Will DAZ3D not support HD tech on normal Genesis 1 figures?

Coon Ra

So what? Until DAZ included HD morphs support it was absolutely impossible throught DS frontface but was possible through the use of zbrush, 3dcoat or mudbox. Was that somehow easy? If they build mixed UV support in it will be handled with usual DS material presets. This way dislacement maps could be extracted into separate presets or products.

Male-M3dia

Coon Ra said:

So what? Until DAZ included HD morphs support it was absolutely impossible throught DS frontface but was possible through the use of zbrush, 3dcoat or mudbox. Was that somehow easy? If they build mixed UV support in it will be handled with usual DS material presets. This way dislacement maps could be extracted into separate presets or products.

One of the goals for Genesis was for users to quickly build characters. HD is presented in a method that is accessible and easy to the end user. Mixing HD morphs is easier than sorting out materials when UVs are combined and becomes a support nightmare. UV mixing goes beyond ease of use so I don't see it happening.

Zev0

Problem with displacement maps, ones with high protruding details is that it will cause poke through on added items on the figure. With HD morphs, clothing will follow it because it is actual mesh, not a map. So if you do extreme displacement details, you get pokethrough on clothing items, on exteme HD morphs, no pokethrough. HD works on any UV map assigned, displacement only works on a specific UV. Displacement and HD both have there uses. HD is not meant to replace displacement, but rather add functionality or gives a different approach to the matter.

mjc1016

Zev0 said:

Problem with displacement maps, ones with high protruding details is that it will cause poke through on added items on the figure. With HD morphs, clothing will follow it because it is actual mesh, not a map. So if you do extreme displacement details, you get pokethrough on clothing items, on exteme HD morphs, no pokethrough. HD works on any UV map assigned, displacement only works on a specific UV. Displacement and HD both have there uses. HD is not meant to replace displacement, but rather add functionality or gives a different approach to the matter.

There is a way to cut back on the poke through with dispmaps...but it is a lot of work to get it to look decent...it's a lot of fiddling with the displacement 'bounds' and push modifiers on the clothing. Definitely not a quick or easy thing.

Displacement works best on the top layer...be that 'naked' skin or clothing. The best approach is to use it on the outermost, visible areas.

RAMWolff

RKane_1 said:

RAMWolff said:

Zev0 said:

You can go up to sub-D level 9, but that is just overkill at this stage. We were advised to stay at lvl 3 for now based on overall current system specs. If we go higher at this stage, there will be lots of people who's systems won't be able to handle it, so as time goes on, we will up the levels. My Zbrush dies at sub-D level 6 lol, so imagine in the future the amount of detail that can be achieved.

ZBrush 5 is going to have 64 bit version so those limitations will be gone if you have a good system with allot of RAM.

Egads! I cannot wait!

... will that be a free upgrade or will I have to buy it again?

Don't know that one Robert. It's been SO SO long since they asked for money for these upgrades but now with 5 on the horizon and it's been coded for 64 bit systems (and I'm sure regular systems as well) the MIGHT ask for money. Wait and see, wait and see....

Coon Ra

Male-M3dia said:

One of the goals for Genesis was for users to quickly build characters. HD is presented in a method that is accessible and easy to the end user. Mixing HD morphs is easier than sorting out materials when UVs are combined and becomes a support nightmare. UV mixing goes beyond ease of use so I don't see it happening.
Pure nonsense. Adding/mixing extra displacement details wouldn't be harder than applying a makeup preset if mixed UVs were supported by DS.
Ah, that's the reason - "support nighmare", not the end user ease of use care. As I understand "support nightmare" led to PBM vanishing and best PA does is "head morph" and "body morph" if he care on at least some product flexibility.

Problem with displacement maps, ones with high protruding details is that it will cause poke through on added items on the figure. With HD morphs, clothing will follow it because it is actual mesh, not a map. So if you do extreme displacement details, you get pokethrough on clothing items, on exteme HD morphs, no pokethrough. HD works on any UV map assigned, displacement only works on a specific UV. Displacement and HD both have there uses. HD is not meant to replace displacement, but rather add functionality or gives a different approach to the matter.

Sorry, you remind me a person who rendered G2M figure heavily modified with male morphs and then put into some kind of armor that only eyes area remained visible. Why the hell should anyone modify with fine details hidden body parts? What's the point? Did every PA forget of partial morphs blindfolded with ease of FBM creation in Zbrush and lack of desire to separate FBM into PBM components? Displaced fine details and decols presets also might be partial, not entire body at once. And when all the info about used maps, UV set and additional material properties kept within a single preset what trouble may it cause to be applied by a mean user?

