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This is one of those issues that won't go away, and that people will feel strongly about, but starting a whining thread will achieve nothing except people thinking you're whining.
1) Many items of clothing themselves are figure-hugging, and therefore autofit will simply translate that to the new model.
2) Autofit is not an exact science. Meshes can vary widely in terms of poly and vertex count and you need an algorithm which can deal with a lot of variables at once. What we did end up with, in my opinion, is still extremely accurate. If anything should be worked on it's shoe fittings, since MallenLane demonstrated that it can be done amazingly well with the Victoria 4 morph set for G2F. It was the first time I had ever been genuinely awestruck about an autofit
3) If this were an autofit 'feature' there would be no variable control as there is with these morphs. It would be one fit for all, which still wouldn't please everyone. This way can make it as figure hugging or as loose as you please, and in my opinion that makes it worth the asking price alone.
That is all.
No no no, children whine, adults gripe ;)
Still, not paying for a work around morph for something that is a fairly easy fix in carrara; softbody and a bit of softbody attachment painting. It actually gives you some realistic drape; your mileage may very. But that is a few extra steps and a wait for calculations, that can't be done in studio. I just hate having to spend more time fixing autofits screw ups, then it takes to set up the rest of the scene.
I have a lot of "backs out" issues.
I think that was actually due to the high-quality clone of V4 that MallenLane made. The better the clone shape is, the better the conversions are.
It's true, many of us did pay for DS 4 and/or Autofit, but DAZ doesn't charge for them anymore, which means there's no revenue specifically for developing new features or enhancements for DS, and providing better ways to convert old content isn't going to make DAZ any money selling new content. The autofit results would have to be so fabulous that suddenly people would start buying tons of older content for Genesis to justify the investment DAZ would need to make in a free update to clones, clothing templates, and/or the Autofit plugin itself. A third party developer like SickleYield is more likely to take this on in the hopes that enough customers will be interested to justify the effort required.
On the plus side, the method for making new clones, autofit templates, UV maps, etc. is open (if not well documented), so at least third-party developers can provide new improvements to content conversions....
Ding, ding!
And it would leave less room to resell rehashed content for that matter.
I've pointed this out before, but not being able to move forward with clothes and skins puts me off buying new items. If autofit did a better job I would certainly pay for it so I can move clothes up to the next gen dolly. I spent a fair chunk of change on V4 and and M4 hirez skins and high quality clothes. I thought it was a boon that they made genesis so these would move forward to genesis. And I had no problem buying the morphs for genesis so I could.
This encourages me to buy skins and clothes if these can move up to the next figure. I hate the idea of having to abandon expensive content just to move up to the next gen figure. I spent a fair amount of cash on Xdresser so I could not only move mil 2 and mil 3 clothes up to mil 4 but also to be able to put the mil 4 morphs in them. And if something didn't fit quite right it was easy to fix in carrara; modeling in the assembly room. But this doesn't work; or work for me, with clothes that have been through autofit. So for me autofit needs to work better because I can't fix the issues in carrara.
Greetings,
Honestly, clothing autofits so incredibly well on Genesis 2 Female that I've started buying V4 stuff again.
Skins I'm not as sanguine on, as I don't have any hardcore faves, but I did do a screencast showing how to convert V4 skins using the V4 -> GF2 converter early on, so it's not terribly hard.
-- Morgan
This bares repeating.
Coldrake
The thing about making your bread and butter through content means that people have to be using the system you're selling the content for. Daz needs a huge user base for two reasons. They need to have a lot of people using their software so that there's a large customer base to buy their content. They also need to have a lot of people using their software so that there's a large number of publishers providing content for them to sell.
If they charged money for Daz Studio they would see a dramatic drop in their user base. The software is pretty neat, that's for sure, but it's not good enough to compete with professional packages already on the market. If they charged for the software people would either buy Poser, or for the ones who want to use free software, they'd move to Blender. With the drop in their user base there would be a drop in demand for their content, there would also be a drop in publishers providing content as they'd move on to providing content for Poser and Blender. So it's vital for their business model that the tools to use AND create their content remain free.
