When will DAZ have realistic skins?
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That's just it, it's not about "more light vs less light" it's about type of light, position of light and color of light.
You can take the lighting in a scene and changing only the color of the light change the feel of the scene. The same applies to just changing where the light is coming from.
The same rules apply to 3d rendering as apply to photography (though light doesn't work exactly the same way). If you take a picture of a person from straight in front of them using only a camera mounted flash you'll get a flat washed out photo. Take the same person and properly light them and you get a rich detailed image. The skin texture didn't change and it's about as "baked in" as you can get it. What changed was the artists knowledge of how to get the most out of their medium.
Actually, the issue of more or less light has nothing at all to do with what I mentioned in regard to lighting. You can use minimal light or blast the sun at something with proper specularity, and at something without, and the more or less aspect of the light will make no difference whatsoever.
I know that I personally will never make a skin with heavy baked-in highlights for this medium, because they are in full conflict with other features I use and find considerably more valuable -- like SSS and proper use of various forms of specularity -- that are available in both DAZ Studio and Poser. (Telling me to do this is like telling me to take a horse and buggy to the grocer's rather than a car.)
I do not design for exclusive use in DAZ Studio nor is it remotely likely that I ever will. :) Poser is my personal area of focus and it is as valid as anyone else's choice of focus, here, or anywhere else. I design my work to function in these two applications when selling products here at this time, with each tailored to look good in that application, with that application's unique capabilities.
Telling artists what to do is not necessarily productive, either. :) Asking politely for what you want is often considerably more likely to deliver what you desire, particularly if you don't behave rudely or needlessly insult the people who are trying to actually help you along the way.
Ultimately, however, this is your problem:
More resolution tends to mean it's going to take more time to process, for one. Second, you're going to need to adjust your shading rate to take best advantage of increased image resolution.
You've mentioned that your images don't resemble the promo images in the store, and I would say that's accurate. What you may not know is that promo renders frequently take a considerable amount of time and use high quality render settings. It isn't just a few minutes to output a store quality promo, and never has been.
You are certainly dealing with a render quality setting difference, as mentioned before, that may resolve some of your issues. Considerable detail is lost this way when rendering at low settings. It is even being lost in your texture with the baked highlights. The two renders of an unfinished (I am not at all happy with the skin tone) skin below show the same skin, same material settings, same lights (Lantios Lights 2) -- everything is identical from image to image except for the render settings. The blurry one? That is the default 'best' setting. The most notable loss of detail comes from the change of the shading rate: 'best' is set at 1.0, while the other render is set to 0.010. Yes, it makes that much of a difference in the amount of observable texture detail in your final render. Click on the images to see them at full resolution. Note there are no baked highlights on the skin; the highlighted areas are created by the lighting and material settings and their position would change appropriately if the model was in a different position, or if different lighting was used (which is what happens in the real world).
For further reference, the photographic image included shows what baked highlights are. This is a small portion of a reference photograph of the kind used to create skin textures. Earlier thinking, when we were unable to use advanced materials to make a model better interact with the actual environment in which we have placed them, was to preserve those highlights because the actual light wasn't going to create them at render time, and that the lighting would not interact with the model in such a way as to replicate them at all. That meant they had to be on the texture. It is not that way any more in either DAZ Studio or Poser, and hasn't been for a very long time; this isn't a new development at all.
Baked highlights are especially evident on the forehead of the V5 skin shown in the examples on the first page. Notice how, even as her head position changes, and the light changes, those bright spots are in exactly the same place on her face. They should be changing with her position, and the change of lighting, but they don't. It's a bad thing in still images, and a considerably worse one in animations when you see a big shiny spot moving in ways it shouldn't. That, in a nutshell, is why baked highlights are problematic and undesirable.
Edit: These are DAZ studio 4.6 renders.
surreality -
Thank you for your products. They are top notch, and unique. I have learned from your explanation of baked in highlights in the textures. I have been aware of it in hair products, because they are more obvious to me there. Now if I could wrap my head around 2.2 gamma and discriminate between textures that are at 1.0 and 2.2...
The best way I've found to handle that one, actually? If I have a greyscale, or black and white map, I set it to 1.0. I could be dead wrong, but it seems to tell the system the proper greyscale values on a 0%-100% scale. All others I leave be at 2.2 (or whatever the default it loads with is; I haven't encountered any color maps with anything that's something other than 2.2, but I would imagine it's possible it may happen in the future).
