I want V4 Products not V5 or V6. Planned Obsolescence Has To Stop.
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RCDeschene, do I understand it correctly that at your opinion the female skimpwear can be as impractical and as objectifying as possible (if we speak about how far we can go) but male skimwear has to be somewhat practical even in this case? Because in all your examples male skimpwear has a practical set of pants, while same Elf Witch 'sexy' outfit shows half-cut miniskirt instead of such.
I'll clarify again: my questions aren't about what how practical clothes could become sexually alluring through attitude, pose, shaders and such. Not about how to mix and match things, not about versatility. But how would you design a male skimpwear that does _nothing else_ but sexually objectifying male model in the same way as female skimpwear sexually objectifies female models currently (see today release of Elf Witch as an example of such outfit). For example, for female skimpwhere there are following principle of designs which can be applied one by one or all together
- show breasts and cleavage as much as possible
- highlight butt as much as possible (tight-skin pants, below waist belts, short shorts, etc)
- bare midriff as much as possible
- generally bare the skin as much as possible
- highlight legs as much as possible (stripper boots, miniskirts, tights, stockings)
- highlight female curves as much as possible (tight-fitting clothes, shape-hugging, emphasis on hips, legs and breasts)
- highlight the direction from breasts to crotch
- high heels are preferred
- practically never stands on way of abovementioned design principles.
What would be parallel principles of men skimpwear?
Speedos. But in all seriously, this argument comes up every now and then, and is inherently flawed. You simply cannot compare men and women in terms of objectification. It's a societal thing: women are "designed" by society to be more sexualized.
Think of what makes women's skimpwear "sexy:"
* Clinging clothing
* Deep necklines
* Pretty much anything with breasts
* Exposed stomach
* Legs
Now think of men:
* Muscles
* Shirtless (same with women, but that's more "pornographic")
* Facial / body hair ( lots of opinions on this)
Now, a lot of what I said about women apply to men too, but a lot of what's "sexy" for men also can fall into practical, because of how the male body is treated today.
I'll leave with this image:
Imagine over-sexualized guys playing basketball without their shirts; Some would consider it sexy, or practical, or both. Now imagine over-sexualized women doing the same.
That's why you can't really make male "skimpwear" in the same way you can women's.
Edit: Kattey edited their post when I was writing this, which might make my list seem redundant :X
Not at all. I don't believe most of the stuff I showed you were is all that practical in the slightest. Men don't NEED pants that gives the eyes the idea of their leg muscles and crotch sizes, but it does gives those features the objectifying attention. Men don't wear skirts unless it's barbarian fantasy or historical. IngusSerpantus mentioned that although her Scorpion God didn't sell well, here Godspeed was a significant success.
Not only that, but like most things that seen to work in genderism, there's a bit of a dualism to sexual appeal in fashion. You're right, Elf Witch does have a mini skirt, A LOT of female clothing here has miniskirts, why? Because women's legs are a huge sex gimmick. It makes you move your eyes upward towards the pelvis. For men, it's the opposite. The more chest that tantalizes it's way down to the belt buckle, the better. Like I pointed out in my previous post, look at pieces like Nagase Hiro and the character I present from Rendo.
There is no law embedded in the universe that forbids me to compare such things, therefore I can.
And I'm asking not an abstract society but people here. I understand that personal preferences are widely different, cultural differences, etc, etc, but by getting enough answers I might find a similar pattern in it. Previously I thought that yes, all principles that make female skimpwear into skimpwear can be applied to male skimpwear but somebody in this thread said it isn't true.
And now any serious music lover is going back to vinyl records - and the record companies are producing them again.
Which is the point. Vinyl, as long as its popular, will never disappear, but it ain't about to replace CDs either. In fact digital download will eventually replace all media as the primary format, with CDs, etc., still being around for those who prefer them. The same is true for V4. As long as there is demand, it will continue to be supported, but expecting innovation not to take place or suggesting that things could go back to the old formats is just unrealistic.
