where to learn box modeling?
Box8068_31c338ee4b
Posts: 292
I've done a good bit of modeling in carrara, but I have rarely started with a pure primitive. Does anyone know of a good book or other reference for learning box modeling? I hear a lot about it on this fourm thought it would be a good place to ask.
Thanks
8068
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I always thought that Box modeling was referring to extrusion modeling, as we do in the vertex modeler. I must say, I've seen a few posts that seem to refer to modeling primitives. One was even talking about using Booleans on a primitive. (?) I would be interested in knowing such things myself.
Otherwise, for polygon modeling using the vertex modeler, there are some interesting posts in the Carrara Community Movie Project threads. In one of those, Mike Moir posts some links to video tutorials regarding modeling human heads, which are each nice workflow examples.
Not a book, but Advanced Carrara Techniques - Infinite Skills - taught by our own Mr. Phil Wilkes, does a wonderful job of covering many forms of modeling in Carrara with an early, heavy emphasis on the process and importance of UV Mapping, including Unwrapping. I cannot say enough good things towards how much I love this course. The airplane model session includes everything from setting up image guides for inside the model room to using Fenric's ERC for Carrara to control all of the flaps and the wires that link them by moving only one of them. Neat touch to the training. It's a Bi-Plane, so it really helps that, moving one flap the other three follow along properly (Opposite side go opposite as it would on the real plane). But he has many sessions teaching how to model many, many things using all of your modeling tools.
I have heard that the Carrara 5 Pro Handbook is excellent as far as a Carrara modeling book.
Digital Animation Bible: Creating Professional Animation with 3ds Max, Lightwave, and Maya by George Avgerakis is what I've used as a text book towards modeling a human, and I thought it to be great. George teaches the lesson in parallel - Vertex (box) modeling and Spline (nurbs) modeling. The animation studies begin after first modeling the human figure, including individual eyelashes, the full welding in of the inner mouth with all of the teeth, modeling the ears... nothing is skipped.
Here is what I have under the "Modeling" section of Cripeman's tutorials:
Cool Carrara Tricks - Building Better Bricks
Cool Carrara Tricks - Building a Cityscape Pt 1
Cool Carrara Tricks - Building a Cityscape Pt 2
Cool Carrara Tricks - Modeling a Mailbox
Modeling a Barrel using the Lathe Tool
How to Make a Steam Punk Arch
How to Model a Cityscape Pt 1
How to Model a Cityscape Pt 2
How to Model a Cityscape Pt 3
How to Model a Cityscape Pt 4
How to Make a Mushroom Cloud Pt 1
How to Make a Mushroom Cloud Pt 2
Make a Display Case
Modeling a Rope
Making a Simple Flower
Making Keyboard Shortcuts for the Spline Modeler
Modeling a Human Head Part 1
Modeling a Human Head Part 2
Modeling a Human Head Part 3
Model a Figurine in 10 Minutes
Model a Facade
Modeling Pipes
Modeling Ruled Surfaces
Making Morph Targets on Your Figures
8086
carrara's box modelling capabilities are slightly hamstrung by it's lack of a knife tool
knife tool will cut through a mesh and add verticie where it cuts an edge and an edge where it cuts a poly - instant - loop!
have you seen the joan d'arc tut - based on extruding polys, - very good
http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp
I posted a short video of simple box modelling using Hexagon. I'm certain the same could be done in Carrara but the video was for the iclone forum where some people asked about modelling in general from time to time.
I recorded the video in real-time - it is eight minutes long and unfortunately I hesitate here and there. But it shows creating a basic tractor shape using a cube and a cylinder. It was the ease of use rather than finished outcome I was demonstrating.
The link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAfxXPvkAR0&feature=player_detailpage
I learned a lot from Polyloop tutorials. The site is in French but many tutorials are in English. And in many cases the images speak for themselves.
http://www.polyloop.net/forumdisplay.php/58-Tutoriaux
Wowwww.... so many links!!! Nice Dartan! Thanks... I think I'll have to create a group in my markers tab to keep track to all the forum posts that have nice links to tuts... Or giving up sleeping and eating to be able to follow everything ;) Nop.... I will go with the markers groups... Sleeping and eating are very pleasant things :P
No need :) Gotcha covered! They're all easy to find in the:
►►► Carrara Information Manual ◄◄◄
Cooooollllll!!!!! :lol: What would I do without you Dartan!!! :-)
I was not familiar with the term either, looked it up - Its an accepted industry term, "Box Modeling" is same as primitive modeling. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_modeling
I was not familiar with the term either, looked it up - Its an accepted industry term, "Box Modeling" is same as primitive modeling. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_modeling
I think there is the possibility of confusion just because a primitive object in Carrara is treated differently than a vertex object. Box modeling seems to be associated with vertex objects. The wiki page linked to above is referring to the kind of extrusion methods that Dart referred to, which I don't think can be done with what Carrara calls a primitive object, but can be with what Carrara calls a vertex object.