For instance, if I have a specular effect map for makeup, and I only want shine to appear in a specific design, my design will be white on a black map. If the gamma isn't reading white as real white and black as real black, the image isn't going to work properly (with the black telling the software: DO NOT make anything here shiny!) which can be a recipe for unwanted seams. ;)
Can participants in this thread please remember to keep the conversation polite.
Take particular note of bullet point #2 of the DAZ 3D Forum TOS
Do remember that the merits of any particular style in rendered images tends to be subjective rather than objective
The best way I've found to handle that one, actually? If I have a greyscale, or black and white map, I set it to 1.0. I could be dead wrong, but it seems to tell the system the proper greyscale values on a 0%-100% scale. All others I leave be at 2.2 (or whatever the default it loads with is; I haven't encountered any color maps with anything that's something other than 2.2, but I would imagine it's possible it may happen in the future).
For instance, if I have a specular effect map for makeup, and I only want shine to appear in a specific design, my design will be white on a black map. If the gamma isn't reading white as real white and black as real black, the image isn't going to work properly (with the black telling the software: DO NOT make anything here shiny!) which can be a recipe for unwanted seams. ;)I thought that any maps made on a computer and Photographs generally have a gamma of 2.2 no matter if it is a colour or BW map. But I am still learning about this so I could be wrong.
It seems like they do by default, but here's the kicker: if, for instance, you have maps that cover all of your contiguous materials, you're safe. The example of the specular map is a good one; displacement maps can be a good example as well. I know the first time I rendered with gamma correction active, I was baffled as to why I suddenly had a seam appearing around the edges of the face map; this was because I use displacement maps with a base of grey (with a math node to reset the zero point, which would normally be true black natively, with displacements extending outward only) in Poser to create displacement in both directions (in and out).
If you have a color on a greyscale map that is set to your expected zero point -- which, depending on your desired function, may be true black, true white, or 50% grey -- you will want a blank map map in black, white, or grey for some areas you would otherwise have no need to use an image map for, or you will want to set your gamma correction to handle it, in terms of simple solutions if you encounter trouble. (I sometimes do both, just in case.) The way I think of it is this: if you want to use gamma correction with a texture set that predates the common use of gamma correction in texture development, it's a good idea to set B&W or greyscale maps to 1.0 to avoid the most common potential problems you might encounter. It might not resolve the issue, but it's a good first step to try to determine what may need to be adjusted, and may in fact resolve the issue.
I don't want to derail this thread, though, and there are some good threads out there on gamma. I am -far- from being an expert on the subject! There are a number of other approaches to processing/handling gamma that can be be considerably more accurate and adaptable.
Ok cheers...not derailing too, carry one. :- )
Anything done visually is likely to have an effective gamma of 2.2, but a control map (such as an opacity or bump map) will not be eye-balled in that way and so is likely to want a gamma of 1.
Ok OT for a minute sorry, but it is Richard's fault. :- )
In Daz Studio you can't control Gamma for each map only for the whole render so how does that work?
I said NOTHING like that.. I'm happy to pay good money for good photo realistic skins... even if it means I have to go to the competition. I want to see those directly in the DAZ3D community start making skins for DAZ Studio and making the photo realistic. I don't see where any of you would argue against that.
Maybe none of you are capable of making skins that are good enough to be photo-realistic is the problem?
I'm saying what kind of product I want to pay for.
Do remember that the merits of any particular style in rendered images tends to be subjective rather than objective
Sorry but its a topic I'm passionate about and I feel like I'm running up to a brick wall with nothing but excuses as to why something can't be done instead of people looking for how it can be done. I think DAZ3D rocks and I love the new Genesis 2 product so I want to see its full potential realized. I know that people around here are capable of doing great things... sorry but I haven't seen it yet.
You know... it's like walking on eggshells around here to get a simple answer...
"When will DAZ3D have realistic skins?"
When I say realistic, I don't mean stylized or artistic... I mean, photographic realism.
I'll try not to be insulting but I feel like I'm being attacked too.
Keep in mind, it is not an easy answer if your definition of a skin being realistic differs from that of other people and after reading through this thread this appears to be the problem here.
Edit to add: From the technical standpoint with regards to texture maps I agree with surreality. For me personally it is simply painful to deal with e.g. specularity being baked-in and I am glad that these days are actually over for the most part.