But this doesn't mean they can rest on the development end of their business and say "people have no right to complain, we're giving them the tools for free". If Daz Studio continues to lag behind competing systems in terms of development that too will cause them users. Blender is continuing to develop and is making strives at becoming more accessible and user friendly. Poser continues to improve their system because they sell it and have to justify the price of their software.
Personally I think it was folly for Daz to focus its efforts on creating a new mesh in the hopes that this would spurn new content and demand for new content while completely ignoring the technical problems their software faces. Genesis was a more than sufficient figure and would have carried on quite nicely while Daz focused its efforts on improving their software.
It's simple but limited software, and it's long in the tooth. There have been updates since Daz 4, but they've been bug fixes for the most part. Making improvements to the transfer utility and to ALL the tools necessary to create content should be the focus to ensure a larger user base. This is why it boggles my mind when Daz does things like start charging money for things like Hexagon. That just seems like a horrible mistake to me. Hexagon is simple, yes, but it's a horribly limited and terribly buggy piece of software. It was a program that development and support for was abandoned in 2008. Charging people money for a program that is known to be slipshod and buggy and for which support and development has been dropped could have horrible consequences. If people buy software, even if it's inexpensive, it comes with certain expectations of support, development, and functionality. To sell its customers a piece of software that Daz knows fully well is iffy at best of times could seriously damage their reputation and their brand and end up alienating the user base they hope to create.
In short, saying "it's free" is no excuse to ignore development issues with the software and for a business model that relies upon having a growing, thriving user base it could well be a fatal attitude in the long run.
Ever heard of Carrara? It's the other DAZ app. You know, the good one ;)
I have, but it's not all been positive. I think if I was to move on from Daz Studio it would be to Blender.
I have, but it's not all been positive. I think if I was to move on from Daz Studio it would be to Blender.
ZBrush and C4D for me.
It took me a while to learn that. Now I have certain vendors I gravitate to, like DogZ, because of the fit and adjustment morphs provided in those products. Other vendors I've come to avoid, as you mentioned, because of the lack of the morphs.
The problem is, imho, that DAZ seems to favor the ones who do not include the 'extra' morphs. I'm not sure why that is. Maybe because it allows those vendors to produce items at greater speed (and thus has it easier to hit deadlines). Maybe DAZ never tests items beyond the T-Pose. Maybe they just don't care. At least they don't seem to see it, I mean there are quite a few promo pictures in their current Gia release that seem to highlight shocking problems with the products instead of showing their strong sides. How can they use those?
In any way, I think it's a problem and I doubts it's helping the popularity of Genesis 2.
Delete this post. whatever man.
I could see that. But I would say from my experience that MTG is highly collectible ...at least from my experiences with it. Friends have closets full of cards that never see daylight.
One reason I compare to MTG is because of how Wizards release cycle makes 2 year old cards virtually obsolete for standard tournaments. Then they release similar cards with slight change that really do make the old cards weaker.
Being me i gave up on MTG after about a year. I still ton of unfinished decks sitting in the closet LOL.
...I playtested MTG at a SciFi con before it's release. Thought it was "quaint" but too limited system for my taste (was more into P&P RPGs at the time) We all got a starter deck for our troubles which I gave to some youngster that weekend. Considering it was from a local startup company in Seattle (and I had played a number of games by new publishers who went under or got bought out several months afterward) At the time I didn't think a card based game would really catch on in a market dominated by the likes of TSR (which eventually was bought out by WotC), Avalon Hill, Chaosium, and GDW (famous for the original Traveller Sci Fi RPG hand who has since gone out of business).
...yeah, silly me. Could probably pay a couple month's rent for what it is worth today.
OK, where were we now? Oh yeah, talking about paying for fixes to autofit.
Yeah, not happy about that, especially that Daz decided to stop supporting the older figures for Autofit and UV Maps so now they need to be purchased if we want full autofit compatibility.
