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Greetings,
Ah! I'm embarassed, I didn't mean to go in that direction. Thank you for the kind words.
My direction was that I, and I think others, use the tool to visualize scenes. Sometimes stories, sometimes just...well, scenes of a prurient interest. (I should blush here, but I'm doing enough of that as it stands.)
I do think the software lends itself to a paint-by-numbers kind of use. Load an environment, pick a character and hair, pick a pose for both, pick some clothing, a lighting rig that you're comfortable with, do a little adjustment to everything to make it feel cohesive, a few test renders and tweaks, and then one big overnight render (hopefully only one!), followed by a touch of post-work. It's about as paint-by-numbers as you get, short of downloading one of the R2R sets from DAZ, and clicking 'Make Art'. ;) Sure, the more time you spend on pretty much any step, the better the result will be. Not necessarily the more photo-real, but the more 'complete' feeling it will be, at least. I think that the goal should be 'complete' feeling images, not...necessarily photorealistic.
Beyond that, photo-real work demands a level of dedication that very few folks can muster, and as much as the OP believes it's all about textures, and others believe it's all about lighting, I argue that it's about ALL of it, and all the other details. Floating, collision, placement, environment, plausible pose, 'feel', and more and more that I can't even know at my skill level. ('unknown unknowns'?)
I very much appreciate the words of encouragement, but I do still feel a bit bad that I'm contributing to the 'DS/Poser is for pinups' outside world view, mainly because I don't really have the personal time to compose much more involved scenes. The thing is, that with the time that I can dedicate to it, I can do so incredibly much more than I can with a pencil and paper, and despite it not usually being realistic, involving, or thought-provoking, it makes me happy to create.
I guess what I'm saying, to tie it all back to the original thread, is that...I can't fool you. But I'm okay with that.
:)
-- Morgan
"Desensitized". A good word, SY; I think I'll steal it. Most people would be able to understand it.
TMI and alien perspective incoming, read on at your own risk: I guess one of the reasons I get so adamant and defensive about my stuff not being pin-ups, is because I'm asexual (just in case, here's an explanation... Naturally desensitized, in other words). To me, humans are just like any other animals or objects: some are aesthetically pleasing, and that's that. So I'm actually always afraid that I am sending the wrong message with my aesthetic choices. I want to be taken seriously, but most often I'm not; and I have no idea what exactly I am doing wrong (apart from me having poor artistic skills like composition etc due to lack of training).
It's funny: whenever I received any sort of attempted constructive criticism (I think it happened twice during all my years at dA), it was the technical side of 3D. But never have I received any suggestions as to how I could improve from a genuine artistic standpoint. Does it happen like that to everyone?
nevermind I reread the email
There are some people who use 3D only to create porn only to say it's not porn, it's art, cause it's not a real person. On the flip side, I have had a few people tell me that any art produced on a computer is not real art. Actually got into a rather heated argument about it once.
LOL
I'm not getting into the "is 3d art" debate. Someone starts a new thread for that every couple of months.
Porn is not distinct from "art," because art is not determined by subject matter. It's just rarer that they overlap because most of it is not very high in quality. Occasionally I've seen a sex scene or other clearly pornographic material that was beautifully rendered, well-lit, well-composed, and lifelike. It's just not common.
Couldn't agree more or have said it any better - it is all about everything in the scene/render (you've got some great renders to prove it). I don't know how many images I've looked at because the thumb looked awesome, only to see the rest of the image look flat, or to see the figure(s) floating over the background they are supposed to be standing on. I'm quite sure I've been guilty of the same thing, I just hope that my work is improving over time, and that at least a few other people actually enjoy seeing my images.
I have limited time as well, as a result, I spend a lot of time re-learning what I learned a month or two ago. Even with the re-learning, I am still able to make images that I at least like. I have very limited artistic talent, so using a pencil and paper would be my very last option. Technical drawings - not a problem, artistic drawings - big problem!
I'm definitely not trying to fool anyone, which is a good thing! But, thanks to DS, Poser, and Carrara, I'm able to make images that definitely look three dimensional, and enjoy myself while doing it.
Several posts have been removed from this thread - this is not the forum for debates on porn and violence.
