I want to Pick a nit...
eclark1849
Posts: 211
First of all, I'm not calling anyone racist here. It is just pure observation of a pattern I've spotted. Why are all the promo pictures in the DAZ store (and not just the DAZ Store to be honest, but pretty much all of them, Rendo, CP, RDNA) all WHITE people? Mostly women, a few guys, but unless the product being display or sold is specifically for a particular ethnic group or an animal, the individual(s) in the promos are almost exclusively Scandanavian white skinned individuals? Why not show a little diversity people? Genesis DOES do black people, right?:coolgrin:
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My guess is because not everybody has dove in to the particulars of setting up ethnic mats. For instance dark skin isn't going to have the same shader setup as light skin. I recall a post somewhere by MaleM3dia on the subject, but I don't remember if the post was here or the old forums.
Here's a thread with a massive list of vendors who create African-American textures and lists of textures, hair, etc.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/368/
It also has links to other discussion threads regarding lighting, shader colors, etc., even material colors to change to turn light skin textures to darker skins.
I think maybe you haven't noticed that over the years we have done ethnic characters of various ethnic backgrounds at Daz3D. Many for various characters and figures. As a photographer of photographic reference materials, I have been lucky enough to find real life humans of ethnic backgrounds to pose for 3D references, but part of the reason we have so FEW racially ethnic references is, that they are from groups which refuse to get undressed in front of a camera for realistic photo-reference photography. I also live in Europe, where ethnics like blacks and arabs etc, are mostly Moslem/Islamic, and will never get naked for a camera in order to be photographed for "Photo Realistic Textures".
Keep in mind, a 3D character skin requires nude photos of a real human being taken up close and specially lit so as not to have shadows on them, and the person must be photographed in a full 360 degree radius. In order to do a complete photo reference, one must photograph EVERY INCH of the person's skin, that included the nether regions.
Those I have managed to find who were not prude about stripping for a camera for 3D use, were white anglo-saxons who had no issues with nudity. I managed also to find many asians who were not shy either. The majority of africans here (real africans -- not afro-americans) are of a religious persuasion where they would not get in front of a camera for that type of photo. Moslems, Arabs etc also would not.
Of the mutiple ethnic projects I have worked on with other Published Artists here on Daz3D, we have made characters ranging from Asians, including Thai, Chinese, Korean, and Filipino. And other african-americans with Male-M3Dia & JSGraphics (Wynn M5) and (Ryuu M5) as well as working with Jepe on several of his Movie Men Packs which included Will Smith, Wesley Snipes and Denzel Washington look-alikes).
I don't see where you are getting the impression that Daz3D is a tighty-whitey operation. The problems are more like --- you get us ethnic models willing to pose nude for 3D texturing references and we will make whatever ethnic character you want!
Do a bit more research before you jump the gun.
ProFotograf (Antonio Rodriguez)
- Male Model Photoreference Photographer
- Daz Published Artist
http://www.daz3d.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/350x455/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/j/e/jepes-fgh-m4-large.jpg
Some example links for you of ethnic and mixed race models used for 3D here at Daz.
Thai Model:
http://www.daz3d.com/jepes-sang-m4
http://www.daz3d.com/jepe-s-sang-2-0
Latino Male Model:
http://www.daz3d.com/jepes-rodan-m4
http://www.daz3d.com/jepe-s-rodan-2-0
Asian Male Model (Vietnamese):
http://www.daz3d.com/ryuu-international-m4-and-genesis
http://www.daz3d.com/ryuu-for-m5
Sicilian Male Model:
http://www.daz3d.com/santo-international-for-m4
http://www.daz3d.com/santo-for-m5
French Male Model:
http://www.daz3d.com/jepes-ian-pierre
http://www.daz3d.com/jepe-s-pierre
Spanish Male Model (Canary Islands):
http://www.daz3d.com/marius-jmm-ix
African American Male Model:
http://www.daz3d.com/tyrese-for-m5
http://www.daz3d.com/tyrese-for-m4
African American Female Model:
http://www.daz3d.com/leena-international-v4
http://www.daz3d.com/leena-international-generations
African American Males:
http://www.daz3d.com/jepes-fgh-m4
I do put African and Asian looking characters into my renders when they're contemporary. I feel uneasy putting them into fantasy outfits most of the time, especially black people, because a lot of that that we use here is primitive-looking and I don't want to be promoting "Africans are tribal savages"-type racism. It's one thing when I'm using archetypes based on the primitivism of my own ancestors; nobody thinks it's racist when you show a naked Nordic person with a club, because America doesn't have decades of nastiness based on that archetype.