ZBrush and C4D for me.
...for this one living on "the other side of the tracks", It's Blender, the Daz apps, and Poser Pro2012 (the latter only because I got an insanely good upgrade deal on it).
ZBrush and C4D for me.
...for this one living on "the other side of the tracks", It's Blender, the Daz apps, and Poser Pro2012 (the latter only because I got an insanely good upgrade deal on it).
Well, my ZBrush is like 4 years old this year? At least it feels like it and same, if not more, is for C4D.
Hexagon feels 20 years old! Oh well will deal.
Hexagon feels 20 years old! Oh well will deal.
...tell me about it.
That's what pushed me to Blender. In the five plus years since I purchased Hexagon (yes purchased) I have got very little use out of it as it has yet to see either an update or at the very least, fixes of several nagging bugs and instabilities. I can't get more than ten minutes or so into a project before it freezes up on me (even on the new workstation) and it's smoothing adjustment is pretty useless as it keeps sending up red flags that the application will become unstable and shut down. What good is a modeller if it can't handle smoothing without crashing?
The only way I'd ever be able to afford 3DS is if I won the big lotto jackpot.
...and then with this whole cloud thing Autodesk if moving towards, it still wouldn't be worth the price.
As long as it still does the job that you need and is dependable and stable, Old software is not a bad thing (unless it is buggy as heck).
Main reason I still talk 3DS is cause that's what I've spend the most time on in the 3D world. Sure I'm almost 10 years out of practice, but I spend many years in it, and only spent about 3 in DS.
I'd use whatever is stable, but I've tried so many freeware tools that have issues for one reason or another, I can't get past blenders UI for the life of me. I did the 3 month $299 3DS license last year and loved it again. I could do all I wanted in just a few weeks of refresher. But for the price, argh, I don't need all that.
I just want to make a few bits of clothes, some morphs and that's about all. Seems like I'm asking for too much. If they just updated Hexagon to be reliable, well it would be everything I needed. I at least got it to stop crashing so much most of the time, but it's slow as beans when dealing with a modestly medium poly clothing mesh from V4 days.
When I make new stuff in hexagon I'm glad I have a lot of low poly practice, cause I just keep everything low poly till I go into DS. Still have some issues, but whatever.
What's this got to do with autofit? Well I use hexagon to fix all my autofit issues! This includes the "fixer" issues as well. When you have custom breast shapes those fixers still need some help. To use hexagon I need to remember to switch to monitor three as my primary, and all kinds of stuff like that. If I get to hexagon and realize the mesh has too much detail I have to contemplate should I send to Silo or Sculptris instead.
man oh man, it could be simpler if Hexagon was updated. so much easier.
...exactly, because of the issues I've experienced I usually end up waiting for someone like Sickle Yield or Zev0 to release something that resolves the issue. So it's a tradeoff, spend Zlotys or lose what hair I have left dealing with the frustrations of an unstable buggy application.
Crikey, 399$ for three months? I could buy Vue11 Studio for that.
I have an old Vue, like 6. Not a bad software. doesn't do what I really need though.
The joy of using 3DS again was worth it, I got to scratch a serious itch. And I was focused and re-figured out what I really wanted in a software and want I could live without. and it was $299. Which at the time was less than what I spent at the local pub during the same amount of time....
but that's another story.
Now I'm extra frugal. Last year I blew some cash but now I've got to keep it all in check and such.
...still, at 100$ a month that's twice what my Net access costs me.
Autofit can only do so much, no matter how incredible the clone figure is. There will always be outfits that look figure hugging, and those which do not. Well, guess what? Because these are morph sets they'll work irrespective of whether it's an autofit or not. That skintight latex outfit? Now it can be stretched across the breasts nicely. That swimsuit that inexplicably follows every tiny contour? Now it looks like something you could wear in front of less intimate company.