See the reference to extrusion in this quote from the wiki
"Quads[edit]
Quadrilateral faces, commonly named "quads", are the fundamental entity in box modeling. If an artist were to start with a cube, the artist would have six quad faces to work with before extrusion."
Yeah, I've heard the term as that's what I was taught - Box modeling. It means you're starting from a cube.
I always thought that, unless you convert to vertex modeler, primitives were just primitives and there was no modeling involved, aside from putting them together to create a more complex end result.
I think 8068 was asking for tutorial information on primitive modeling, not box modeling - but I could be wrong. So I feel curious about the idea, as I have no clue about primitive modeling at this point, and would love to know what I might be missing - at least information-wise.
Personally, I like box modeling. That's how I work : Start with a cube and extrude away to create models. It's easy but can be as complex as we make it, and it's become very fun. The more I do it, the more I love it.
An interesting thing to me, I once converted a sphere primitive to the vertex modeler and noticed that it uses twice the polygons as a sphere of the same fidelity constructed within the vertex modeler, because all quads have been triangulated. I wasn't sure if this occurred during the conversion to the other modeler, or if that's just the way a primitive sphere is made by default.
I can't recall if it was Fenric or Sparrowhawke, one of them gives out the missing primitives of Carrara. I've checked out the coil primitive for a project I'm working on, and it has parameters that can be set to change its appearance and behavior in its own modeling room view - so I'm wondering if all primitives have their own primitive modeling capabilities? I guess I just have to check this stuff out.
One thing is for sure:
Carrara is an amazing modeler, in my opinion. Sure, I'm all over that vertex modeler with all of its tools - some of which I have yet to explore. I think it's really cool that the VM has it's own modifiers list and replicator that can be used within the object. Just cool.
But we also have an incredible spline modeler, which gives us access to a whole different style of how we can build models. The text book I mentioned in my first reply, I gave my copy to evilproducer, since he seems to really groove on the spline modeler, and it has instructions for making humans both by box modeling and using nurbs or splines. Although I have not followed the exercises for making the nurb style, I read the first few segments of those instructions. Looks like a really interesting workflow. I have the principles of the education offered - at least for the basic, overall shape, learned and sitting in the back of my mind for when I decide to attempt it. It really looks like an interesting way to model.
Being from a background of sculpting in stone, it feels to me as if box modeling is like an inverse sculpt - building up details. No matter, I took to that fairly naturally once I finally stopped being overwhelmed by the thought of modeling with vertices in 3d. It just seems to me that anything can be created using this method.
But now also being from an even deeper background of drawing in my sketchbook, Spline modeling (Nurb modeling) seems more like drawing. Start with the outside shape and work inwards, start from the inside and work out... however you feel most comfortable when drawing, you can do so using splines. I'm not exactly sure how Curvy3d works. It seems like a spline modeling method that also uses Booleans to assist? It looks like a fun alternative to those that just haven't found comfort in other methods. To me, it's less predictable but is quite fun - so I'm glad that I bought it... but don't use it frequently. More just a doodle for fun thing so far. Eventually I may just get serious with it and see what I can build.
Carrara also has metaball modeling and then all of the extra primitive modelers like the terrain and plants, etc., that just make Carrara into a real workhorse for creating anything 3d, and I feel very fortunate to have found it! :)
Thanks everyone for all the info. Not sure if I meant literal box modeling or primitive. I guess creating a complex object starting with a cube.
Thanks
8068
Too right. The knife tool is all but absolutely necessary.
Too right. The knife tool is all but absolutely necessary.
The knife tool is the most over-rated feature of all time.
Just kidding, but matching tone. ;-)
But seriously, I have gone through modeling tutorials by VTC and elsewhere for Hexagon and youtube for other programs, but when I am constructing a scene in Carrara and I need to add a dog or a computer keyboard, or... I have the tools in C8.5 to accomplish the job. I am all for adding more tools or using a different program to model elements as convenient, but if C8 is missing an absolutely necessary tool, I ought to be more frustrated than I am.
I'm not trying to start a flame war. My point is that if people are comfortable with Hexagon (or Blender, or LW or...), they should stick with it until they get frustrated. But what is it about the knife tool that I am missing? Why the loving adoration? Rather than sticking up for Carrara, I am actually saying "I want me some of that!" ;-)
But lack-of-knife-tool induced depression just doesn't seem to come up in my life.
