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How can I create HD morphs for DS?

linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,382
edited November 2013 in Daz Studio Discussion

edited and removed by user

Post edited by linvanchene on
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Comments

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,764
    edited December 1969

    I believe this is not possible with the available tools.

  • DAZ_cjonesDAZ_cjones Posts: 637
    edited December 1969

    View port and render subdivision are different but compatible.

    3Delight is what does the subdivision when you render. Studio hands the cage (base resolution) mesh to 3Delight. 3Delight figures out how much to subdivide it according to distance from camera an how much of the final images it will take up. So in 3Delight you are generally seeing what is called the "Limit surface" (once you subdivide enough times the shape of the mesh no longer changes in a perceivable way)

    The view port uses OpenSubdiv. It uniformly divides the number of times you tell it too with the "SubDivision Level" dial. If you have the system for it you can divide in the view port sufficiently to match how 3Delight will render. Generally that level of detail is only needed in the final render or if you are going to using another render like LuxRender or Octane. It can also be used to preview the HD morphs in full detail.

  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,382
    edited November 2013

    edited and removed by user

    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • Swawa3DSwawa3D Posts: 231
    edited December 1969

    I would also like to see detailed documentation on how to create HD morphs, like the HD creature creator morphs for G2F. I'm also curious if this process works for Genesis 1 or not?

    The poor documentation of the advanced features of DAZ Studio takes away a huge amount of value for me. Another example is the creation of geo-grafts. Time is money, many users & PAs have wasted countless hours through trial and error because DAZ does not have complete documentation.

  • DAZ_cjonesDAZ_cjones Posts: 637
    edited October 2013

    The tools for creating HD Morphs for Studio are not currently publicly available.

    Post edited by DAZ_cjones on
  • JabbaJabba Posts: 1,460
    edited December 1969

    Thank you - I was about to ask many similar questions for character creation.

  • Swawa3DSwawa3D Posts: 231
    edited December 1969

    DAZ_cjones said:
    The tools for creating HD Morphs for Studio are not currently publicly available.

    Thanks for letting us know. Also can you tell us if it's possible to make HD morphs genesis 1? Thanks.

  • DAZ_cjonesDAZ_cjones Posts: 637
    edited December 1969

    Swawa3D said:
    DAZ_cjones said:
    The tools for creating HD Morphs for Studio are not currently publicly available.

    Thanks for letting us know. Also can you tell us if it's possible to make HD morphs genesis 1? Thanks.

    HD morphs will work on props and Tri-Ax figures in Studio. The also work on Tri-Ax figures in DSON Importer for Poser.

  • Arcane Von OblivionArcane Von Oblivion Posts: 149
    edited December 1969

    But it will be avalible????

  • Rayman29Rayman29 Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    Looks like no obj morph creation with HD. Sculptris et al won't be compatible.

  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,382
    edited November 2013

    edited and removed by user

    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • KatteyKattey Posts: 2,899
    edited December 1969

    linvanchene said:
    So please give those people some tools to work with and do not hide them away.

    I agree with this idea. The functionality to create HD morphs obviously is here and finalized enough to create commercial packages so why not to give users this functionality?
  • LeanaLeana Posts: 11,839
    edited December 1969

    Kattey said:
    linvanchene said:
    So please give those people some tools to work with and do not hide them away.

    I agree with this idea. The functionality to create HD morphs obviously is here and finalized enough to create commercial packages so why not to give users this functionality?Finalized enough to get used by in-house developpers doesn't always mean ready for general release...
    I know I've developped several "helper tools" at work that work perfectly fine for me or another coder but would require quite a lot of work to be usable by a "regular" user. Like for example developping a GUI ;)
  • Arcane Von OblivionArcane Von Oblivion Posts: 149
    edited December 1969

    I meant "But will it be avalible????"

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,644
    edited July 2014

    Arcane Von Oblivion said:
    I meant "But will it be avalible????"

    The following is my opinion and mine only:

    Don't hold your breath. DAZ has no desire to see the tool used on commercial projects that would show up on other sites (as it would be if offered for sale). I can't say I really disagree with this stance.

