When will DAZ have realistic skins?
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I had to really look hard at that image to notice it was even a 3D artwork. That is by far the second-most amazing, most realistic render I've seen to date, though no where could I find what software he used for it. As for which one gets first place, it's actually a child's portrait. which was rendered in 3DS Max using reference photos. Not using any Daz figures or textures though, so it doesn't really count here.
That 'Lady in Red' image is the sort of realism I aspire to. It's almost faultless.
On his profile he mentions using DAZ Studio and under the portrait it reads Luxrender. So I guess DAZ Studio - Reality - Lux.
On his profile he mentions using DAZ Studio and under the portrait it reads Luxrender. So I guess DAZ Studio - Reality - Lux.
Or Luxus, of course.
No, he's a Reality 2.5 user, that's in the credits under those renders he's made using Lux.
I had to really look hard at that image to notice it was even a 3D artwork. That is by far the second-most amazing, most realistic render I've seen to date, though no where could I find what software he used for it. As for which one gets first place, it's actually a child's portrait. which was rendered in 3DS Max using reference photos. Not using any Daz figures or textures though, so it doesn't really count here.
That 'Lady in Red' image is the sort of realism I aspire to. It's almost faultless.
That child picture I can actually tell is 3D. It has this powdery look to the face that gives it away, you see it slightly in Poser SSS renders also. The parts that are slightly out of focus in that look the most realistic, imo. The ears, neck, back of the hair.
You know what I do... start taking lights out at random and change the color on another or add a gel. Have fun and explore.
Remember something friend... It's the journey we take together... not the destination that matters. Thanks for sharing... look forward to seeing more brilliance and not just test renders.
All the renders you've posted are very dark, and I can barely see the face on this last one. Are they supposed to be that dark or are they much lighter on your computer?
You know what I do... start taking lights out at random and change the color on another or add a gel. Have fun and explore.
Remember something friend... It's the journey we take together... not the destination that matters. Thanks for sharing... look forward to seeing more brilliance and not just test renders.
I've been very disappointed by the number of poor quality and cartoon looking skins DAZ3D has been providing for the Genesis 2f product line.
Everything else about Genesis 2f is brilliant except skin textures. I mean, the character shaping is nothing short of a revolution in character design... I don't have to rely on anybody else to make a good morph anymore.. but as I've been trying to patiently explain to people to little and no end, all of the characters being sold on DAZ3D need to improve drastically so that they look REAL.
Now a lot of people seem to get up in arms and think that just because I'm saying the characters looks like a cartoon, that I'm insulting the people who made them but here is what I've noticed...
The artist are capable of doing great products but most of them are just banging out rehashed V4 skins for the G2f as if they made new products... Great way to make a buck but what we need are higher standards.
It seems to me that part of the problem around here is that nobody is shaking you guys up. I'm asking people to raise the bar and create character for DAZ3D and not poser... please don't advertise products with POSER renders. If you do then that tells me your not designing your products with DAZ Studio 4.5 in mind. You are going to have to choose and I think DAZ 3d needs to demand more.
It seems to me that what the problem around here is that nobody is dedicated to using DAZ 3D and making that the best product. Everybody want to over complicate what should be simple photo realism.. a picture. If it doesn't look real to begin with, all the shaders and lighting in the world aren't going to make it look real in a finished product.
Raise the bar. I see artist selling much better Genesis skins on competing pages and cartoons on this page. So I know that better products are available but I want to see them here where we can all benefit from it and so far... all I've seen is resistance and endless arguments about what "looks real"... clearly cartoons don't look real so next time one of you artist goes to put up another one of your fake looking characters... take a look in the mirror to remind yourself what 'real' looks like and do better.
Don't get insulted... improve. Photo realism is possible with Genesis.. its easy but we need good skins and more ethnic varieties.
What you have there is about as good as studio gets. Thing is when you see one of those "photo real" renders you need to ask how much is render and how much is shopped ;)
Now I like my reanders as crisp and sharp as I can get them, but I don't go for photo real, realistic is good enough for me. And I don't do post work; usually. I do however work with the textures themselves, so rather then doing post for each render I detail up the skins. Or at least crispen up the skins in a photo editor. But that is just me. I don't mind getting my hands dirty and have the tools to do the job ;)
More over, with good lighting and a good render engine the bump/normal is just as important as the texture, if not more so.
None the less, no amount of Hidef skins can make up for a render engine that isn't capable of producing a photo real render.
True.. I should point out that I consider the Lux Render a part of the program of using DAZ3D but the results are very different from what I've seen and I can do 'photo realistic'... Just thinking out loud.
I do agree with you that realism is 'good enough' ... I don't agree with you about post work... we should have a variety of characters that look real so that we don't have to do post work... The goal of having several good characters to begin with so as to speed up the process of making good art... You know.. If you had dozens of "good enough" textures then you wouldn't worry about making it more 'crisp' in the photo editor... I don't mind getting into post work but it shouldn't be mandatory... but lets face it.... several of the new G2f skins are very poor quality. Nothing put out by DAZ3d so far as character skins makes the investment of hundreds of dollars worth it when people will see no real improvements because artist are simply taking the V4 skins and putting them in G2f format, repackaged tired cartoons that need to be retired because they are obsolete.