Herald of Fire

Perhaps someone could explain where the benefit is in using more than a single displacement map? Aside from the bigger overheads as your PC calculates all those extra displacements, wouldn't it still only work in a single direction and thus be no better or worse than using a single displacement map with the combined total of the individual maps?

Also, the point about displacement still stands in that it's not a mesh and therefore would break certain outfits with poke-through. Your example of armor works fine, but what about more figure hugging outfits such as jeans and tank tops? Unless you plan on having all of your figures running around nude, they don't benefit from skin displacements as much as they'd benefit from the HD morphs.

As several people have already pointed out, the benefit is in using both the HD morphs as well as displacements. It's not a one size fits all solution, and displacement, while great, has its limits.

Male-M3dia

Coon Ra said:

Male-M3dia said:

One of the goals for Genesis was for users to quickly build characters. HD is presented in a method that is accessible and easy to the end user. Mixing HD morphs is easier than sorting out materials when UVs are combined and becomes a support nightmare. UV mixing goes beyond ease of use so I don't see it happening.

Pure nonsense. Adding/mixing extra displacement details wouldn't be harder than applying a makeup preset if mixed UVs were supported by DS.
Ah, that's the reason - "support nighmare", not the end user ease of use care. As I understand "support nightmare" led to PBM vanishing and best PA does is "head morph" and "body morph" if he care on at least some product flexibility.

You say in DS, but what about Firefly? Or Luxrender? Or Octane (which doesn't support displacement at all)?

Like I said, a support nightmare. It's far easier for meshes to be passed to these renderers than shaders and materials, which each handles differently. And one of Genesis's strengths is the ease of mixing meshes. So I think what I said made perfect sense.

Herald of Fire

As far as I am aware, the current HD morph offerings are intended for SubD level 3. You shouldn't need to go to 4 levels of subdivision for them. Additionally, the benefit of the way Daz handles the HD morphs is that it's only done at render time meaning you're free to continue manipulating a standard definition mesh while you work. Of course, if you decide to render using external engines such as Lux you'll need to set the subD before you run the export, but once exported there's nothing preventing you from setting it back to normal.

Of course, I can only speak of the figure HD morphs. I do not own the creature morphs, but I can only assume that Daz Studio would deal with them in exactly the same way. As a result, despite my working with HD figures, each one is still only taking up 81k polygons in SubD level 1 or 20k without subdivision. This means Daz still runs at a very manageable speed.

mjc1016

Zev0 said:

Ummm, why would you set it up so high before rendering for viewport? The creature details were designed on lvl 3 so having it set on lvl 4 won't give you extra detail. You are just wasting resources.

That's a case where the video card becomes important. The viewport and the amount it can display/handle is directly related to the video card's memory.

Zev0

True, but having that amount of detail before render times is still overkill and basically makes the scene unmanagable, regardless of how powerful your GPU is. The whole point of the HD tech is that you still get a smooth working experience in viewport and still benefit from the HD details at render times. It's why it only has to stay at lvl1 in viewport. Unfortunately, in Poser it has to be dialled up before hand to be used.

mjc1016

Zev0 said:

True, but having that amount of detail before render times is still overkill and basically makes the scene unmanagable, regardless of how powerful your GPU is. The whole point of the HD tech is that you still get a smooth working experience in viewport and still benefit from the HD details at render times. It's why it only has to stay at lvl1 in viewport. Unfortunately, in Poser it has to be dialled up before hand to be used.

Personally, I'd use the 'beefier' video capabilities to build bigger scenes...instead of packing a small one with insanely more detail in the preview.

Zev0

Same here, however that is not my argument. My argument is that you can have the exact same large scene, one with HD dialled to full in viewport (manually remove limits) and one where it auto calculates at render times (set at lvl1), and get a major difference in performance. The whole dialling HD manually at full before rendering is unnecessary where it slows your viewport unless you really want to see the HD details before you render. That is what I am saying. End of the day you get the exact same render, just a different performance in viewport.

mjc1016

Zev0 said:

Same here, however that is not my argument. My argument is that you can have the exact same large scene, one with HD dialled to full in preview and one where it auto calculates at render times (set at lvl1), and get a major difference in performance. The whole dialling HD manually at full before rendering is unnecessary where it slows your viewport unless you really want to see the HD details before you render. That is what I am saying. End of the day you get the exact same render, just a different performance in viewport.