    Post edited by SickleYield on
  • Arcane Von OblivionArcane Von Oblivion Posts: 149
    edited December 1969

    SickleYield said:
    Arcane Von Oblivion said:
    I meant "But will it be avalible????"

    The following is my opinion and mine only:

    Don't hold your breath. DAZ has no desire to see the tool used on commercial projects that would show up on other sites (as it would be if offered for sale). I can't say I really disagree with this stance.

    so burger flippers stay burger flippers drawing with mustard and ketchup that is given for free, and the chosen few Picaso's get to use real supplies even though I originally paid for Studio 4 when it came out? You know what, It doesn't matter what I say............. I'm not looking to sell anything anyways...lol. I'm just an artist who wants a paintbrush.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,764
    edited December 1969

    You can still use displacement for higher detail - if it's for your own use you know which UV set you wish to support, which removes one of the drawbacks of displacement.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,644
    edited December 1969

    Yep. The HD tool is not magic, you still have to be able to do a realistic hi-resolution sculpt in order to use it. If you can already do such a sculpt, whether in Zbrush, Blender, or whatever program, you can still get hirez looking items through displacement. Some artists do this voluntarily anyway because Poser can't use the HD morphs and they want to support Poser users.

  • fixmypcmikefixmypcmike Posts: 19,613
    edited December 1969

    SickleYield said:
    Yep. The HD tool is not magic, you still have to be able to do a realistic hi-resolution sculpt in order to use it. If you can already do such a sculpt, whether in Zbrush, Blender, or whatever program, you can still get hirez looking items through displacement. Some artists do this voluntarily anyway because Poser can't use the HD morphs and they want to support Poser users.

    DSON Importer for Poser does support HD morphs.

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,644
    edited December 1969

    fixmypcmike said:
    SickleYield said:
    Yep. The HD tool is not magic, you still have to be able to do a realistic hi-resolution sculpt in order to use it. If you can already do such a sculpt, whether in Zbrush, Blender, or whatever program, you can still get hirez looking items through displacement. Some artists do this voluntarily anyway because Poser can't use the HD morphs and they want to support Poser users.

    DSON Importer for Poser does support HD morphs.

    Oh sorry, I was confused about that. Often wrong, never uncertain. :D

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,764
    edited December 1969

    The main difference is that in Poser you have to set the SubD level to accommodate the morph, which in some cases means adjusting the limits and raising it to 3 - it's a good idea not to do that until ready to render.

  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,382
    edited February 2015

    I started this topic almost a year ago. Because of the latest developments I find it necessary to give it another push.
    If you really want to stay on this course you cannot claim that noone pointed out all the negative consequences.

    DAZ has no desire to see the tool used on commercial projects that would show up on other sites (as it would be if offered for sale.

    DAZ can release the HD morph tool with a licence that grants all users access to the tool for the purpose of creating their own renders.

    DAZ can restrict the license for the HD morph tool in a way that selling HD morphs on other 3D sites is not allowed.

    To put this as obvious as I can:

    I have no interest at all to compete with DAZ PA. All I want is to create renders with high detail that also look good at resolutions of 3840 × 2160 and higher.


    If I feel that a specific asset could benefit from some more detailed morphs I want to be in the position to quickly sculpt in some more detail in Zbrush and send the result back to DAZ Studio without loosing all the subdivisions.     :exclaim:

    - - -

    BUT

    There is another aspect to this:

    Withholding the HD morph tool from PA who mainly sell content for DAZ figures in other stores will in the end also hurt this community.
    Most PA who now sell at DAZ started by selling their products in other stores.
    When the quality of the products was good enough they moved to sell at DAZ.

    If PA of other stores do not have access to the HD morph tool they will very likely not be in the position to improve their skills creating high resolution assets that can be used in DAZ Studio.
    This also means that a lot of PA who would have had the potential to create very highly detailed assets will not use that potential.

    The same is also true for users. Many users first started to create 3D assets in their spare time before turning their hobby into a small profit selling content.
    If users cannot use the hd morph tool for their own projects there will be no users who will develop the skills to create high resolution 3D assets for DAZ Studio.