Now, I could be making more of a push to have my elves, orcs, vampires, etc. look like they aren't all from lily-white European ancestors, because if they're fantasy anyway, who cares? That's definitely something to work toward. In retrospect I wish I had done more of that with the mermaid promos. Tolkien and those like him wrote heroes who were pale, but that doesn't mean we have to follow their example in 2014.
Wait, there are people who AREN'T WHITE?! That's racist of you to bring up!
But seriously there's nothing wrong with acknowledging race, it exists and people are way overly sensitive about it. It's also true, I'd love more non-Caucasian textures and morphs. Here here!
I can assure you, Genesis does do black people. ;)
While we understand the concern raised, please bear in mind that this is part of a very sensitive topic and strive to avoid writing anything that may come across as inflammatory. We have already had to trim the thread once.
I've asked this question multiple times and never had it answered, finally someone answers it without asking. Textures are made from actual nude models. That, itself, explains everything even without the personal anecdotes. Most first-world countries (the countries with people who can do 3D-modeling as a hobby) are largely dominated by "white" races (which include dozens of specific ethnicities in it's own right), at least largely white-dominated in the middle-class and up (remember, 3d-modeling as a hobby isn't cheap). Ipso-facto, there are naturally many more white models.
Let's not forget that the modeling business is staggeringly-white, and I doubt photographers like ProFotograf solicit people on the street for high-def nude photography sessions.
I love these kinds of threads, sensitive topics are when the best discussion is formed.
Just so you know, I wasn't criticizing DAZ about offering ethnic textures. I fully admit that i don't know the difficulties of of obtaining photo realistic textures, but that's not what i was pointing out. I was pointing to the fact that very rarely, in fact, almost never, are other races depicted in the PROMO renders, unless the product itself is about a particular ethnic group. Go ahead, tip toe thru the store and tell me how many products you see where the product is not about a particular ethnic group, do you see a person of color.
Richard, I'm sorry. wasn't trying to stir up trouble, wasn't calling anyone names. Just pointing out something i noticed.
Would imagine it's just because the promotional renders are typically done with the first pre-set figures which come to hand - Victoria and Michael. Saves time, is all.
There's no reason why one can't have more than two ready-made characters on one's hard drive. Why not mix things up a bit?
Because convenience is a part of human nature. :)
You might as well ask why people haven't more often used Gia or Olympia or Freak 5... It's nothing to do with dislike of a certain skin or muscle tone.
Personally, I'm all for more multi-ethnic stuff. I'd love it if there were some black/Asian/native American/etcetera skin packs available for Genesis 1 and 2. I'd purchase them in an instant, just as I recently snatched up Felicity HD. Although, as pointed out above, there are specific historical/cultural instances where it would feel inaccurate to include certain ethnicities (white included) standing around at random.
Greetings,
I did notice the topic was promo renders, not the usual discussion about the lack of characters themselves, which is definitely a refreshing conversational change. The other is important, but it's been really clearly explained a few times.
Frankly...you're right.
There's no good reason swimsuits, lingerie, daily clothes, etc., should be modeled by one type of character. There are a few understandable reasons, such as the preponderance of characters in all runtimes being somewhat similar. If you pick a character at random to show off an outfit, or to stand in an environment, you're less likely to pick an ethnic character just because of the already-discussed dearth of them.
I can only imagine that promo renders are done under some amount of time pressure, and folks mostly grab what's at hand and use one character throughout the promo. Thus the promo renders which have the exact same pose, just 5 different textures, and all the same character, and stuff like that.
There are certainly also cases where a vendor will have a character they think their outfits (thinking clothing mainly, obviously) looks better on it. Thus all of some PA's products are obviously promo'd on exactly the same underlying character because the PA thinks that character 'shows it off' best (or is hot enough that the customer won't look closely at the clothes, honestly).
But I completely agree with you; especially for the 'artistic promo' shots, a wider variety would be wonderful.
...and I should certainly apply that to my own, less commercial, renders as well. :)
-- Morgan
I promo animals.... Does that make me a Speciesist? :-)
Seriously, as with mannequins, when dealing with clothing, most people want a *standard reference*. That reference is usually Vicky and/or Mike.
When you start getting into differing skin tones, body shapes, etc the actual product is no longer the focus, the model is.
