1920s-1940s Firearms
sjaammons
Posts: 185
While there are some options (the historical machine gun pack, a lot of V4/M4 classic handguns on Rendo, ect) there's not a lot of good 20s-40s handguns. I'm talking .38 revolvers, origional colt 1911s, webly revolvers, and proper holsters for them. And while we do have a lot of Tommy Guns, ones actually auto parent to the Gen 8 models would be nice.
It'd be great to see a set of mobster/noir/pulp friendly handguns for Gen 8, if only because I'm tired of reconfiguring old V4/M4 guns and making custom hand poses for all of them. lol
Hell I think its high time a lot of 30s-40s props, clothes, and scenery make a Gen 8 comeback.
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By that I mean something like a colt 1911. There's a colt-styled handgun here but its a modern version (you an tell by the hammer of the gun).
Is there any pack (preferably Gen 8 but I've learned to make do) that has some proper 30-40s noir friendly styled handguns like a colt 1911?
It would probably help to point out the problematic 1911 so that people know not to recommend it, or at least so they can see what the problem with it is in order not to recommend similar ones.
I've certainly seen at least two models with a "ring" style hammer that isn't in keeping with the older designs, but as it's a familiar firearm and artists love anonymising things using by any number of generic names, I'm not sure there aren't others out there.
However, I think you may have to compromise. Artists are generally not exacting firearms afficionados, and as most are happy with that looks close enough (certainly, there's no shortage of films in which you'll find civilian models pretending to be military models, or characters wielding a pistol that wouldn't exist for several years), there's not enough market for models to exist to separate the Ballester-Molinas from the Detonics ScoreMasters. To most, they're all 1911s. (Assuming it's not the typical media, in which case, it's a "Glock").
Still, as an actual suggestion, have you tried hunting around for revolvers? If you can find the right models (or something sufficiently generic to not be recognisable as a modern model), they were still common enough in the era (particularly for police) that they shouldn't be out of place.
As far as I'm aware you're not supposed to 'call out' products on the forum. (at least that's what I thought)
as for revolvers, that's not that big of an issue (assuming you want to put the work in for parenting and making custom hand poses for older products since there's almost NO Gen 8 parented revolvers around) the problem there is that most of the revolvers you find are handcannons or giant magnums, not standard .38 type revolvers you'd see in pulp or noir movies. Only workable ones I could find were from a guy called Panko over on Renderosity.
Would this work? https://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-model-m1911-colt-1412656
or did you need this style: https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/colt-1911-a54e57ea09e24582ad9c0db5bed2a2ca
ETA: A freebie Colt 1911A1: https://poserdazfreebies.miraheze.org/wiki/Small_Arms
Maybe not specific to your needs, but a starting search point...
https://poserdazfreebies.miraheze.org/wiki/Small_Arms
Were you referring to this?
https://www.daz3d.com/mmx-45acp-pistol-with-accessories
I note that it has textures that look more like my mental image of “older” 45 ACP’s. Of course, I’m no expert on the history of hammer shapes...
YES! that first one is exactly it (right down to the correct hammer style) And this is DAZ compatible?
I keep forgetting about this site, thanks for the link to this free stuff!
yeah, its this the one. Don't get me wrong its a great gun (better than the 100th glock most others make whenever a new gun pose pack shows up..) but the round hammer gives it away as too modern. the old school ones had the flat styled hammers.
Not being a moderator, I can't comment conclusively, but personally I wouldn't consider "I've already seen this one, but it's a newer style than I'm looking for" to be particularly disparaging a product.
Not directly. Although the download apparently comes with FBX and OBJ files, Daz's FBX implementation (unless they've improved it in the latest version) cannot load any rigged files properly, and the OBJ will be an unrigged model that cannot be posed (so you'll end up with someone pointing a single action gun without the hammer cocked, which is another regular movie goof that drives me mad). You'd need to do a lot of rigging in Daz itself to get it working.
That said, it looks like the 1911 on the freebies site may indeed be an older model... I'd have to check.
EDIT: Older style hammer at least, but again, frustratingingly unposeable in Daz.
Just to mention it, there's a stubby 0.38 in this weapon pack, but it's an older prop.
https://www.daz3d.com/the-firearm-pack
It includes obj and fbx formats which can be imported into DAZ Studio.