    To put it different:
    Instead of giving the community the tools they need to keep improving the supply was cut off at the base.
    Not only is the quality of the assets for DAZ figures in other stores not anymore improving but also the quantity and quality of high resolution assets in the DAZ store is not increasing.

    The indirect result of witholding the HD morph tool is that there is no supply of new PA who allready have experience with creating high resolution assets for DAZ Studio. :exclaim:

    - - -

    Update/Edit:
    Left parts that still are relevant.
    Removed parts in favor of a more up to date version I added in my next post written 5 months later.

    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • Arcane Von OblivionArcane Von Oblivion Posts: 149
    edited December 1969

    I will say I agree to your last post linvanchene, but, I think your talking till your blue. As users we don't know Daz's agenda which does suck but its true. I'll just add that this time I will wait till Studio is free again after they upgrade to 5, unless it has more then just HD morphs added to it (I was one of those that bought it the last time, I also won a MM contest and opted for the choice of a free gift, either M5, Supersuit, (something else), or the grab bag. The grab bag is what I picked and that ended up being Junk(literally, junk from someones desk was sent to me). I still like some of what I get but I don't try to buy a lot anymore, I make my own and only use the PC items unless it something that I really need...so.......Yea I agree with you.....Oh anf BTW still no Dynamic Clothes I can make myself that was kinda sorta supposed to be in 4?......I sure hope the offer the HD maker for a price (I would buy it)

  • larsmidnattlarsmidnatt Posts: 4,511
    edited December 1969

    I think we should be able to make our own HD morphs :/ There are too many limitations with the default definition for the genesis figures so it makes it impossible to craft certain details I want. I am still very disappointed in this stance. This is actually one of the issues that drove me away from here.

    I am in yet another scenario where if I had a bit more detail, I could make a great result. Sometimes what we need isn't some prefab sold on the store. Thats the issue.

  • Arcane Von OblivionArcane Von Oblivion Posts: 149
    edited December 1969

    larsmidnatt said:
    I think we should be able to make our own HD morphs :/ There are too many limitations with the default definition for the genesis figures so it makes it impossible to craft certain details I want. I am still very disappointed in this stance. This is actually one of the issues that drove me away from here.

    I am in yet another scenario where if I had a bit more detail, I could make a great result. Sometimes what we need isn't some prefab sold on the store. Thats the issue.


    I agree!
  • linvanchenelinvanchene Posts: 1,382
    edited February 2015

    Update / Edit:

    larsmidnatt said:

    I am in yet another scenario where if I had a bit more detail, I could make a great result. Sometimes what we need isn't some prefab sold on the store. Thats the issue.

    I think you are spot on with that observation.

    DAZ may be under the impression that what they sell in the store is the final product that does not need anymore changes.

    Nevertheless I consider the products in the DAZ store as "parts" that still need some adjustment to create the final product - an image or an animation.

    In order to make those adjustments in a time efficient way access to advanced tools is needed.

    - - -
    - - -

    It is 5 months later. Zbrush 4R7 has now been released so that 64bit workflows are supported

    and

    DAZ Studio users still do not have access to the HD morph tool.

    - - -

    Each time a product in the store is released with the tag HD morphs it is a sad reminder how I am forced to work in an unefficent way.

    The bottomline of this is:
    - Many users supported DAZ by buying DAZ Studio PRO when it was still a paid version offering professional tools.
    - Many users keep supporting DAZ and the artists they feature by buying A LOT more products than they will probably ever use.
    - Many users keep advertising DAZ Studio and DAZ content also in those circles that consider it as a mere tool for hobbyists.

    But what do those users get in return?

    Instead of sharing the tools those customers are waiting for they are kept under wraps.
    Instead of supporting your users you are letting them down when they needed you.

    In the mean time the 3D industry is working on high resolution 3D assets that can be used in movies and games in ULTRA HIGH DEFINITION 3840x2160 resolution.

    I cannnot stress this enough: Outside the DAZ and Poser community people are by now used to high resolution 3D models they see in movies and games.

    The resolution and realism of DAZ figures is not turning anymore heads at this stage.