Here's an idea: just make everyone use the Grey Golem? ... The sales would plummet.
Stopping here.
Kendall
Get out of here, we don't take kindly to... Penguin Samurai(?)... around these parts.
More than that, setting up lights to show off darker skin is extra work... if you're used to lighting for pale skinned sorts. ;) Many of my images that I do for my own projects involve Asian skin tones or aliens with very dark skin-- the lighting for those very dark tones is tough!
I made a point of mixing ethnicities in the promos for Pattern Magic and Quilts & Calicos. The effects are less obvious in my WaterCam promos-- the female is inside a diving suit, and the male (merman) has anime features and non-human skin (it's actually bluish with glowing spots). I should have done a bit more with this in ToonyCam Pro. I'll make a point of doing better with SketchyCam Pro. :) Thanks for the reminder!
Very informative post Antonio! Nice to see you post! Interesting thread and a good topic (sensitive or not) ....
It sounds to me like the problem is you simply aren't looking in the right areas and you're in excuse mode. A statical analysis of Los Angeles, California easily demonstrates that the majority of people living in that city are NOT White, anglo or otherwise. A quick call to any of the dozens of agencies in the area will net you a list of promising actors and actresses hoping to get some name recognition.
Maybe the problem is that your not selling what you do in a way that entices people to want to pose for you because if all you need is models then get our backside to "The Valley" just north of Hollywood and get in touch with some agents. The porn industry is booming with people of all ethnic backgrounds and skin colors that would be more than happy to have you photograph every inch of what they got for artistic purposes. To them it would be a bonus that they don't have to perform while you photograph them.
I love the honesty here and personally, I can really relate to what SickleYield is saying. I think it has more to do with the person making the art and what they feel comfortable in distributing. I would imagine that most likely many of the people making art filled with white characters are simply representing what they feel at ease with.
I personally have several character in my runtime that are a variety of colors but even when I make ethnic based pictures I rarely feel comfortable distributing them because I worry about perception.
Take this picture that I made a while back... It's not racist, I'm not racist and yet, I still don't feel comfortable putting it out with my name on it for the simple reason that I don't want to be labeled racist. I remade the same image with a white character and that didn't bother me.
It seems we are damned if we do and damned if we don't but ultimately I think FEAR of being labeled a racist and misrepresenting cultures we don't really know might be a bigger issue that we can all work on. I think the problem is too many people rushing out to point the finger and label the artist for his expression... Maybe we all just need thicker skins.
Thanks for sharing SickleYield.
I hadn't noticed anyone being left out of promos, personally. I always include people of color in my promos... just check out my store. I also notice other PA's doing the same in their promos. Unless the product is a Caucasian character, there isn't any reason not to include some diversity. Maybe the OP hasn't noticed, but I don't think it's accurate to say they are being left out.
Sure!
.. Except..
Not everyone lives in America. :) There is a great big world out there! Lets try not to assume all PA's live in the good ol' USA, or even anywhere near LA. Pro is sharing his experience. I don't think he did that expecting to be "corrected" for it. Its just a friendly discussion from a photographer's point of view.
As for the original topic..
I struggle with this all of the time when I do my promos for clothing. Here is what I think about when I set them up:
- Are the model surface shaders the same or similar? Vastly different shaders will introduce unnecessary lighting issues.
- Are the diffuse textures of the quality necessary to produce a good final render?
- Are the models acceptable for demonstrating the clothing?
- What is the environment?
The diffuse textures, aka skin color, never comes to mind. But now that you have mentioned it, I will do what I can to switch things up going forward. Great topic!
~Bluebird
Sure!
.. Except..
Not everyone lives in America. :) There is a great big world out there! Lets try not to assume all PA's live in the good ol' USA, or even anywhere near LA. Pro is sharing his experience. I don't think he did that expecting to be "corrected" for it. Its just a friendly discussion from a photographer's point of view.
As for the original topic..
I struggle with this all of the time when I do my promos for clothing. Here is what I think about when I set them up:
- Are the model surface shaders the same or similar? Vastly different shaders will introduce unnecessary lighting issues.
- Are the diffuse textures of the quality necessary to produce a good final render?
- Are the models acceptable for demonstrating the clothing?
- What is the environment?
The diffuse textures, aka skin color, never comes to mind. But now that you have mentioned it, I will do what I can to switch things up going forward. Great topic!