So the direction to crotch (from other parts of body, chest and/or legs) seems to be a universal aspect of a sexualization? Because 'from breasts down to belt buckle" is a female skimpwear principle as well.
There is no law embedded in the universe that forbids me to compare such things, therefore I can.
And I'm asking not an abstract society but people here. I understand that personal preferences are widely different, cultural differences, etc, etc, but by getting enough answers I might find a similar pattern in it. Previously I thought that yes, all principles that make female skimpwear into skimpwear can be applied to male skimpwear but somebody in this thread said it isn't true.
Nobody is actually trying to tell you what you can or can't do. It's like comparing apples to oranges. As much as some people want to hide it, women and men are not the same in every way. This is shown by this whole strand of discussion before I (foolishly) jumped in. So now I'm jumping out.
So the direction to crotch (from other parts of body, chest and/or legs) seems to be a universal aspect of a sexualization? Because 'from breasts down to belt buckle" is a female skimpwear principle as well.
It is, I was specifically pointing out the aspect of attention to mini skirts in comparison what does the equivalence for men.
There's a number of factors that work is equivalence, women have the curves, legs, breasts, etc. which is what makes skirts, short tops, boots and the such sell as evident by all the successful stuff we see in the store on a consistent basis. Men have the angles, arms, chests, etc. which can be good for muscle and form-fitting shirts and pants, tops short to no sleeves, wide open chests and abbs, and the such. As I said towards the beginning, D5 and H5's Pro Bundle outfits served this well enough. It's all a matter of how one can exploit those complimentary features to bring out what makes them so appealing.
But Paradigm67 is right, too and is the other point I'm trying to make as well regarding practical clothing. Unfortunately, the circumstance is that since women are the more sexually objectified gender, sometimes what stands out for a guy is simply the way he's wearing his casual suit or t-shirt and jeans. It serves a double purpose in the guy's case, really. Either way, all of them are things are things that DAZ doesn't put out much as they do the other stuff and is part of why it doesn't sell as well. That needs to change if male ware is going to become more successful here.
I want Genesis and Genesis 2 products, not V4. Does my opinion and those who share it carry less weight than yours?
I'm with you. The new figures ate so much better than V4. I opt for better. Rather than planned obsolescence I would call it progress.
Please do not start yet another Poser versus Daz Studio argument.
Accept that some people have one preference and other people have another preference. It is the way of the world.
Poser has dynamic clothing, which is always enough for me to keep both :3
Not sure, but DAZ may have some kind of contractual agreement that prohibits them from developing a dynamic cloth solution other than the OptiTex one. That wouldn't stop a third-party developer, though, and with all the recent plugins for shader-based hair, external render engines, etc., I'm hoping someone will step up to implementing Bullet or another open source physics engine in DS so we can drape anything.
@Kattey, I'm the wrong one to try to answer your question about the rules of male skimpwear for a whole host of reasons, but I'm going to try anyway. ;) Generalizing from what makes female skimpwear work, I think it's a combination of emphasizing the differences between the genders and drawing the eye toward the genitals. So for female garb, emphasizing breasts, narrow waists, wider hips, etc., whereas for guys it would be emphasizing broad shoulders, areas of heavy muscle development (e.g. abs, biceps), narrow hips, etc.
Also, anything that shows what is usually hidden, or better yet, partially shows or teases at showing. "Usually" is the operative word here, so every generation has to try to find some new boundary to push against, whether it's sagging pants, mesh shirts, holes in jeans, or whatever. (In Japan, evidently the nape of a woman's neck is considered highly erotic. Go figure.) What's "usually hidden" on guys is a smaller area than for gals, but I think that's part of what makes some asymmetrical outfits interesting-- e.g. one shoulder is showing, the other fully clothed, so that sets and breaks an expectation at the same time.
I was going to mention Iggy's Godspeed as probably a good example of recent male skimpwear ;) even though it's somewhat historical. It's not like there's any more of the male body showing than would be with a pair of boxers, but the skirt offers the possibility that a "usually hidden" area will be revealed (especially on a guy who flies around), the sandals cover more skin than usual but have gaps, and similarly, the straps across the chest draw attention to the fact that it's mostly bare.