    - - -

    Just to make this very clear:
    Many envrionments and to some extent also clothing sold in the DAZ store have high resolutions and quality that are still impressive when compared to other 3D assets as well. But only a small group of talented artists did make interesting use of the HD morph tool.

    What used to be the flagship of DAZ - the figures - is stuck with a base resolution level of the Genesis 2 generation.
    This would not matter so much if we could add more detail on higher subdivisions based on our needs.

    But exactly that what we need most we can only achieve with a lot of time unefficient work arounds without access to the HD morph tool.

    - - -

    Yes I know I keep repeating myself. I am frustrated.

    In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition. Related to anger and disappointment, it arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of individual will. The greater the obstruction, and the greater the will, the more the frustration is likely to be. Causes of frustration may be internal or external.

    compare:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustration

    In this case the cause of frustration is external and called "DAZ 3D".

    - - -

    I do not expect DAZ to create miracles with the limited resources they may have at their disposal.

    But at the end of the day I think they should ask themselves:
    Did we do everything we can to put our customers in a position to use the content they purchased in the most efficient way?

    - - -

    I will say I agree to your last post linvanchene, but, I think your talking till your blue. As users we don't know Daz's agenda which does suck but its true.

    That is the part that puzzles me so much. I have no clue based on which assumptions DAZ deceided that not sharing this technology is the proper choice. In all scenarios I can think of it only has negative consequences for the user and with that in the end for DAZ and the whole community.

    - - -

    Companies that sell products intended to just being consumed do not need to share their technology.

    Nevertheless if companies are making a business selling products that are not in their final form but are intended to be modified and used further to create another product are a completly different case.

    In production based industries that provide parts to be further modified all customers need access to all technology and tools to work efficiently with those parts to transform the product into its final stage.

    If some customers have not access to those tools they simply cannot compete in that industry.

    If the customers cannot compete in the industry they will fail to make a profit.
    Without any profit they will not anymore be in the position to keep purchasing parts.

    If alternatives arrive on the market that provide all the necessary tools the customers will most likely stop supporting the outdated solution that did fail to support them properly before.

    - - -

    The way to keep customers loyal is to provide them with all the tools they need so there is no benefit to switch to the compettion if allready a lot of money was invested in the original technology.


    - - -

    Post edited by linvanchene on
  • Arcane Von OblivionArcane Von Oblivion Posts: 149
    edited December 1969

    Well put simply I don't like using Tech I cannot duplicate myself. I was putting far more money in Daz's pocket when I could replicate anything I saw (my own versionsbased off of what was on the (their) market). But then I started seeing the select few having the power to make items I could not. I was even going to market through Daz at one point, but, now I don't market anything. I bought 4 Pro thinking that I would be able to make clothes that were dynamic (Based off of what they said in post back then). The list does go on, but, thing is I don't believe I am as important as the masses here. They have their Artists they want already, doesn't matter what I do. You know what, I don't blame them either. They are about to release version 5 soon and that will most likely have its same set of promises (surprises). The few that bought 4 in the beginning will be forgotten. PTex, Dynamic cloth, Physics, Subdivision editing......Hair......etc. etc....

    I'm happy with Daz Studio 4....'s lol and other programs will upgrade as well.

    I wont be buying Studio 5 unless all they promise is in it first this time, I have other way of doing things using what is on the market elsewhere. So don't send me "Office Supplies" that don't add up to a PRO Character version when I buy everything in march ok? I like you treat me better then that.

    Exclusive HD Morphs, Dynamic Clothes, and other things that the people that want to get into the market cannot. I subdivide after the fact in Poser then import the thing back into Daz .......................I have a Genesis that is always HD and can take the form of anything.(and that's just Genesis 1). What do they think they have that I don't?

  • RKane_1RKane_1 Posts: 3,037
    edited December 1969

    So... any headway on this issue. HD morphs have been out for while.

    Why won't you let us use them? :)

  • Arcane Von OblivionArcane Von Oblivion Posts: 149
    edited May 2015

    yea! its like some RKane or Arcane secret or something!

    Post edited by Arcane Von Oblivion on
  • Male-M3diaMale-M3dia Posts: 3,581
    edited December 1969

    This looks like the official answer for the time being:

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/viewreply/813488/

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