Eh, it's a nice one, but its a very modern style .38, not like older proper noir/gangster/detective style ones with the hammer and all.
I can only confirm that. For anything branded Webley, Mauser, Lebel, MAS I would be a potential buyer, (guns with shoulder holster would be even better)! Generally props from the period 1920s - 1940s would be interesting for me.
Another great thing would be some vignettes for means of transport from the era - Zeppelin passenger compartment, train compartment (including night-train), freighter passenger cabin, airliner passenger room (Fokker, Junkers, Ford Trimot, DC 2 etc.) Dornier seaplane etc. - I personally would not need the whole thing, more of a background/theater set to put the actors in the context of the story I tell.....
The request for WW2 assets seems to come round at least once a year and it sets me wondering what copyright issues a PA might be dealing with in creating WW2 vehicles, aircraft, guns and so on.
I've learned to do some modelling in Hexagon. 90% of it is generally a simple cone-like garment with or without sleeves, for physics simulation of clothing. But I started a WW2 model a few years ago, which I didn't get round to finishing. (Reasons for not finishing - life was too busy and I needed to go through the whole model for UV mapping and texturing before looking into rigging it. I haven't mastered these processes enough for them to be done quickly. Then there is the fact that I only modelled 'by eye' from visual references and I went with overall proportions that aren't an exact scale model of the real thing).
Here is the very old thread, which includes a load of WIP images which you might prefer to skim through without reading the posts. By the time the thread ended, I was embarrassed to be talking so much about my model when others make much less fuss about their own much better work - but it may help with the rest of this post to know what I'm talking about. https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/54998/a-military-vehicle-i-started-work-on-thread-resurrected-june-2017
So, to get back to the problems that a PA might need to deal with.
I mentioned copyright. The references for my model were taken from online images of the real thing and from plastic model kit build sequences online and in magazines. I bought a few magazines because a couple of plastic/resin kits of this vehicle appeared on sale and several magazines reviewed the kits. Question - is it a breach of copyright law to build a 3d model from such references? Model kits of this kind tend to have additional features added on - such as sand bags, ropes/chains and hooks, storage containers, rolled-up blankets and so on. To copy these added-on details would be a breach of copyright to my mind but is the underlying base vehicle from the first half of the last century likely to be protected?
(Incidentally, buying these magazines gave me a ton of references for other models. It's interesting from a modelling point of view that some vehicles use virtually the same parts as others. I suppose in wartime this helped production). Again, copyright is an issue but to my mind, more for some models than others. If a kit-maker produces a model of a particular field-gun and trailer with figures operating it, I think it would be clearly wrong to try to sell a 3d version. It would be hard to argue that, of all the field-guns out there, I just happened to produce the same one in full detail that the model-makers produced. But would a model of a Spitfire or a Stuka perhaps have less of the kit-makers' IP? I'm not adopting a stance here - I'm in the dark about the rights and wrongs of it all.
Another problem I found is that, although I completed practically all the details of the vehicle interior and could fit a figure correctly in the driver's seat so that his face was level with the front hatch and his feet were on the floor, I couldn't envisage anyone being able to make any use of all that detail because there would be no room for a camera to capture anything except extreme close-ups.
The last problem I found with building this sort of thing is that purists might not be satisfied with anything less than total perfection in any historic vehicle - again copyright is an issue.
For the somewhat rambling reasons above I cannot see myself taking this into attempting to become a PA (even though threads like this are tantalising) and I think the some of the above might be true of PAs who have the full skill-set and ability to make WW2 assets.
Lastly, for what it's worth, learning to model mechanical things is feasible for anyone. Cubes, spheres and cylinders scaled, stretched, flattened and positioned can be used to produce a mock-up of most things to begin with. By the time a little wagon or trailer, for example, has been built in this way, then the basic skill of building in 3d space will have been achieved.
If this post isn't relevant to this thread, moderators, please delete.
Apology to the OP - I meant to post in the nearby thread asking for WW2 stuff.