I have seen several skins that looks photorealistic for me, I personally is not good enough to make them look exactly like that in my renders, but I am working towards that goal *smiles*
As for genesis 2 and V6.. several of the characters for her so far have looked really really good, and I am sure there will be more out soon enough. She is after all very new, so we can't expect to find a lot of skins just yet in the store, though I'm sure they will come and while some might nto be what I like others certainly will.
I think one thing to keep in mind, is that what one consider photorealistic is not what someone else might consider that. As for skins with blemishes (not sure that's the right spelling *sorry* ) I can totalyl udnerstand that not many skins are made with that, since nto all people want their characters to have less than perfect skin, so that is something that is most often done in postwork, or through LIE I would assume (still need to properly learn LIE as well as to be beter at postwork *grins*)
But as I said, I actually like the Norma and Nyssa skins that has come, and I'm sure that there will be more skins that are in my eyes photorealistic. Eagerly awaiting to see a couple of those we got a sneak peak on a while ago *smiles*
“When will DAZ3D have realistic skins?”
I'll probably get it in the neck for this but meh! I'm past caring about that.
1) When they learn to set out a UV properly and have all parts of the mesh at the same "resolution" across the maps.
2) When texture makers realise that a 4k torso map is low res garbage when you compare it to a 4k face map.
3) When they learn how to make secondary texture maps, I get better bump results out of a half-assed procedural shader, than you will get from their so called bump maps.
4) When DAZ realise that 3Delight's TDL format is a load of crap, and they start making it use the ****ing textures in the formats they come in, instead of using that crappy mip-map system.
What other people keep calling 'baked in', I call detailed. I want to look at my characters skin and see pores and micro-details. Skin is never perfect in real life... it has a story to tell and that is why we collect multiple characters... to tell different stories. When I see human skin, I see pores and different features. To me its not about a definition, its about being honest and not pretending cartoons look real when they don't.
As for genesis 2 and V6.. several of the characters for her so far have looked really really good, and I am sure there will be more out soon enough. She is after all very new, so we can't expect to find a lot of skins just yet in the store, though I'm sure they will come and while some might nto be what I like others certainly will.
I think one thing to keep in mind, is that what one consider photo-realistic is not what someone else might consider that. As for skins with blemishes (not sure that's the right spelling *sorry* ) I can totally understand that not many skins are made with that, since not all people want their characters to have less than perfect skin, so that is something that is most often done in postwork, or through LIE I would assume (still need to properly learn LIE as well as to be better at postwork *grins*)
But as I said, I actually like the Norma and Nyssa skins that has come, and I'm sure that there will be more skins that are in my eyes photo-realistic. Eagerly awaiting to see a couple of those we got a sneak peak on a while ago *smiles*
Norma was the V6 character I used in my previous demonstration photo to compare V5 vs V6. It's nice but boy is it bland and honestly, far from realistic when it comes to any real skin details. If what you want are cartoons that you have to spend hours adding details to it.. stick with the status quo... Me? I say welcome to the revolution.. I want realism out the gate.. no post production, no extra software and I think DAZ3D is the perfect platform!
I spoke to one artist that actually makes realistic characters and they told me that it took them several months to make a single character and I have to tell you, the details were amazing to me, I'll share one of the renders here.
My point is that you shouldn't have to learn other software or waste time in postwork adding details that should already be a part of a realistic looking character.
I see a lot of people making up excuses to tell me why something can't or shouldn't be done but for me, the finished and untouched final product should speak for itself.
So while not everybody considers detailed realism desirable... a lot of us want it and we are willing to pay for it, whether we get it from DAZ3D or the competition. I'm hoping that some of the better artist take up the challenge of making a photo realistic skin for Victoria 6 because I believe it is a better product with great potential.
Do you have anything (or already know) that says what resolution each of the maps are best in, and why most of them are 4k or lower now? I didn't know they could be anything bigger than 4k.
I've only seen either 4k for all, or maybe 4k for the torso and 3k for face/limbs, or ones that go all different resolutions.
To set image gamma in 4.6, click on the image preview icon in Surfaces (the place you click to select or import an image) for any property that has an image map and select Image Editor from the menu. 0 is auto - it will choose 2.2 or 1 depending on circumstances - while a positive value is a specific gamma. Then turn Gamma Correction on in Render Settings.