I love the new Genesis 2f format.. its just lucky I've figured out how to put good V4 skins on G2f characters... That's a pain to do but I'm working around the fake looking characters I keep seeing on DAZ3d's page.
Here is the deal.. If you have something that look real to begin with, you can afford to loose some of its quality when you change lighting.
I have noticed that people making products for DAZ make great looking men... seems to be a real focus but they keep dropping the ball when it comes to making great looking female skins...
Merged with older thread - there's no need for two threads on the same topic.
Then it's a good job that DAZ Studio has an industry-standard, used for films, render engine in the form of 3Delight.
The skin textures for Genesis 2 Female don't seem to me to be any less realistic than older products by the same artists--possibly a bit more realistic in some cases. Different artists have different styles, just as different customers have different tastes. Some of the skins do have a somewhat stylized or almost cartoony look to me--though that's my opinion and I'm sure not everyone agrees--but the thing is, some people want that look. If there wasn't demand for it, DAZ wouldn't continue selling skins like that. The fact that a character may not fit your definition of "realistic" does not mean that it is poor quality. (Edited to add: while I usually prefer realism myself, some of my favorite skins are not what I would consider photorealistic, but I love them anyway and use them for different projects that don't require photorealism)
Some of the skins, including the default textures of Victoria 6 and Gia, and a few others, do look highly realistic to me. But if you aren't happy with the new skins, Genesis 2 Female is capable of wearing V5 skins, as I'm sure you know, or V4 skins (with the aid of the Victoria 4 for Genesis 2 Female product or a map transfer). There are plenty of options.
At any rate, I don't think the solution is to demand the artists to "raise the bar" (because what you are really saying is "you should make characters that look how I want them to look, instead of continuing to make the sorts of characters that you've had success with in the past"). Something to think about: how many of your favorite V4 or Genesis character artists have already released products for G2F? In time, more artists will embrace the new figure, and a wider range of skin textures will be available.
I'm not trying to say that your arguments have no validity. I understand your point of view and agree with aspects of it: it would be great if there were more photorealistic skin textures for G2F. However, claiming that products are "poor quality" and calling people "tyrants" doesn't seem like the best approach.
@ManStan: I think the 3Delight render engine is capable of more realistic results than most of us can get out of it. Doesn't mean that the render engine or DAZ Studio is flawed, just means that we need to learn more about how to get the best results out of it. Like any skill, it takes work, and I know that I personally have a long way to go.
Below is what I consider my most realistic Genesis 2 render so far. It's V6 with the default Belle skin, with minor surface tweaks. Certainly not 100% photorealistic (I've seen better renders from other people), but then again, this was done as a test and I didn't put much effort into making it look good.
I think its great but again.. it falls flat on skin details. Leonardo da Vinci once said, "Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."...
Maybe the problem is that you've never seen how great your renders can look with truly great skins...
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/the-metropolitan-collection---milan-v4/54193#
Someday... the rest of these guys will up the game and G2f will be realized as the remarkable improvement that it is.. we just need some great skins.
Post edited by mod
Thanks for the feedback. That's pretty much how I feel about that image, too: I'm happy with it overall, but it's a little washed-out. Something to work on the next time I play with V6 (I usually use the Genesis figure).
I don't own any of Danae's characters yet. I do think they look amazing in Poser, and from what I've seen they look very good in DAZ Studio too, but not necessarily better than skins I've bought from DAZ. Among your own renders, I think the Candace ones are just as good as the ones that use Danae skins.
I think its great but again.. it falls flat on skin details. Leonardo da Vinci once said, "Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."...
Maybe the problem is that you've never seen how great your renders can look with truly great skins...
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/the-metropolitan-collection---milan-v4/54193#
Someday... the rest of these guys will up the game and G2f will be realized as the remarkable improvement that it is.. we just need some great skins.
Post edited by mod
wow this one is great!!
Then it's a good job that DAZ Studio has an industry-standard, used for films, render engine in the form of 3Delight.
If it is such an 'industry standard' then where are the motion blur, depth of field and complete geometry support controls that comes with actual industry standard engines?
I know all that stuff is in the Bryce rendering engine... but I haven't seen anything like that in Daz.. I'm sure there are plenty of things hidden in this software that most of us just don't know how to enable it.
Hmm the render has motion blur.. I made a render which used the motion blur in the inbuilt daz render (see attached pic) after a friend told me how too. Depth of field is the Camera, also something I use on most (not all) of my pic (see second attached render)
Can't say anything about geometry support, as I have no idea what it is *smiles* still have a lot to learn about both Studio and 3d in whole. But both Motion blur and Depth of Field is available
Thanks for the feedback. That's pretty much how I feel about that image, too: I'm happy with it overall, but it's a little washed-out. Something to work on the next time I play with V6 (I usually use the Genesis figure).