I'm not sure if the fact that the face, which is usually visible, is masked in this outfit is also part of the appeal... possibly. Likely covering that which is usually bare draws attention to that which is shown.
Does that make sense?
LOVE IS THE LAW... LOVE IS THE LAW... *_*
Thank you. I'm actually amazed at the audacity of some of the demands in this thread, including the very title. It's basically saying " *I* use V4 so DAZ needs to make what *I* want".
There's nothing wrong with wanting to stick with a product that you like, whether it be LPs, VHS, or Victoria 4, but the idea that progress needs to grind to a halt because it suits you or a vocal minority is absurd. Do you guys send letters to movie studios complaining that new releases are still not being offered in VHS or laserdisc format?
When I first raised doubts about Genesis 2, other people said to me "No one is stopping you from continuing to use Genesis". Guess what, nothing is stopping you from continuing to use V4 too. But neither of us can legitimately complain if what we choose to use eventually gets left behind - as does everything in time.
I agree, but look at the speeds gen 3 went to gen 4, gen4 to genesis and then genesis to g2F. The G to G2F gap was much quicker, wasn'it it?
I'm going to request we all relax a little and give each other a little room. Those using DS have their own complaints as do those using Poser and we do understand that. The last thing we want is all of you fighting amongst each other to defend choices that have been made on DAZ3D's part.
That said, there has been no choice on DAZ3D's part to make V4 Products Obsolete. I know at times it may feel like that as the store has gone from all V4 products at one time to now having products for multiple figures. So going from all to 1/3 or less feels like you have lost something. Being someone who uses and Devs for Poser, I completely understand that feeling.
For something to be Obsolete though, it would mean no one is developing for it. There are quite a few merchants here on DAZ3D that do still develop for Generation 4 and on other sites as well. If you look across the various sites you will see at the moment that Generation 4 is supported 3 to 1 compared to Genesis. Meaning for every 3 products that release for Gen 4, one is being released for Genesis. As DAZ3D is pretty much the only place supporting Genesis, I can understand the focus here being geared towards Genesis since DAZ3D is the only site really creating much Genesis content.
As for what the value of the Platinum Club is to each person because of this, each person has to decide. For me, no I can't get much clothing for Victoria 4 from the PC which is a bummer but the amount of 1.99 or 2.99 hair (since usually the hair does fit or can fit V4) and especially environments which would cost say 20.00 normally, I find the value for me personally is still very much there. I'm still saving a good deal of money. Am I disappointed that I can't have the latest new outfit as I can't use it. Sure I am. Do I personally feel for me that that was the only value I was getting from the PC Club. Not at all. I still use discounts on PA items and PA clothes for V4. I still buy PC Hair and Props and Environments etc so for me the value is still very much there. Obviously I can't speak for what each person wants or uses the PC for. If you mostly bought clothing and are a Poser User, then possibly the PC has lost a lot of value for you :(
Anyway, I ask you all try to be considerate to each other and not argue about this. Each person has a right to what they are feeling. :)
HUGS!
I'd totally agree with that. I think that's part of what sold it on the sexual scale. Also, Greek culture is always interesting. I know Egyptian culture is big, too, which is why at first it surprised me hear that Scorpion God didn't sell as well. Then I realized something that I've never noticed before while looking at both of them, trying to figure out why... Godspeed isn't nearly as overly exaggerated as Scorpion God. Scorpion God has an awkward headdress and loincloth. Then I looked as Serpent Goddess and saw that, she too, had a relatively simpler design than her male counterpart. So basically, a common pattern that seems to sell well is detail that's reasonably close to the character's being itself and not too distracting from the physique.
I agree, but look at the speeds gen 3 went to gen 4, gen4 to genesis and then genesis to g2F. The G to G2F gap was much quicker, wasn'it it?