Revolvers are easier to source. A lot of cowboy gear in the store.
i13's Modern Cowgirl Outfit comes with an older-looking revolver that isn't 19th century cowboy. https://www.daz3d.com/i13-modern-cowgirl-outfit-for-the-genesis-3-female-s
Polish's Western guns might work. A lot of nifty retro guns, and a nice derringer is always good to have. https://www.daz3d.com/western-weapon-collection
...here's a Colt Cobra Snubnose .38 in .obj format. 4$
https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/military/gun/game-ready-coltcobra-38-special
Okay I should have mentioned there's plenty to find if you're looking for Western-themed weapons. My specific niche that's not well focused on is 20s/30s/40s styled handguns for like noir or pulp themed settings. Handguns are all modern tactical types, glocks, and such while revolvers are usually massive magnums or cowboy pistols.
its fine, but I'm not sure its copyright. Games get away with showing actual real life fire arms by just changing their brand names and such. Same for here, like a berretta handgun just titled 'tactical handgun' and so on.
I think it just comes down to a lack of interest (from the typical consumers) and therefore lack of interest from the content creators. Why make a niche noir set that may sell decently when you can make the 100th effing fantasy bikini armor for a nice hunk of cash?:/
Merged threads.
This here looks like a Colt 1911 to me: https://www.daz3d.com/da-hand-gun-and-poses-for-genesis-8-female-s ; but I guess it's a modern one.
Yeah it looks perfect except for the hammer. It could work in a pinch if you didn't care about historical accuracy but the original colt 1911 is an iconic gun of the 30s and 40s. Would just enjoy getting one that's at least 80% accurate. (and one like this but for both male and female would be nice, I'm really glad content creators have more or less done away with this one gender only' prop nonsense.
I hate it when products disappear from the store. There used to be something here called "45 Autoloader". It's a nice, poseable classic 1911 that responds very well to retexturing. My only complaint is that the barrel doesn't tilt when the slide is retracted. (I'll just resize it and claim it's a Llama .380!)
It has the classic hammer, also.
I don't even know who the author was, it shows in my product library but that gives precious little information.
Well that's unfortunate. :(
Just make sure that your vehicle is divided in several props that you can hide independantly to fit a camera.
Thanks for the tip, odastein. Perhaps when the days here in the UK turn to Autumn/Winter, I'll be more disposed to resume using Hexagon and may be able to produce something new.
Older vehicles, such as WWII equipment, are pretty much out of copyright. The only way you could get in trouble is if the model you are using had something added that was never on the original, such as a laser rangefinder on a Panzer VI.
More modern things could be problematic, even if you change the name. Glock, for example, has copyrighted the shape of their handguns, and defends it viciously. If you make a commercial 3D handgun that looks like a Glock, no matter what you call it, you're in violation.
As long as the shape isn't copyrighted, you're in the clear.
That's probably why there are errors in some models sold here. If you make and sell a 3D printed model of a Panzer VI ("Tiger" tank) with only four bolts on the gun mantle, DAZ could come after you, since the real Tigers all had six. Four would be convincing evidence of a pirated model.
(Note: I am not a copyright attorney, but I have one on retainer.)
Publishers do the same thing, there are obscure fake entries in the Encyclopedia Britannica, for example, that the publisher uses to catch copycats.
EDIT: Misread first post. Never mind.
Thanks, Petercat, for your advice on copyright.
I'm not so concerned about copyright infringement when creating WW2 vehicles, some of which exist in museums and all of which appear in wartime footage and in numerous photographs. The problem in creating the models is in getting reference material for the mechanical details of engine, suspension and other parts which are normally out of sight. It happens that there is a web-site showing scores of detail photographs of the real-life vehicle I was building but for other models I would probably search for sites showing plastic kit reviews and/or build sequences. At that point I'd be using someone else's research to get the details. I would not be copying and trying to sell their real-life tangible product but using images of their work for reference might be seen by them as an infringement.
For private use I would certainly use any reference I could and would have no problem with showing renders of the result. On the other hand, I wouldn't show renders of any model covered in real-life sponsors' logos - such as would be seen on a Formula1 car - because those sponsors probably wouldn't be pleased to be associated with my amateur efforts. None of us need a hobby to turn into a nightmare, I guess.
Just to add: I didn't mean to derail this thread but perhaps some of the thoughts which I've expressed may contribute to understanding the lack of WW2 items. On the other hand I'm not a PA and can't speak in any way on their behalf.
Thanks, Sjaammons, for your earlier comment and I do see your point and agree that PAs need to do what is best for them and their livelihood
I was going to say, except for the loop on the hammer, and the friction grooves being at an angle instead of straight up and down, it looks exactly like when I was in the army.