Honestly, I can sympathise with people who want better autofit clones. Heck, I'd probably sacrifice a goat to Satan if I thought it meant getting old K4 and V4 full dresses to work with Genesis! But at least take out your frustrations on more deserving targets, not brow beating PA's trying to make a living by offering helpful additions. The problems this solves are not directly the result of autofit problems. They can occur in any outfit in any occasion for any morph.
For the love of 3D can we all just agree on that much at least?
Ding, ding!
And it would leave less room to resell rehashed content for that matter.
then it's time to start asking $$$ for the software and leave the $$$ content parts more behind.
some people paid money on the pro version of ds4 paid money for autofit, paid money on plugins that are not updated anymore.
well, autofit need to be updated to work with the new gens.
autofit need to solve the excisting shoe problems.
i would pay for a great working pro character software. that easly integrates with zbrush, modo, max, maya, c4d, blender
the only thing that keeps me here, is the lot of quick pick, cloth dress and ready to animate/render your character.
that you can quickly use in your pipeline.
if i have to do this in other 3d package, i first need to model the mesh, rig, it, model cloth, animate and render.
this is the only reason, why 'm here and playing with the daz/poser content in 3d world.
it can save me time, i only wonder why they don't work it better out for the more experienced hobby user.
and keep it on a dumb and dumber noob level with poor information.
very frusttrated.
...my frustration is not with the PA's, it is with Daz deciding to wash their hands of support for the older figures completely with regards to their new product and thus making this far much more expensive to stay current with.
Yes, I agree, it is good that someone out there is trying to provide solutions to make up for the vacuum Daz has left behind in their desire to push out an an entirely new line of figures. Maybe they (Daz) decided that losing some of us "long timers", (some who have been with this company since the Zygote days), isn't a bad tradeoff in favour of attracting fresh new accounts to the store. After all, as we say in the Shadowrun game world, "that's Biz".
Because V4 was so successful, and there is so much clothing created for her both here and in other stores. The fact her UV is not only used for all Gen4 female characters but several Genesis characters as well, something was needed. Will the same happen for say Hiro3? Kids4? Hard to say, and this is just one reason why I am concerned as well as frustrated with Daz's current marketing strategy.
The PC has been watered down. Sales that were once simple have become convoluted (and often have strings attached like buy "this" to get "that" at a better discount). The loss of vouchers (PC, Gallery, special offers etc.) which not only could be combined with other vouchers (unlike the current coupons), but also stacked with coupons, and sale discounts (as well as being valid for PA items) has seriously reduced purchasing power, especially for those on a tight budget.
Having to purchase more to make something work which needed less in the past is what many of us here are frustrated with. That is on Daz's shoulders as they are the ones calling the marketing shots.
And as for third party solutions to autofit and other Issues, I've saved up for and purchased utilities that make it work better for the original Genesis. I've purchased merchant resource morph kits to get finer control for creating characters and joint utilities for better bending/posing. I just cannot afford to do it all over again, especially not so soon after just getting to a point where I feel I can finally do something with all this.
Is it really that V4 is the most successful, or just that long time poser users either can't or don't wish to use DSON? One brief waltz around competitors forums suggests that the majority still idolizing V4 tend to be Poser users, with the occasional user of Daz Studio 3 or below. I would certainly agree that there's a ton of support for Victoria 4, but then that's largely because she's been around longer than any other figure thus far, and the gap between her and Genesis was far wider than with other releases. (nearly 5 years).
It's no wonder she's attained an almost celebrity status given that she's been around for so long, but does that necessarily make her any less vulnerable to mistakes or failings than Genesis or Genesis 2? I certainly don't think so.
For people on a budget, I can genuinely understand your frustrations. But honestly, most of these arguments aren't relevant to the actual product being sold here. It's not fixing the autofit at all. It's an adjustment that works across the board for all outfits you might put your figures in. For people who aren't investing in Genesis 2 there's nothing to see here, but for those of us who feel that she's worth our money it's a very worthwhile purchase.