Well that would depend on perspective. Yes DAZ3D the company has moved from here to there etc but merchants everywhere and PAs here have not. Some merchants/PAs are still supporting Gen 4, some are still supporting Genesis 1, and some have now moved to Genesis 2, and others are supporting all of the above. So it depends, is moving from one figure to another based on what "DAZ3D does" what the PAs do, or what the customers buy? I would say it is far more affected by what customers are buying and what PAs create (which is also affected by what customers are buying) So really there hasn't been much moving from one to the next as much as there has been an expansion of choice as to what you prefer or can use. :)
Agreed, though I'd probably feel a little better about the whole thing if we had some more info on Genesis 2 Male and their plans for child morphs or products. While I don't really consider Genesis Basic Child to be 'K5', it was at least a nice morph accompaniment. with full support for existing K4 textures. So far the only movement on the K5 front has been Zev0's growing up morph set currently in development.
As much as I'm warming up to the Genesis 2 figure, it still feels like we've only got a third of what we've been expecting. Rushed development never goes well, so I do hope they take their time with it and release it only when they feel it's ready, but it would be really sweet if they'd at least give us some hints as to their future plans for them. I feel that half of the complaints stem from the uneasiness of secrecy surrounding Genesis 2's development.
I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for the dazzling K5 (K6?) and M6 releases soon™.
Agreed, though I'd probably feel a little better about the whole thing if we had some more info on Genesis 2 Male and their plans for child morphs or products. While I don't really consider Genesis Basic Child to be 'K5', it was at least a nice morph accompaniment. with full support for existing K4 textures. So far the only movement on the K5 front has been Zev0's growing up morph set currently in development.
As much as I'm warming up to the Genesis 2 figure, it still feels like we've only got a third of what we've been expecting. Rushed development never goes well, so I do hope they take their time with it and release it only when they feel it's ready, but it would be really sweet if they'd at least give us some hints as to their future plans for them. I feel that half of the complaints stem from the uneasiness of secrecy surrounding Genesis 2's development.
I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for the dazzling K5 (K6?) and M6 releases soon™.
At this point, it would be K6.
Thank you Anne. I hope your call for calm will help as well as the reassurances. I don't know how this thread got so out of hand.
:-(
Well I didn't feel it was real out of hand as much as I know the topic is passionate for everyone on both sides of the debate. Sadly though no one can convince someone else of how they feel and sometimes we all forget that :) No biggie...I just don't wanna see everyone all upset with each other and then next thing you know everyone is hurt and irritated etc because no one is seeming to be listening :( This is a great forum though, always has been....made so by its amazing members so I have no doubt it will calm back down :)
Thank you. I'm actually amazed at the audacity of some of the demands in this thread, including the very title. It's basically saying " *I* use V4 so DAZ needs to make what *I* want".
I didn't start this thread, but I wouldn't call what we're seeing progress.
It seems like a massive step back.
If you used Daz, Poser, or Carrara, you could use Gen 4 without fear or confusion.
Not a day goes by where I don't see people having problems with Genesis.
Not a DAY.
They can't get the clothes to fit. They can't get the feet to pose. They can't animate her. They can't get the textures on her. They can't even FIND her in the runtime. Doesn't sound remotely like progress to me.
I don't see the "audacity" of people stating their preference for a figure that actually WORKS.
The funny thing about this forum is if you don't support the Daz "status quo, you are clearly in the wrong.
I just stuck my head in for a second.
I'll get back to my superior "lack of progress" V4 render I'm working on.
Before Genesis I used to see those posts about the 4th Generation figures just as often. I still answer them regularly -- can't get the morphs to work, can't find V4, clothes don't fit.
Not sure, but DAZ may have some kind of contractual agreement that prohibits them from developing a dynamic cloth solution other than the OptiTex one. That wouldn't stop a third-party developer, though, and with all the recent plugins for shader-based hair, external render engines, etc., I'm hoping someone will step up to implementing Bullet or another open source physics engine in DS so we can drape anything.