It's the same thing with smoothing and collision iterations...just because one can dial them up doesn't mean one should. And if one does dial them up (HD, smoothing, etc) then one should be aware that they will have a major impact on performance of the UI and most especially the viewport.

Herald of Fire

Zev0 said:

Same here, however that is not my argument. My argument is that you can have the exact same large scene, one with HD dialled to full in viewport (manually remove limits) and one where it auto calculates at render times (set at lvl1), and get a major difference in performance. The whole dialling HD manually at full before rendering is unnecessary where it slows your viewport unless you really want to see the HD details before you render. That is what I am saying. End of the day you get the exact same render, just a different performance in viewport.

The one exception to that rule is when you're exporting to Luxus or Reality. In that instance you need to set the subdivision setting before export otherwise it simply exports at the current figure resolution (usually subD 1). I do agree in principle though. If you're using Daz Studio, then having that level of subdivision is just crazy.

Besides which, I'm still confused why anyone would put it to level 4 subD in the first place. The HD figures thus far have all been at subD 3 haven't they? I can't see you getting much out of the extra level besides a exhaustively long render time and an over-stressed GPU.

Male-M3dia

HeraldOfFire said:

Besides which, I'm still confused why anyone would put it to level 4 subD in the first place. The HD figures thus far have all been at subD 3 haven't they? I can't see you getting much out of the extra level besides a exhaustively long render time and an over-stressed GPU.

I think going to a higher subdivision level will just start smoothing the detail out again.

Zev0

HeraldOfFire said:

Zev0 said:

Same here, however that is not my argument. My argument is that you can have the exact same large scene, one with HD dialled to full in viewport (manually remove limits) and one where it auto calculates at render times (set at lvl1), and get a major difference in performance. The whole dialling HD manually at full before rendering is unnecessary where it slows your viewport unless you really want to see the HD details before you render. That is what I am saying. End of the day you get the exact same render, just a different performance in viewport.

The one exception to that rule is when you're exporting to Luxus or Reality. In that instance you need to set the subdivision setting before export otherwise it simply exports at the current figure resolution (usually subD 1). I do agree in principle though. If you're using Daz Studio, then having that level of subdivision is just crazy.

Besides which, I'm still confused why anyone would put it to level 4 subD in the first place. The HD figures thus far have all been at subD 3 haven't they? I can't see you getting much out of the extra level besides a exhaustively long render time and an over-stressed GPU.

Correct. If the max detail was built at sub-d level3, upping it will not generate higher mesh details than the level the HD morph was built on. All you will be doing is adding polygon count.

wiz

HeraldOfFire said:

Perhaps someone could explain where the benefit is in using more than a single displacement map? Aside from the bigger overheads as your PC calculates all those extra displacements, wouldn't it still only work in a single direction and thus be no better or worse than using a single displacement map with the combined total of the individual maps?

It makes it easy to have a library of textural details. Various wrinkle maps, scar maps, mole maps. Nearly sparse JPEGS tend to be pretty small.

Theu also coordinate nicely with matching texture maps.

Also, the point about displacement still stands in that it's not a mesh and therefore would break certain outfits with poke-through. Your example of armor works fine, but what about more figure hugging outfits such as jeans and tank tops? Unless you plan on having all of your figures running around nude, they don't benefit from skin displacements as much as they'd benefit from the HD morphs.

As several people have already pointed out, the benefit is in using both the HD morphs as well as displacements. It's not a one size fits all solution, and displacement, while great, has its limits.

Nude? There's an awful lot of clothing that isn't skimp wear.

Pendraia

RKane_1 said:

Male-M3dia said:

RKane_1 said:

Great. I might buy it, I may not.

But if you were to build an M5HD figure up to your usual standards, you would have my money but I won't hold my breath.

And any other vendor that still loves G1 and has good skills, I am game. So is my money.

As a PA, it would really be a vanity product as sales usually don't support revisiting previous generation or even products from over a year old. The sales would not justify my time unless I just don't have anything else to make or have lots of free time... and I'm already backed up with items in the queue, ready to be packaged up or released that I know will sell a lot more. Making HD items is extra work and considering how my last two G1 item sales were far below any other products of that generation and had far more work involved then the G2 items selling far above my G1s, I can't justify making anything unless it's filling a serious need and I see far more things needing filled in in G2 than G1.

Sounds like you are busy. No need to bother yourself with it, then.

Bye. :)

Anyone else want my money? :)

Anyone else interested in this option for Genesis 1?

I would be interested but I'm well aware that DAZ and their PAs are unlikely to make them. I am not their optimal market and I understand and accept this fact.