I'm already able to make photo-realistic characters using V4... I know my business and I don't need anything, especially somebody telling me to learn his obsolete ways because your not willing to look at new potential. Maybe the problem is that your heavily invested into v4 and you don't want to let go of your old technology. I think it is arrogant that you would tell a stranger who you don't know such INSULTING THINGS or that the moderator deleted my first response and not your attack on me... Please stop telling me what I need and listen.
Thanks for the heads up on the hair... I'll have to go purchase that one for my own collection.. I love the style and it doesn't block her eyes... :) <3</div>
I've used several V4 skins on G2 with some fairly extensive bending and no issues. Admittedly I don't allow my characters to bend in ways that aren't realistic so no really extreme bending.
---(edited)
Once again it sounds like you're looking for a drop it in and render solution. I actually think you can get some damn good renders that way now.
(edited condescending part of reply telling me what I 'need' again)
I agree that you can get some 'damn good renders' with what is now available and again... I'm talking about the future looking for improvements and not just the same, tired, flat looking characters. We have a new platform and new capabilities to do even more 'damn good' characters.
From my current understanding, you can't use V4 on Genesis 2 unless its in a certain file format that the majority of older skins are not in.. so I can't use my DMR Kay 4.2 on the Genesis 2... I can only use some of the newer skins in '.duf' format.
The bottom line is that I don't want to look back, I want to look forward to a shiny new toy.. I want characters that are built for the future and I'm willing to pay for them if somebody knows how to make them.
Lighting set-up has a lot to do with if the textures look real or not.
To set image gamma in 4.6, click on the image preview icon in Surfaces (the place you click to select or import an image) for any property that has an image map and select Image Editor from the menu. 0 is auto - it will choose 2.2 or 1 depending on circumstances - while a positive value is a specific gamma. Then turn Gamma Correction on in Render Settings.Last time I promise but I have to thank Richard for that peice of gold. The missing link, now it all makes snese cheers.
As I said, I (as in ME personally) see details in both Norma's skin as well as others. I don't find that skin bland nor do I find it unrealistic, agian this is MY personal impression. So I just see things different than you, no reason to jump up and bite me because of that, and frnakly speaking I do not want cartoon. I am very carefulyl choosing which skin I buy, because of the fact that I do NOT want to make cartoons and such. I at the moment have not bought any specific skin for V6, and while I am interested in Candace I have to wait for the moment. Norma and Nyssa is quite gladly helping me cope until I can buy more skins.
As for realism out the gate, I highly doubt you will be able to get the extremely finedetailed realism it sounds like you crave, I could be wrong of course. Mainly because what you want, might not be what others want, therefor a skin that don't have the exact realism you want might not sell enough to be worth the time it takes to make it. A skin that lack certain imperfections, might sell better. And those imperfections can often be added via either LIE or postwork.
As for pores, there is several skins I've seen that have them. Many also has small imperfections in shapes of small birthmarks and so on, if that what you want for V6, I can only suggest that you wait and give the artists time to create the skins, as I am sure they will do. But I also think it might take a little bit of time before we see a lot of skins for her, as I would assume it takes quite some time and effort for the artists to create a skin that is of a qualtiy that is worth to put into the store.
As for spending hours putting details on the skins, so far I really haven't had to do that.. I do plan to learn how to add scars, wounds and tattos in postwork (or via LIE preferable) but other than that, have had no reason to add any details to make the skin looks good. Am I able to make them as good as in the promo pictures, of course not.. but I am quite new at this and the artists that makes the promo pictures have loads more experiene than me, as well as (I guess) better rendering software.
Again, this is my thoughts about this *shrugs*
I just wanted to say that your picture looked pretty damn good.. He's ugly as sin.. LOL but looks real. I think we can achieve the same results using DAZ3d and the 'reality' plug in for rendering. It's slow but it looks brilliant.
Anyways, thanks for sharing. It's good to see somebody else that appreciates realism and truth in art.
PEACE!
I absolutely agree but without the textures looking real.. the only thing you can do is go with darkness and distance to try and overcome a skin that is bland and featureless.. I know that DAZ3D will do better in the future at making Genesis 2 the true revolution in character design that it can be.. I'm patient. It's going to take some time for realistic characters to come.. I just want to encourage the revolution along.