Like that last image Snowpheonix, interesting character. As to the use of violence and sex in anything. Everyone is going to react to it differently and it will impact the lives of those people in different ways. In my life, I have a problem son, 23 years old and he still gives me a headache. He has anger and aggression problems. Playing violent games keeps him calm. He acts out in the games instead of in real life. I am not saying that will be the case for everyone, yet it is something to consider. Images or whatnots that slap me in the face are not something I will not enjoy viewing and will avoid it. I agree about the skimp wear. There is so much of it I am actually bored with it. Unless it's for males, there isn't enough skimp wear for males, there isn't enough anything for males, it's mostly for females and hate to burst the vendors bubbles, but I don't swing that way...lol
Edit...Sorry Richard, you posted while I was creating this post. Hope this cleaned up version is okay?
We so agree on the skimpwear.. I'm mean, it's almost like you have the suite, casual, jogger and then a lot of really overpriced items that I wish I had the money to buy when it comes to male clothing. I do love the super suite. It really is tricky because I like outfits that are versatile.
I have to say that I"m really happy with the current set of characters..
The image was Skullduggery by Age of Armor, I also used his advanced light sets which I LOVE> Oh, but I put it on V6 HD body.. translates really well. I'm finding things in my runtime I never see because there are so many items in it... sometimes it takes a few moments just to open the folders and I have a really fast machine.
I wonder how to get that better organized.
http://www.daz3d.com/skulduggery
Thanks for the kind response. (respect)
I hope I don't come off sounding offensive as I really do highly respect all forms of art & creative expression. I appreciate the effort and mastery that goes into making "photo real" renders but they usually don't "fool me" or appeal to me. I often prefer stylized art because it is more flexible and thus can be more expressive and show things like internal states, visions & dreams that can't be reflected through realism. I do try to learn the concepts of creating realistic looking images though so I can intentionally choose which aspects may strengthen my work.
There are several reasons "photo real" renders don't fool me, sometimes it's hard to put your finger on it but they usually just look off. Natural looking lighting, surfaces, poses, etc. are obliviously important factors but what usually gives it away to me most are facial expressions. There are dozens of muscles just in the face alone that all interact to express emotion. I think these are incredibly difficult to fake without digitizing them or spending many years mastering them and then many hours sculpting them all out by hand. I think this is the reason most "photo real" renders only show very neutral looking faces. I would like to see a clearly visible "photo real" rendered close up of someone screaming for their life that looks real. There also are issues with the "uncanny valley" the more real an image looks the more disturbing and off putting it can be.
"Photo real" renders usually do not appeal to me, I usually don't find them interesting or that they bring much new to the table. They usually are images of a normal person, with a plain expression and a simple background with little to no narrative elements. When I'm in the mood for realism I often find photography more interesting to look at because it actually is a capture of something real. I can even just go outside. Now I do find "photo real" images that incorporate fantasy or sci-fi more interesting because they offer something I can't easily find through other channels but I find these less common, probably because they are harder to pull off or maybe artists focused on realism are less interested in those genres?
Even if one is able to fool people into thinking a render is a real photo, what does that accomplish for the viewer? Either they just think they saw a photo or maybe later they are informed that they were fooled and they either feel stupid or are amazed at the artists ability. Personalty I've seen enough amazing accomplishments that I hardly respond to something being great just for the sake of greatness. I care about what is the actual experience, narrative, feeling, content, what does it make me think about, etc. That is more memorable and has more of an impact on my life.
The strange thing is that it's not the most realistic images that are easiest for me to experience or accept as real. If stylized art is expressive, captivating and well composed, I'm more willing to step inside that world than something that looks real but otherwise I don't find captivating. I will feel more attached to animated characters in a well done show than live actors is a poorly written movie.
Recently I saw a video that I find somewhat related to this discussion, it's on the difference between graphics & aesthetics in video games. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oK8UTRgvJU
I also found an interesting poll on dA by the digital-artists group: http://digital-artists.deviantart.com/journal/poll/2737945/
You have got some good points there ;)
One thing I haven't seen specifically addressed about realism is the setting. Placing a person in a situation or location that is implausible or impossible in the real world, no matter how well rendered and postworked is always going to break the sense of realism. When I do those types of scenes, I usually go either for the realistic diorama or painted art looks.
To the best of my knowledge, I have never been fooled by an untouched render of a human from any engine, though I have been at least initially fooled by many a render that have included some level of postwork, and usually a lot. Silhouettes of humans and such where you can't make out detail don't count for the purpose of this argument imho. But just because I don't think I've been fooled doesn't mean that I haven't admired the artistry, dedication, and talent of many of the artists around here who give it a try.