I'm not going to join in arguing about which generation of figures are best...it's futile.

Which kind of makes the point for making HD open to the community...

I would guess since it's new tech, they're recouping their investment on it, so if you want access you would have to have it sold here.... which you can't do if you just give it away. Also since it is new, it doesn't need to be out in the wild. DAZ is a business foremost, and they do have to make money to keep the store open.

No one is asking them to do it for free.

I would be happy to have access to a paid for plug in to allow me to create my own HD characters. I accept the fact that if I want something different to the standard offerings I will need to make things for myself...I would just like access to the tools that would allow me to do so.

mjc1016

Pendraia said:

Male-M3dia said:

mjc1016 said:

Which kind of makes the point for making HD open to the community...

I would guess since it's new tech, they're recouping their investment on it, so if you want access you would have to have it sold here.... which you can't do if you just give it away. Also since it is new, it doesn't need to be out in the wild. DAZ is a business foremost, and they do have to make money to keep the store open.

No one is asking them to do it for free.

I would be happy to have access to a paid for plug in to allow me to create my own HD characters. I accept the fact that if I want something different to the standard offerings I will need to make things for myself...I would just like access to the tools that would allow me to do so.

And it's not like other plugins don't have a 'paid' and 'basic' version...

RKane_1

Pendraia said:

RKane_1 said:

Male-M3dia said:

RKane_1 said:

Great. I might buy it, I may not.

But if you were to build an M5HD figure up to your usual standards, you would have my money but I won't hold my breath.

And any other vendor that still loves G1 and has good skills, I am game. So is my money.

As a PA, it would really be a vanity product as sales usually don't support revisiting previous generation or even products from over a year old. The sales would not justify my time unless I just don't have anything else to make or have lots of free time... and I'm already backed up with items in the queue, ready to be packaged up or released that I know will sell a lot more. Making HD items is extra work and considering how my last two G1 item sales were far below any other products of that generation and had far more work involved then the G2 items selling far above my G1s, I can't justify making anything unless it's filling a serious need and I see far more things needing filled in in G2 than G1.

Sounds like you are busy. No need to bother yourself with it, then.

Bye. :)

Anyone else want my money? :)

Anyone else interested in this option for Genesis 1?

I would be interested but I'm well aware that DAZ and their PAs are unlikely to make them. I am not their optimal market and I understand and accept this fact.

I'm not going to join in arguing about which generation of figures are best...it's futile.

I too am not arguing about which figure is superior, either. That is a matter of opinion. I like Genesis and maybe I may warm up to Genesis 2 eventually HOWEVER, I want more HD tech opened up to Genesis for normal characters.

Can't hurt to ask.

Which kind of makes the point for making HD open to the community...

I would guess since it's new tech, they're recouping their investment on it, so if you want access you would have to have it sold here.... which you can't do if you just give it away. Also since it is new, it doesn't need to be out in the wild. DAZ is a business foremost, and they do have to make money to keep the store open.

No one is asking them to do it for free.

I would be happy to have access to a paid for plug in to allow me to create my own HD characters. I accept the fact that if I want something different to the standard offerings I will need to make things for myself...I would just like access to the tools that would allow me to do so.

Ditto. I can pay me money for the super duper secret squirrel method too. I have money to spend.

Pendraia

RKane_1 said:

Pendraia said:

RKane_1 said:

Male-M3dia said:

RKane_1 said:

Great. I might buy it, I may not.

But if you were to build an M5HD figure up to your usual standards, you would have my money but I won't hold my breath.

And any other vendor that still loves G1 and has good skills, I am game. So is my money.

As a PA, it would really be a vanity product as sales usually don't support revisiting previous generation or even products from over a year old. The sales would not justify my time unless I just don't have anything else to make or have lots of free time... and I'm already backed up with items in the queue, ready to be packaged up or released that I know will sell a lot more. Making HD items is extra work and considering how my last two G1 item sales were far below any other products of that generation and had far more work involved then the G2 items selling far above my G1s, I can't justify making anything unless it's filling a serious need and I see far more things needing filled in in G2 than G1.

Sounds like you are busy. No need to bother yourself with it, then.

Bye. :)

Anyone else want my money? :)

Anyone else interested in this option for Genesis 1?

I would be interested but I'm well aware that DAZ and their PAs are unlikely to make them. I am not their optimal market and I understand and accept this fact.

I'm not going to join in arguing about which generation of figures are best...it's futile.