Seriously, I'll go back and start rewatching the tutorials and put the time in to learn Hexagon or Blender or whatever if there is something I can't model in Carrara, but so far I don't know enough to realize that I should be more frustrated.
The knife tool is the most over-rated feature of all time.
Just kidding, but matching tone. ;-)
But seriously, I have gone through modeling tutorials by VTC and elsewhere for Hexagon and youtube for other programs, but when I am constructing a scene in Carrara and I need to add a dog or a computer keyboard, or... I have the tools in C8.5 to accomplish the job. I am all for adding more tools or using a different program to model elements as convenient, but if C8 is missing an absolutely necessary tool, I ought to be more frustrated than I am.
I'm not trying to start a flame war. My point is that if people are comfortable with Hexagon (or Blender, or LW or...), they should stick with it until they get frustrated. But what is it about the knife tool that I am missing? Why the loving adoration? Rather than sticking up for Carrara, I am actually saying "I want me some of that!" ;-)
But lack-of-knife-tool induced depression just doesn't seem to come up in my life.
Seriously, I'll go back and start rewatching the tutorials and put the time in to learn Hexagon or Blender or whatever if there is something I can't model in Carrara, but so far I don't know enough to realize that I should be more frustrated.
I'm in the sam boat. If I knew what the knife tool did, that the scissor tool doesn't, maybe I would care.
You made me fire up Carrara to be sure (don't look so shocked!). You mean the scissors icon in the Vertex Modeler? That's actually Delete...at least in my Carrara 8.1
The Knife tool is completely different. You knife a line across your model in one of the viewports and it will add new points and edges along that plane -- this is extended through the entire mesh. So you can add new geometry very rapidly.
I'd screen scrape LightWave to demo but I'm on my other machine at the moment.
Lest I beat on Carrara too much, I do like that it adds new edges quickly with auto-snaps to 1/4, 1/3 and 1/2 of an existing edge. But adding geometry that way is still orders of magnitude slower than the Knife tool. DAZ really should add Knife to C9... {chokes back a sarcastic snicker}
You made me fire up Carrara to be sure (don't look so shocked!). You mean the scissors icon in the Vertex Modeler? That's actually Delete...at least in my Carrara 8.1
The Knife tool is completely different. You knife a line across your model in one of the viewports and it will add new points and edges along that plane -- this is extended through the entire mesh. So you can add new geometry very rapidly.
I'd screen scrape LightWave to demo but I'm on my other machine at the moment.
Lest I beat on Carrara too much, I do like that it adds new edges quickly with auto-snaps to 1/4, 1/3 and 1/2 of an existing edge. But adding geometry that way is still orders of magnitude slower than the Knife tool. DAZ really should add Knife to C9... {chokes back a sarcastic snicker}
Yes, the knife is closer to what Carrara calls the cut tool under the boolean tab, rather than the scissors tool. The function is sort of like a complex extract along. For objects in which the vertexes are relatively far apart, I have been able to get similar results in three steps, (1) insert a plane or other second object that "knifes" along the area I want a line, (2) use the boolean tool and choose the second icon from the right (all of object 2), and (3) then select the edges of the two halves and use a weld with tolerance.
I don't do this boolean approach very often, and it is problematic when the meshes are dense, but like I said, I don't do it that very often.
Daz, yes, add a "knife" tool to C9, please. And add an automatic weld option to the boolean tool while you are at it.
But why are people frequently using "extract along" inside a dense mesh? I don't get it.
To be honest, I'm a total n00b in the VM. I haven't used half the tools you all are talking about. It's amazing I can get anywhere actually.
Oh my brother from another mother!
I must take LightWave's side when it comes to Booleans. I thought it was neat enough when I saw them at work in Carrara...but...then I saw how self-destructive they are.
Seriously. Do a Boolean subtract in the Vertex Modeler. A cube and sphere say...subtract a bit of the cube with the sphere. BOOM! The sphere is gone. Destroyed! POOF! GONE! WTF? Not so in LightWave! Put an object in a background layer and Boolean-your-heart-out!
One word. "Masochism."
One word. "Masochism."
:lol::lol::lol:
I don't use the boolean tools very often, and I am sure LW's are much better. But, I am getting more stable results than you are reporting. Here are 3 of the 12 boolean options for a sphere and a cube. No poof.
:lol::lol::lol:
I don't use the boolean tools very often, and I am sure LW's are much better. But, I am getting more stable results than you are reporting. Here are 3 of the 12 boolean options for a sphere and a cube. No poof.
It's been awhile, but let me fire up Carrara and LightWave together. I'll try to demonstrate what I mean rather than frothing at the mouth like a madman.
exactly.
Diomede64 I'm not saying Carrara is useless as a modelling tool, I'm saying that without a knife tool it's hamstrung.
