread was to communicate that to PAs. And the fact that some PAs still provide 3Delight presets means that they are still perceiving demand for it from their customer base. "will never know" seems like a very bizarre blanket observation.
I think the point is that a PA doesn't know whether someone bought a product solely because it includes 3DL shaders, or because it has a nice pair of shoes or they like the way the face reminds them of their ex-girlfriend.
And that is why we are here in this venue attempting to provide that feedback.
You have to realize that every PA knows that comments made on the website never even come close to reflecting the wants or needs of the overall market.
Most of the sales made are from people who never even bother with the forums.
And that's fine. It just seems like the reason they don't provide it now is because their experience has been in the past that they didn't get enough sales when they DID provide 3DL shaders to warrant the effort it took to make them. So why would they listen to a group of people now saying "well, we would have bought your products if they had 3DL shaders"? I guess the question is where was everyone when they were providing 3DL?
Mats are really not the big issue I have with new content being released.
But here are a few things about some of the new content thats has been released that has made me crazy.
1) The product comes just as a pre-load scene & the included props can't be loaded individually so you can't kit bash it with other sets..
2) you have rooms or apartments suites with doors & windows that don't open or the room has no door at all( really how the heck you suppose to get in the room with no doors),
3) clothing with no adjustment options and are dependent the auto-fit to default fit the clothes,
4) Hair props that have no movement morphs they just auto-parent with no morphs .. really on a windy day hair just does not stay in place, so why not add some morphs guys.
Just think how much better a good product could be if it was functional... those are the issues I look at now days not mat and textures, those can be converted.
I can say that I got started early enough with daz to have a huge library of 3dl content already. Iray is easy enough to convert to 3d thanks to Esemwy & timmins.william iray to 3dl script so its not a big deal any more about what the vender creates for mats. " I use what I can and pass on that I can't".
The ones asking for them to be made again WERE buying at that time. When the PAs stopped providing them, those that wanted them stopped buying and new buyers started to buy, so there was no net change in income for those PAs, or so it's been stated.
...Iray shaders often have additional channels that 3DL ones don't as well as don't have channels that translate well to 3DL. This is what makes conversion from Iray to 3DL such a bother compared to the other way around (and the fact Daz already has a default Iray "Uber" set)
In the early days both Daz and Poser has the same set of shader channels. the difference was in the default settings. Therefore conversion was much simpler than it is from Iray as well as the differences between the two usually involved the same channels (for example Poser made use of the ambient channel for all of it's shaders while Daz only did to create a glow effect). Why a more accurate conversion isn't available for Iray to 3DL is what has many here bothered. One would think it should simply be the reverse of applying one of the default Uber Iray shaders to a 3DL surface but apparently for some reason it isn't.
...
...bingo!
...it's called personal expression and interpretation.
Doesn't matter what 'they' say; it's what you need to accomplish your goals.
But what people here seem to be asking for is things usable out of the box - surely if you want to express your own personal interpretation you will want to at least tweak things, wouldn't altering the shaders be part of that, so why would it be so hard to convert from Iray to 3dl.
It's easier to tweak existing presets than it is to use a script to convert from one render engine to another and fix what didn't translate properly or at all.
Personnally I don't really feel there is, if you want your own personnal interpretation you are going to have to put effort and time into things; out of the can mat settings lights etc aren't going to give you that, so I a bit confused when some are asking for out of the box working settings but yet also want to express their individuality.
Will take you up on that. Amazing stuff at renders topic! The second link also looks very promising. I certainly have plenty of questions, and very enthusiastic about 3Delight now!
This discussion, looking at renders done by artistic experts, and my own ham fisted efforts at playing around with 3Delight has helped me determine the primary direction I want to go. For that, I'm posting to thank the OP as well.
best
---Bruce
I’m with Scorpio.
The only times 3dl ‘out of the box’ was better than conversion is when the product shows me something I just didn’t know. At which point I use that information for conversion.
For example, AoA SSS skin. I have no idea what the settings should be and need premade settings to guide me. After that, though... conversion.
The other big case is lights. If I’m not using an emission 3dl set up and want dozens of point lights all over the place, that’s going to be a problem.
(though usually I just do Reflective Radiance and then bam, emission in Iray maps over pretty easily)
It's not alway a problem to convert from Iray to 3DL. I actually have a few Iray only products in my runtime, purchased and freebies. I can convert a chair in 5 minutes. The trouble kicks in if you want an environment set by for instance Stonemason. That will actually take some time, and if the vendor didn't feel it was possible to get a descent look it's likely I as a converter noob will struggle with it. That said, if I really really need just that product for a scene or product I consider getting it. But kitbashing is the other option and I more often go that route.
Well ........ not really true. 3Delight is now equally capable of producing equally realistic results, in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. It's just that most DS users simply do not know enough about 3Delight to get those results themselves.
Truth.