I too am not arguing about which figure is superior, either. That is a matter of opinion. I like Genesis and maybe I may warm up to Genesis 2 eventually HOWEVER, I want more HD tech opened up to Genesis for normal characters.

Can't hurt to ask.

Very true...if you don't ask people won't know that you are interested.
Which kind of makes the point for making HD open to the community...

I would guess since it's new tech, they're recouping their investment on it, so if you want access you would have to have it sold here.... which you can't do if you just give it away. Also since it is new, it doesn't need to be out in the wild. DAZ is a business foremost, and they do have to make money to keep the store open.

No one is asking them to do it for free.

I would be happy to have access to a paid for plug in to allow me to create my own HD characters. I accept the fact that if I want something different to the standard offerings I will need to make things for myself...I would just like access to the tools that would allow me to do so.

Ditto. I can pay me money for the super duper secret squirrel method too. I have money to spend.

I would imagine there are many people who would be willing to buy a plug in for this...

Arcane Von Oblivion

lol yea anyways, I'm sitting here waiting.....not spending much waiting (mind you I'm not really complaining so don't take it that way please)

Male-M3dia

Pendraia said:

I would imagine there are many people who would be willing to buy a plug in for this...

Hypothetically speaking, if DAZ was looking to recoup their investment for the tech, how much would you think the plugin would cost versus having it available to only to those that will sell it in their store? I would imagine it would price most people out from buying it, and one-off sales that are affordable to the average user isn't going to recoup their investment. For the most part, DAZ has gave the community tools to make content for free through their software; as a business they're allowed to keep some tech exclusive for their own product lines.

That said, as far as target markets, products are always driven by supply and demand. If demand is high enough, then stuff will be made. I'll make things according to need as well as past sales. A lot of genesis 1 projects had to be dropped because of the switch to Genesis 2, and not because of whether a figure is better or not, the sales of the last releases of Gen 1 were far lower then previous releases that it didn't make sense to continue... then the Gen 2 sales were so much higher that it was what the majority of people wanted. Although I have a bit more leeway with what I release, if I need money to pay for things, I can't pay for them with wishlists or emotions; I have to make things that will at least recoup my investment. Since there is a higher effort in making HD products, i have to make sure it will sell. Right now, unless you're doing creatures, most people are buying Gen 2 and the products in the DAZ store as well as more items appearing in other stores (where Gen1 was largely ignored) is proof of that.

That's not to say that someone will not make an Gen1 human HD product, but the expectation should made that vendors do release things with the expectation of recouping their investment or with the acknowledgment that it may not make as much money but they'll take the risk anyway. A lot of those people will rarely do the latter.

RKane_1

Last two normal figures I bought were Genesis 1 (Lyoness? You do beautiful work. :) )

There is still a market for it, obviously but not as great as the new bigger.

Since I am unfamiliar with the process of HD, I do not know if it is possible to do work on Genesis 2 and port it backwards to a Gen 1 figure or perhaps visa versa. If that process is easy enough, it means you could make a figure, let's call him "Ricardo" and sell a Ricardo G2M HD and RIcardo G1 HD and the Ricardo bundle for those that want both. You open up more opportunities for profit.

If the process is NOT as easy as say converting G1 morphs to G2 is (Thanks to Kattey for her lovely tutorials! :) ) and if converting is NOT so easy and it is just as easy to make a new HD figure instead, then I can definitely see your argument.

Zev0

I don't think HD morphs can be transferred between G1 and G2 or vice versa. So you have to choose what to support. HD can be transferred between G2M and G2F, but not G1,as far as I know.

RKane_1

Has anyone tried? :)

mjc1016

Zev0 said:

I don't think HD morphs can be transferred between G1 and G2 or vice versa. So you have to choose what to support. HD can be transferred between G2M and G2F, but not G1,as far as I know.

Since the base poly count between G1 and G2 is different, the subdivisions will be different too...by a considerable factor each time you subdivide...so when you get to 3 levels there will be a huge discrepancy. With that kind of disparity, there isn't going to be an easy way (and probably not a difficult one, either) to transfer between G1 and G2. And that doesn't even account for the differences in edge loops and overall polygon arrangements.

RKane_1

I thought the direct vertex count and what was not as important anymore with the autofit-type tech being used. As long as the figures were close and both HD, Wouldn't the changes in vertex count be irrelevant using, say Kattey's method?

SickleYield

RKane_1 said:

I thought the direct vertex count and what was not as important anymore with the autofit-type tech being used. As long as the figures were close and both HD, Wouldn't the changes in vertex count be irrelevant using, say Kattey's method?

Try it and see what happens.