I don't own any of Danae's characters yet. I do think they look amazing in Poser, and from what I've seen they look very good in DAZ Studio too, but not necessarily better than skins I've bought from DAZ. Among your own renders, I think the Candace ones are just as good as the ones that use Danae skins.
The one thing that is really a pain about characters from other sites.. You have to install them yourself. You place each file in the different categories... Danae's are the old format .. 'png'... so you have to load it, save it as a material file and then merge it into a Gen2f character... so make sure you like the model because you have to make another one if you want to change it.
The benefits are that I get to use the remarkable shaping tools of the Genesis 2 and use a great looking skin because when you put other skins next to it.. you see they just lack the depth of beautiful details that are needed when you show a character.
Get it, install it and then you'll be back here complaining about all the lame cartoons Daz is selling too.
Thanks for sharing
I had to really look hard at that image to notice it was even a 3D artwork. That is by far the second-most amazing, most realistic render I've seen to date, though no where could I find what software he used for it. As for which one gets first place, it's actually a child's portrait. which was rendered in 3DS Max using reference photos. Not using any Daz figures or textures though, so it doesn't really count here.
That 'Lady in Red' image is the sort of realism I aspire to. It's almost faultless.
You know what it is? It's the eyes. They say that "eyes are the windows to the soul" and most skin makers outside of Danae (who made London for V4) forget how important good, realistic eyes are. I've been talking with some of the other artist and most people miss this most crucial point... BUT
I would also point out that Danae told me that she actually uses something like over 200 reference points across the body... Making London took her several months and that's why she has about 6 characters because the artist has high standards and so her high standards have translated into photo-realism at the artist level, my level...
Now, we can all sit around and make excuses and blame lighting and shaders and the artist lack of knowledge when it comes to rendering and we can all point fingers but... I'm not very good and I can make photo-realism using those skins... it's easy to do.
So why is it that when I go to use ALL the other skins available on DAZ, they end up looking like cartoons? Is it my fault?
We all aspire to that level of realism... Yes, cartoons are great but we don't use VICTORIA 6 to make cartoons, you use Aiko or some of the other figures that don't use real human shapes.
The way I see it, too many people on DAZ 3D focus on Poser. You see it all the time where DAZ 3d is advertising new products using poser renders... WHY? Because the skins that are being sold look great in the competitions rendering engine that focuses too much on over complicated ideas like "shaders" instead of just focusing on natural lighting. The focus should be on 3delight and or Lux Renderer within the Daz Studio framework.
When character makers start setting higher standards, the day will come when all the skins being sold now are pushed to the back of the shelf in favor of realism that EVERYBODY craves.
Instead, we get excuses.
I'll agree with you there. The eyes are always a dead giveaway. There are a good many of us who tend to replace a character's eyes with one from a good eye resource made from reference photos.
The render engine in DAZ Studio is 3Delight - http://www.3delight.com/en/index.php - which is used in Hollywood films and animations. You can get the same poor results out of Maya using 3Delight too if you simply dont know what your doing. No matter how great a program or render engine is, if the end user does not know what they are doing then they will get poor results.
The render engine in DAZ Studio is 3Delight - http://www.3delight.com/en/index.php - which is used in Hollywood films and animations. You can get the same poor results out of Maya using 3Delight too if you simply dont know what your doing. No matter how great a program or render engine is, if the end user does not know what they are doing then they will get poor results.
AND if the Materials such as skins are inferior, no matter what the 'end user' does, they will get poor results.
It is a combination.. but I would also point out that with great products, 'end user' don't need to know all the technical details. GREAT products make it easy for the CUSTOMERS.
As much as so many people go on about engines, lighting, shaders and everything else but the original product of the character themselves, you would think that some people are happy with the way things are... which is why I run into so much resistance when I say that everything currently being sold on DAZ 3d outside of the Genesis 2 f model are lessor quality products.
I'd be ashamed to sell some of the characters that are 'new' that some of the vendors are currently hawking.... tired, recycled v4 cartoonish looking things with no chance of ever passing for real... no matter what engine, what lighting or shaders you add to the mix... bad character skins are the problem!
To demonstrate what I mean about ALL the characters currently being released for Genesis 2 f being "bland" I thought I would do a side by side comparison of just a few of the different characters next to Milan. Each one has the exact same lighting and all were rendered in 3delight with Daz Studio 4.6. I have to tell you that when I did the same test in Lux Render it was far more dramatic ... for example, Candace ended up with light blue lips.
You will also note that there are NO ethnic variations so far for Genesis 2... apparently all the people in DAZ land are Caucasian. For that reason alone it should be a call to everybody making characters on DAZ to up the game and do better work.
Unfortunately this thread is simply going in circles, with assertions of inferior products being met with assertions of inferior skills. Since there seems to be no prospect of any reasonable discussion or productive comments on techniques it has been locked.