@Kattey, I'm the wrong one to try to answer your question about the rules of male skimpwear for a whole host of reasons, but I'm going to try anyway. ;) Generalizing from what makes female skimpwear work, I think it's a combination of emphasizing the differences between the genders and drawing the eye toward the genitals. So for female garb, emphasizing breasts, narrow waists, wider hips, etc., whereas for guys it would be emphasizing broad shoulders, areas of heavy muscle development (e.g. abs, biceps), narrow hips, etc.
Also, anything that shows what is usually hidden, or better yet, partially shows or teases at showing. "Usually" is the operative word here, so every generation has to try to find some new boundary to push against, whether it's sagging pants, mesh shirts, holes in jeans, or whatever. (In Japan, evidently the nape of a woman's neck is considered highly erotic. Go figure.) What's "usually hidden" on guys is a smaller area than for gals, but I think that's part of what makes some asymmetrical outfits interesting-- e.g. one shoulder is showing, the other fully clothed, so that sets and breaks an expectation at the same time.
I was going to mention Iggy's Godspeed as probably a good example of recent male skimpwear ;) even though it's somewhat historical. It's not like there's any more of the male body showing than would be with a pair of boxers, but the skirt offers the possibility that a "usually hidden" area will be revealed (especially on a guy who flies around), the sandals cover more skin than usual but have gaps, and similarly, the straps across the chest draw attention to the fact that it's mostly bare.
I'm not sure if the fact that the face, which is usually visible, is masked in this outfit is also part of the appeal... possibly. Likely covering that which is usually bare draws attention to that which is shown.
Does that make sense?
Yes and thank you very much!
I'll have to take your word for that Mike, because I really can't remember seeing very many of those threads.
Mostly because V4's clothes and Poses are stored the same way Gen3's.
I have no trouble finding Gen3's items or the people in the runtime.
Same with Gen2 & Gen1.
I'll have to take your word for that Mike, because I really can't remember seeing very many of those threads.
Mostly because V4's clothes and Poses are stored the same way Gen3's.
I have no trouble finding Gen3's items or the people in the runtime.
Same with Gen2 & Gen1.
Mike is correct on this...there were/are a lot of questions on Gen 4 and Gen 4 content and getting them to work as well. There still are questions both here and elsewhere often. If you were around all the way back to Gen 1 then yes, for you Gen 4 stuff wouldn't be too much of a leap as you all ready had a basis of understanding of the concept. That said for those new to Gen 4 and even those who used Gen 3, since Gen 4 started the "one base lots of morphs for the others" thing, it was not easy to learn or understand. I have answered somewhere around 1000 questions on how to install Gen 4 etc.
Since Genesis is similar to a degree but taken yet to another step of "new" it was new to pretty much everyone so yes there would be lots of questions. They moved where the content goes, how it functions, added in new features, added in auto fit etc. So lots of room for lots of questions and since it was new to everyone, there were a lot less people that had the answers (especially starting out) That doesn't mean its harder then Gen 4 or easier or better or worse though. Just different with no real comparative technology to step into it from unlike Generation 4. It would make sense to see in some cases more questions on it. For most of us, by Generation 4, the basics were all ready known. With Genesis it changed a lot of what we "knew". Anything using newer technology then what people are used to is going to have a lot of questions and confusion. That doesn't make it a step back though. That is all a matter of opinion which only each person can answer for themselves :O)
on the subject of male skimpwear, this is the sole piece I own, modeled on the male alien in front so maybe this will be helpful.
As you can see, it resembles the female counterpart in most respects. it comes with short shorts which is the same as the pants and club boots, which don't look so great on this type of alien. I think the PA did a good job on this particular texture. I particularly like the way the legs look very nice bell for alien feet.
I won't derail the topic further, but thought you might appreciate this example.
You could make a new thread/topic on this subject and post a link to it in this thread since it looks like others want to discuss it as well :O)
You could make a new thread/topic on this subject and post a link to it in this thread since it looks like others want to discuss it as well :O)
Heh, yeah. The reality is though, I don't have much use for skimpwear for men or women, unless I can make it non-smexy by layering it or something. I prefer less revealing garb. =-)