BTW Snowpheonix, I believe your renders are definitely improving! Keep it up.
It depends on the purpose of the render. Photo-real renders would be very useful to me at times when doing book covers. After all, we see it in movies all the time. A photo-real rendering would be useless in a movie like Frozen, but it was the entire basis for the movie Avatar.
I've done several photo-realistic images with Reality/LuxRender. They are all nudes.
Here is the face of a woman sunbathing on her bed. Face shot only,
For extra realism I use magnets to deform hats for example (the hat's rim as shown in this case) and dynamic clothing (bed sheets as shown in this case).
I also wanted to say that even though "photo real" images are not my favorite style, I still can appreciate them. I've seen some amazing renders posted here and I did not mean to take away from them with all the philosophy. I feel that I often learn the most from discussing things with people that think differently.
@ direwrath2000: Thanks.
It depends on the purpose of the render. Photo-real renders would be very useful to me at times when doing book covers. After all, we see it in movies all the time. A photo-real rendering would be useless in a movie like Frozen, but it was the entire basis for the movie Avatar.I guess that is my point. What is the purpose of the specific render? What is being communicated and how will the style effect that. If your using it as a book cover and a realistic 3D render is the best fit you can achieve for that project then that's great. Although in some cases would a photo, illustration, stylized image, schematic or even just text make a more suitable cover? It all depends on the book.
You're not offensive because ideas don't compete, egos do. Every word that you've posted is a excellent evaluation and good critique. Our judgment doesn't define the topic we are expressing an opinion about, only our need to judge. To one man a picture may be a small, unimportant and strange girl, to another it is the 'Mona Lisa', to be treasured. We attach value to things when other people agree.
The idea behind 'realism' is the freedom to be able to actually do it first, nothing more but because 'We can'. The same reason John F. Kennedy wanted to send men to the moon or why people climb mountains and explore the titanic. The idea isn't just to make pictures, its to inspire you.
I mean, if you think about it, the idea is to make something that basically is real and then do exactly what your talking about and make it unreal or surreal. Unless you actually possess the ability to make something unreal look real, you are not free to make 'whatever you want'... You are forced to live within the means of your limitations that are a result of ability that is most likely no fault of our own... Technologies and software constantly change and we need to be always pushing that new frontier in every realm around us because we only needed the one reason.. Because we can.
The goal isn't to be better than anybody else... its for ME to be better than I was yesterday. Everyday is another opportunity to improve myself.
Thanks for sharing your wonderful opinion and have a blessed year. Thank you for helping me understand your point of view.
I love your artwork. I just liked your facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/Swawa3D
Wonderful art. I always find it interesting when pictures look like real plastic models, almost like a new form of claymation which a lot of your work achieves. Absolutely brilliant stuff. The only purpose we need is to express ourselves.
Thanks for sharing.
@snowpheonix
Thanks for the kind words and thoughtful response. I think I understand where you are coming from with the ideas behind realism, even if they might not fully resonate within me. I find that there are many aspects to art and each of them is infinite so I try to learn, experiment and create as much as I can. I study realism but I also study things like comics so I am free to compose the elements I want from each.
Thanks for checking out my work, unfortunately facebook reduces the quality of my images (more so than the other galleries) so they might not look as intended. I've been striving to find a nice balance between fantasy and reality and still experimenting with it. With some of my more stylized works, I originally started out with a more realistic IBL light but removed the image map because it clashed with the overall look.
You have some nice renders, do you have an online gallery?
I would like to just point out one issue I have with your posted work. Your Sig on your renders. I understand Why you do it but most artist use a sig that does not cover 1/4 of the image. To keep your work marked as your own I think a digital watermark would serve you better and then you would not need to cover so much of the image. In your last posted image you do notice that his hand and arm are passing into her don't you? I have already given my view on Photo Real or Not and really do not prefer one over another. I just like art with 3D renders one of my prefered forms of art. I collect 3D renders of Angels as I find them all, even DARK styles, a joy to me.
Love the render. Love the quality. I bet the rest of your work is just as amazing. Have you tried the new Olimpus HD figure? Love the dynamic sheet wrinkling under the models arm that shows amazing attention to detail. AWESOME! What character is that skin?
"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth."
- President John F. Kennedy
I tag my pictures this way because I love seeing my name on my art. When you see one of my pictures, you know who made it. LOL Let us help other people to overcome their fear of being wrong because that is the greatest obstacle we all need to overcome.