In time people will be flushing V4 out of there systems to make room for the new and exiting characters that are coming.. I can see them already...
Thanks for your patience with me.
I absolutely agree but without the textures looking real.. the only thing you can do is go with darkness and distance to try and overcome a skin that is bland and featureless.. I know that DAZ3D will do better in the future at making Genesis 2 the true revolution in character design that it can be.. I'm patient. It's going to take some time for realistic characters to come.. I just want to encourage the revolution along.
In time people will be flushing V4 out of there systems to make room for the new and exiting characters that are coming.. I can see them already...
Thanks for your patience with me.
No your fine. I just know from experience that simple changes in lighting and a slight adjustment to spec maps can make a world of difference. I do know that most PA's use real human textures on their characters from various of recourse sites. 3DSK is one of the biggest.
As I said, I (as in ME personally) see details in both Norma's skin as well as others. I don't find that skin bland nor do I find it unrealistic, agian this is MY personal impression. So I just see things different than you, no reason to jump up and bite me because of that, and frnakly speaking I do not want cartoon. I am very carefulyl choosing which skin I buy, because of the fact that I do NOT want to make cartoons and such. I at the moment have not bought any specific skin for V6, and while I am interested in Candace I have to wait for the moment. Norma and Nyssa is quite gladly helping me cope until I can buy more skins.
As for realism out the gate, I highly doubt you will be able to get the extremely finedetailed realism it sounds like you crave, I could be wrong of course. Mainly because what you want, might not be what others want, therefor a skin that don't have the exact realism you want might not sell enough to be worth the time it takes to make it. A skin that lack certain imperfections, might sell better. And those imperfections can often be added via either LIE or postwork.
As for pores, there is several skins I've seen that have them. Many also has small imperfections in shapes of small birthmarks and so on, if that what you want for V6, I can only suggest that you wait and give the artists time to create the skins, as I am sure they will do. But I also think it might take a little bit of time before we see a lot of skins for her, as I would assume it takes quite some time and effort for the artists to create a skin that is of a qualtiy that is worth to put into the store.
As for spending hours putting details on the skins, so far I really haven't had to do that.. I do plan to learn how to add scars, wounds and tattos in postwork (or via LIE preferable) but other than that, have had no reason to add any details to make the skin looks good. Am I able to make them as good as in the promo pictures, of course not.. but I am quite new at this and the artists that makes the promo pictures have loads more experiene than me, as well as (I guess) better rendering software.
Again, this is my thoughts about this *shrugs*
Great thoughts and I apologize if I came off wrong. I have all the V6 characters already... either by my company or direct purchase and I personally bought Candace already because I liked the promo renders.. it's pretty good. I would recommend you buy her myself. The features on it will enhance future characters.. I like the nail polish, the skin details are average to me because I've already seen much better in V4 skins.
Candace is a major advancement and it is actually the model that inspires me to want to see better ones in Genesis 2. I want to see still better characters and a lot more of them.. ethnicity and all that good stuff.. Go get your hands on Candace. You'll love her.
P.S. the picture is Candace with FW Ethereal lights and rendered with just plain old DAZ3D delight. Pretty good stuff, right? I can't wait to see more :)
Tha'ts ok *smiles* I agree that Candace is a pearl, I am holding off cause I saw a sneak peak of another one that I want to compare her with.. can't buy both at the moment *smiles* So I'm waiting a little, to see which one of them I will buy *grins*
Actually,... I've changed my mind about Candace and must say I WAS WRONG after consider what some people were saying in the thread. After having more of a play with this character as a result of our conversation, I have to suck it up and say that DAZ has a top notch photo realistic character. Thanks to those of you who gave good advice.
I hope to see many more realistic characters like Candace with more figure morphs and ethnic varieties but they are clearly off to a great start.
So, now I'm wondering when DAZ will have more and how long till we have Genesis 2 male. Where did you see that 'sneak peak'?
Greetings,
I've mostly been ignoring this because it comes off as a concern troll, although the most recent post that included this line helps dispel that. Still, I have to agree with this. I'm a little sad that they didn't include any ethnicity 'out of the box' with V6. Stephanie and Michael 5's pro packs included something beyond the basic, so I had hopes. V5 hadn't either, though, so it's not unusual.
I understand that it takes time, though, and I'm okay waiting, and picking up what I haven't yet in that area for G1. But it'll be nice to have options.
-- Morgan