I'm trying to keep this as on-topic as possible, because right now it's teetering on turning into another Genesis 2 debate. The short version is that there is still support for Genesis, so if you're not interested in buying for the new generation then you still have options. Let's not have another doom and gloom session, since those really bum me out.
Progress of technology proves over and over again that things we thought impossible are actually possible. How would you know that autofit/transfer utility won't ever allow alternative methods of projection (or whatever it uses to work) or it can't be 'trained' to affect only specific areas in specific cases similar how projection templates do now? Saying that there 'would be no control' discards the notion of progress. Things like autofit and Crossdresser were wishful thinking years ago, and look what we have.
Progress of technology proves over and over again that things we thought impossible are actually possible. How would you know that autofit/transfer utility won't ever allow alternative methods of projection (or whatever it uses to work) or it can't be 'trained' to affect only specific areas in specific cases similar how projection templates do now? Saying that there 'would be no control' discards the notion of progress. Things like autofit and Crossdresser were wishful thinking fifteen years ago, and look what we have. Unless the autofit is drastically changed from the ground up, it won't be any time soon. It would need some visual feedback, which would imply it's doing on-the-fly autofits. Anyone who's used autofit will know that there's a lot of calculations that go on so that the mesh can be refit for purpose.
It would also be almost pointless on, for example, male autofits which generally don't use large breasts. Even if such a system were to exist, morphs would still be better. As I pointed out earlier, this pack works on products which don't require autofits, giving it more scope. There are also adjustments you can make for larger or smaller breasts accordingly which will look a lot tidier than any automatic option.
Still, we're talking about stuff which we don't have. Right now, we have autofit as a one-time conversion tool which uses clone figures to give a 'best guess' fit for clothing, and it does an admirable job for the most part. However, for those of us looking to add a few subtle tweaks, I still maintain that these morphs are worthwhile.
I think the parts I've marked in bold are the conflict here.
The DS/Poser business is about ready-to-use content. The pro market is about building your own content (for the most part), to make a unique product. Making content ready-to-use and easy-to-use is a strategy for the hobby market.
I think there is a middle ground group-- more experienced hobbyists and economy budget pros have needs for content that is a bit more flexible, even if it isn't quite as easy to use-- but I think that market is much smaller. DAZ is going to aim for where they think the money is. And sadly, I don't think most of the money is being spent by people who have been in this hobby for a while and want more advanced content and features. We don't buy every new thing that shows up in the store, because we already have a lot of similar content. I don't think we could keep DAZ in business on our own. DAZ probably needs a constant influx of new people with empty runtimes screaming out to be filled in order to stay in the black. And/or they need to offer a lot of products for sale that existing users will be willing to pay for... like content conversion utilities and third-party tweaks. "There's no such thing as a free lunch."
As for more advanced software that isn't free, it looks to me like DAZ is trying to continue development for Carrara with new features, but I imagine they have to fund that out of Carrara software and Cararra-specific content sales, and that seems to impact the development and release schedule.
Regarding what can and can't be included in AutoFit, I think Herald of Fire's point is not that a feature to add clothing morphs couldn't be included in AutoFit (because that's what SRMS does), but that AutoFit may not be the most user-friendly place for that enhancement, because AutoFit tries to push everything toward a common shape, which isn't always what the user wants or needs.
Although it does occur to me that one could specify an AutoFit source clone that has a spandex morph reversed out of it... (essentially, tell AutoFit that the original clone figure had very exaggerated breasts compared to the target figure, so it would overcompensate and maybe hit a happy medium....)
It would be interesting to see a utility that would edit existing shapes for Genesis and "back out" the Basic Female/Male/Child components, as appropriate, then substitute calls to those shapes in the character shape instead. So for example, take V5, reverse out Basic Female, then layer the differential V5 onto Basic Female in Genesis, then add clothes that don't have specific morphs for V5 but DO have morphs for Basic Female... and see if the fit is better than the same outfit on the original, unmodified V5. I think it would be. A utility like that would make some major changes to installed content, though. You'd probably want it to make an alternate version of any morph package you told it to operate on, rather than modifying the original.