I tend to be real forgiving of my own transgressions.
One of the most important things in this life that you can do is, walk your own path and be yourself, whatever that may be as long as it is truthful to who you are. For each of us, this leads us on a unique path and it's not something I can define in brief thoughts.
May the creative spirit bless you. May the spirit make its being shine through you to all those around you in truth, peace, abundance and hope. I call this the cardinal angel. Can you tell I love this outfit? Thanks for the feedback but even the misspelling of my name is purposeful. Hope you like this angel for your collection.
sorry in advance I'm going off topic for minute then i'll be out of everyone's hair.
That used to be my big render obsession when i started in 3d (angels) but mine were all dark.
I had a story of sorts that i told through various renders,but i guess not in a really coherent way.
but anyway, my last one was of death and that was just a little to much even for me, i doubt i'd be able to show it almost anywhere, after that i just couldn't do any more, it was strange. I guess that must have been the end of that series.
Okay back to your regularly scheduled topic. (of what i idk i wasn't paying attention, something about tacos was it? no wait i think i'm just thinking that cause I'm hungry)
Still, everyone has their own way of adding their signature and there's no real right or wrong way to do it. But be aware that it can be as jarring as it can complimentary.
sorry in advance I'm going off topic for minute then i'll be out of everyone's hair.
That used to be my big render obsession when i started in 3d (angels) but mine were all dark.
I had a story of sorts that i told through various renders,but i guess not in a really coherent way.
but anyway, my last one was of death and that was just a little to much even for me, i doubt i'd be able to show it almost anywhere, after that i just couldn't do any more, it was strange. I guess that must have been the end of that series.
Okay back to your regularly scheduled topic. (of what i idk i wasn't paying attention, something about tacos was it? no wait i think i'm just thinking that cause I'm hungry)
Dire Bunny,
I don't think you got in anybodies hare that will be talking about it. It must have been that European hare but more likely the Scrub.
Oh great i missed the opportunity for my own puns,I am not too hoppy about that. somebunny dropped the ball there.
Love the render. Love the quality. I bet the rest of your work is just as amazing. Have you tried the new Olimpus HD figure? Love the dynamic sheet wrinkling under the models arm that shows amazing attention to detail. AWESOME! What character is that skin?
I am not into Victoria 6, yet. Also, not doing nude renders at the moment.
That character is Victoria 3 (ancient history now :) ), I believe the Rose morph which was once sold at Rendo.
I, also, did a photo-realistic Gargoyle, it is here.
I am not into Victoria 6, yet. Also, not doing nude renders at the moment.
That character is Victoria 3 (ancient history now :) ), I believe the Rose morph which was once sold at Rendo.
I, also, did a photo-realistic Gargoyle, it is here.
I really do have to admire the people who take the time to make renders with that LuxRender, I don't have the patience and I never feel its actually done. I really like the Gargoyle too but he should have been sitting on top of a church or library.. :) Actually, I liked all the pictures in that thread.
Try rendering overnight, or while you're at work, or both (start it before you go to bed, check it when you get back from work) -- if you've already done a standard (3Delight) render of your scene it takes a bit to rework the lights for Lux, but once that's done and a short-run check looks good you can just let it run.
Try rendering overnight, or while you're at work, or both (start it before you go to bed, check it when you get back from work) -- if you've already done a standard (3Delight) render of your scene it takes a bit to rework the lights for Lux, but once that's done and a short-run check looks good you can just let it run.
If it was just the lights I could deal with that but LuxRender bleeds the color out of everything as in this following example.
I mean, that barn in 3delight looks absolutely brilliant. The clothing on these two figures are normally rich with colors and thanks to that program, everything goes a dull gray. I really wouldn't waste my time with it because its not really compatible with everything in DAZ Studio.. they only pretend it is.
I'm adding the same scene from 3delight that took under a minute to make.
The biggest issue I've found with a lot of automatic conversions, Reality especially, is that the gloss tends to be very high by default. What this means is that it reflects a lot of the light, leading to washed out colours and, in extreme cases sheer, white surfaces. The lighting especially needs to be tweaked since you have to think very differently when using a physically based engine.
It's possible to get extremely vibrant colours using Luxrender, but it does require learning a little bit about the engine you're using rather than relying on presets. I've included an example. It's not the best example of realism, but it does show that bright colours aren't outside Lux's capabilities.