~Bluebird
I can live with that but every major continent in the world has brothels... Brothels, strip clubs, modeling agencies, escort services. You tell me the continent and I'll bet I can find one within 200 miles of anywhere. Art students, media hopefuls... the world is full of people that are happy to show you whatever you want if your willing to pay for it.
If you got the skill then its all in how your looking at it and thats the bottom line to me. You forget it can also be a great launching platform for the right people into world media. I could make you famous if you give me a few hours.
Also, while I have no doubt that some PA's might hire models to get their textures a great many rely on merchant resources and stock photographs. Not everyone has the salary to afford a professional photoshoot for a texture set, and even those who do need to balance out the costs with what they're likely to recover in sales.
Also, while I have no doubt that some PA's might hire models to get their textures a great many rely on merchant resources and stock photographs. Not everyone has the salary to afford a professional photoshoot for a texture set, and even those who do need to balance out the costs with what they're likely to recover in sales.
You do know what they say about excuses, right? Yeah, everyone has one. What does any of that have to do with me telling a established professional that he can find people willing to take their clothes off all over the place if he opens his eyes wider?
The only thing I can change is the way that I look at things but first I have to be willing to look from a different perspective to see it. Change the way you look at things and the thing you look at change.. maybe even get undressed and naked for you. :) Need a picture? LOL
Well, I did check. Out of nine products listed, I did notice the toon Black girl. I will say though that it was your Genesis 2 legacy shape promos that actually brought the issue to my notice in the first place. So while I will agree that you have included at least ONE person of color, I can't go along with your statement that you ALWAYS include a person of color.
But look, I'm not calling anyone out, or trying to embarrass anyone. It's your product and you can promote it however you want. I just noticed, that's all.
Hmm... all the products in my store that I've actually made the promos for in the last 2 years or so have at least one non white person in them.. with the exception of the Riva jewelry that only has the Riva character shown... it's in a bundle with that character so that was a calculated advertising decision completely unrelated to the race of the character.
There are also way too many elf ears in 3D ... DAZ is the worst offender... ..please ban elf ears and make ears that properly reflect the diversity of ears in the real world.
...But this one I'll fight you on. I want my fantasy ears, elves included, and I'm going to keep right on making them.
Well, I did check. Out of nine products listed, I did notice the toon Black girl. I will say though that it was your Genesis 2 legacy shape promos that actually brought the issue to my notice in the first place. So while I will agree that you have included at least ONE person of color, I can't go along with your statement that you ALWAYS include a person of color.
But look, I'm not calling anyone out, or trying to embarrass anyone. It's your product and you can promote it however you want. I just noticed, that's all.
I think my point is being missed... I never claimed that all my store icons include people of color. I said that all my products have people of color in the promos, which means the popups you see when you go to the product page, not the store icon. Open the promos I spent days rendering and you will see that I, in fact, do just as I said. As for the legacy shapes, each of them are Caucasian characters, not because I chose it, but because the originals are and that is the purpose of the sets... To reproduce the originals. You and others are trying to make me look like a hypocrite and I take that personally, whether you meant it or not. I'm not embarrassed because I am not wrong. Always might have been an exaggeration, but of the 9 products, 5 have people of color in the promos and a sixth uses pink and blue in place of human tones. So, three out of nine and I'm made to look like a liar. And don't forget, people of color doesn't just mean African. You say ONE, I say count again.
What it tells me is that you're not willing to listen to what an established professional is telling you. He just said that he has trouble finding non-white nude models where he is. I happen to know he isn't in the US. I'm inclined to take his word over yours in this matter.
As for excuses... all I'll say is that it's easy to make claims about how other people should do their work when you don't have to produce the results yourself.
The original poster had a valid point. Several PAs (myself included) have acknowledged it, and made a commitment to trying to do better in the future.
The elephant in the room, of course, is whether products will sell as well if the character used in the primary promo image is a non-white person. I don't know how much the ethnicity of the human model affects the sales of clothing, props, etc., but I've heard from PAs that non-caucasian characters (especially morphs) don't sell as well as caucasian characters. I'm not happy about that, but how much should individual content creators invest in fighting against the tide? This isn't a hobby for most of them, or a social crusade. It's an attempt to pay the mortgage and put food on the table. The content creators are prisoners of the market more than the reverse.
Most of the "human" characters I have made were people with colour (or overtly albino)...because I like to have more contrast to the characters in my art shots.
Human characters are not my best sellers, so I cant comment on how well they sell. People look to me for monsters for some reason..not humans LOL
Rawn