Knife tools have nothing to do with a boolean
The closest thing to a knife tool carrara has (as far as I can see) is the vertex add point.
I used to model a lot, most of it box modelling. Haven't for years as I have other things to do.
Knife tool eg. Remember box modelling is starting with eg a cube.
If we start with an ordinary cube where none of the polys are subdivided then we have six faces.
If we were modelling a humanoid we would start by extruding two of the sides and these become arms.
After a while we decide we want to put an edge loop through the middle of the starting cube because we think it needs more geometry.
In carrara to do this
1 I have to make my mesh transparent.
2Then select the add vertices button and
3 then I have to click each edge of the original starting cube to make a loop. Carrara gives me a choice of 1/2 1/4 etc which is a pita (you can probably turn this off?)
4 But when I come to the last two verticies of my loop I have to select the link tool to link them (probably another way of getting them to link?)
5 To link them I have to click one verticie and then the other.
so to put one boring old edge loop I have had to do 9 things (if you include the link tool). If I have a complicated mesh then I will need to rotate the mesh to see what I am doing.
If I were to use a knife tool it would take one click to select the knife tool, and another click to start my cut and then at the same time drag my mouse through the mesh. This would give my four new edges/verticie where I wanted them with one tool and one click.
Sure it's not a major hassle to do it once, but if you are doing any serious box modelling having no knife tool means your work flow won't be as efficient and consequently, in the long term, your modelling skills will be behind someone who has access to a proper set of tools.
Your other alternative is to start with a complicated cube which already has each if it's faces divided - but unless you know what you are doing you won't know how many divisions you will need and you will soon get into a mess and maybe have a moexh which has too much geometry.
My opinion only. I don't really care that Carrara has no knife tool because I am not doing any modelling, so no flame war :) sorry. ;)
Hope this explains it :)
edit I modelled all the stuff in this video with box modelling from memory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EefRx8lGrE#t=11
Can't top this explanation; it is pretty much perfect. Maybe I could do some LW screenshots or something.
I do mildly disagree with head wax about the usefulness of the auto-snapping when adding a vertex. I do like that. However, he is totally right about the serious PITA it is to actually create a complete edge loop this way.
Now that I think of it...you can use Booleans in Carrara to do this quite a bit faster. BUT, it is still vastly slower and more awkward than a proper knife tool.
Can't top this explanation; it is pretty much perfect. Maybe I could do some LW screenshots or something.
I do mildly disagree with head wax about the usefulness of the auto-snapping when adding a vertex. I do like that. However, he is totally right about the serious PITA it is to actually create a complete edge loop this way.
Now that I think of it...you can use Booleans in Carrara to do this quite a bit faster. BUT, it is still vastly slower and more awkward than a proper knife tool.
Thanks. I would like a knife tool very much. With respect, I still think it is over-rated (not the most over-rated of all time). Just my opinion.
Carrara has the ring tool, several extract alongs, the cut tool, and several booleans. Extract along or the ring tool can create an edge loop on a standard shape. This is the most common situation. The cut tool and the booleans can be used to create an edge loop on most non-standard shapes. Not as common, but does come up. There are some situations where the closeness of the vertexes will make a boolean plus weld problematic - rare, but it does come up.
It would be better to have a proper knife tool, and I want one as soon as possible! I don't feel hamstrung, though. Of course, I am not modeling hundreds of objects per month and being paid per item delivered.
That is tremendous! Loved every second of it.
Sorry to sidetrack the thread on the knife tool. I have a suggestion for a focused tutorial on vertex modeling in Carrara, including creating edge loops. See Mmoir's store here at Daz.
http://www.daz3d.com/carrara-modeling-tutorials
That is tremendous! Loved every second of it.
Sorry to sidetrack the thread on the knife tool. I have a suggestion for a focused tutorial on vertex modeling in Carrara, including creating edge loops. See Mmoir's store here at Daz.
http://www.daz3d.com/carrara-modeling-tutorials
Yes. I enjoyed that video as well! Bravo, once again.
Also, I guess that I want a knife tool too. I have had the need on occasion, but had to do things another way.
I also like the mmoir tutorials.
Thanks Diomede64 et Dart, the allusion to Roy as the repair man is a reference to our Roygee, who also did work for the video comps we used to hold at a place called animanon.
diomede64, really love that graphic, interesting way of "looping"
:)
I guarantee that you don't need a knife tool to create great models.
This tutorial of building an iPod was very inspirational and really got me comfortable with the technique - now I build everything except characters and it is a huge, huge, huge benefit. There are multiple techniques that I didn't previously understand the value of, like the Edge Tool, or being able to cut and paste parts of the mesh...
Take a look...
http://youtu.be/kupo67PvdBE