Stop putting heels on everything!

MimicMolly · June 2020

efron_24 said:
huh.. they do not have to wear these heels

you can give the ladies other shoes

You could, but the other shoes won't match. Sometimes these heels have built-in armor that matches the rest of the outfit and can't easily be removed and used over other shoes. Not everyone wants to kitbash for some reason. (IDK why, but that's their business.)

FSMCDesigns said:

lou_harper said:

AMEN! I'm not buying the Age of Heroes bundle because of the bloody heels. Two great characters with useless outfits. It's a bloody joke.

I am all for options, even though I love heels on my women, virtual or not, but this response made me go out and toss this bundle in the cart because I hate seeing PAs penalized like this. If you want to get the point across that you would prefer non heeled options, supporting the PA and then letting them know what your preferences are is a much better option and likely to get you better results than boycotting them.

there is a thing in this community called kitbashing, which means you don't have to use the shoes that come with any outfit.

I almost agree with this, except it's difficult to get in touch with a PA about it at this store. You either have to track them down in the forums or submit a ticket that'll likely get ignored. It's much, much easier to vote with your wallet and skip the products completely.

chris-2599934 · June 2020

Sevrin said:

chris-2599934 said:
The problem with that is, high heels don't just change the angle of the foot, they change the whole posture (not for the better, health-wise, but in a way that's supposedly more attractive):

That's not how it works with Daz Studio. In DS heels solely affect the feet. These are two basic G8Fs. I applied the flat and high-heeled versions of one of Rarestone's poses. The only thing that changes are the feet. Also, Daz rigged the hip joints of F and M the same way, so none of that works the same way it does in real life.

That's kinda my point.

If somebody has properly created a pose of a woman standing in high heels, complete with all the side effects that it has on the way the rest of her body is posed, then converting it to a flat shoes pose is more complex than just changing the angle of the feet - they need to manually undo all the other effects too.

If there is a set of poses that supposedly has both high and low heeled versions, but the only difference between them is the angle of the feet, then one or other of the two versions (or maybe both!) are unrealistic.

SpottedKitty · June 2020

sumirekotani said:

I don't know how many times I've seen this as well, in movies and video games... and I always laugh out loud. "If someone in heels tried a spin kick like that in real life, the only thing she'd accomplish is a broken ankle!"

Either that or hop around on one foot while you struggle to extract the heel from your opponent's anatomy...

ZippyGuitar · June 2020

FSMCDesigns said:

lou_harper said:

AMEN! I'm not buying the Age of Heroes bundle because of the bloody heels. Two great characters with useless outfits. It's a bloody joke.

I am all for options, even though I love heels on my women, virtual or not, but this response made me go out and toss this bundle in the cart because I hate seeing PAs penalized like this. If you want to get the point across that you would prefer non heeled options, supporting the PA and then letting them know what your preferences are is a much better option and likely to get you better results than boycotting them.

there is a thing in this community called kitbashing, which means you don't have to use the shoes that come with any outfit.

Pretty sure we can "penalize" anyone we want. It is our money we're spending. Daz and the PAs know of the debates. It's always been a thing. We can look at it in any way we desire. I look at it as voting with my wallet. If somone feels penalized, then that's their issue, not mine. I didn't buy the Age of Heroes Bundle for those very reasons, plus the nonsense with the lack of male content in that bundle. Should have been called Age of Heroine with a side of man meat. And I'm tired of kitbashing with just a handful of decent looking boots with other outfits. I'm not just tired of high heels with armor. I'm sick of high heels on most female outfits, fantasy or otherwise. The opposite could be said too. There are enough high heels with all these outfits, there's so many options for the heel lovers. They can have far better results kitbashing from other stuff. I will not support that kind of content unless the sale is so dirt cheap I'll buy it for the top and remove everthing else from the Content Directory.

Steel Rat · June 2020

Totally agree with the OP, and with the pose sets. Some PAs have included flat footed poses, which is highly commendable.

I have also refrained from purchasing some clothing sets due to the heels or platform shoes (what is this, the 70s??).

Then you have some awesome sci-fi outfit, and the shoes that AREN'T heels are just drab blobs.

IsaacNewton · June 2020

chris-2599934 said:

Sevrin said:

chris-2599934 said:

If somebody has properly created a pose of a woman standing in high heels, complete with all the side effects that it has on the way the rest of her body is posed, then converting it to a flat shoes pose is more complex than just changing the angle of the feet - they need to manually undo all the other effects too.

If there is a set of poses that supposedly has both high and low heeled versions, but the only difference between them is the angle of the feet, then one or other of the two versions (or maybe both!) are unrealistic.

"If somebody has properly created a pose of a woman standing in high heels, complete with all the side effects that it has on the way the rest of her body is posed..."

There is the rub; IF a PA has properly created a pose. How many do actually go to the trouble of making poses anatomically correct. Not so many I would say.

As a rule of thumb, look at the wrist, arm and shoulder rotations in a pose. If they are not anatomically correct then likely the rest of the pose will probably not be anatomically correct.

Why does G8 even allow "Twist" in the wrist joint? Wrists don't twist! Any twist in the hand happens in the forearm.

So, given that most poses will not be perfectly anatomically correct, it would be very useful if PAs would include a "flat foot" version of each pose. Then at least it would speed up the process of correcting the poses to be close to correct.

Steel Rat · June 2020

supporting the PA and then letting them know what your preferences are is a much better option and likely to get you better results than boycotting them.

How do we let them know? Can't contact them on the site. Can't leave a review.

I contacted a vendor on another site that sells here. Fortunately they were very gracious and didn't complain about the cross-site contact.

Steel Rat · June 2020

Pretty sure we can "penalize" anyone we want. It is our money we're spending. Daz and the PAs know of the debates. It's always been a thing. We can look at it in any way we desire. I look at it as voting with my wallet. If somone feels penalized, then that's their issue, not mine. I didn't buy the Age of Heroes Bundle for those very reasons, plus the nonsense with the lack of male content in that bundle. Should have been called Age of Heroine with a side of man meat. And I'm tired of kitbashing with just a handful of decent looking boots with other outfits. I'm not just tired of high heels with armor. I'm sick of high heels on most female outfits, fantasy or otherwise. The opposite could be said too. There are enough high heels with all these outfits, there's so many options for the heel lovers. They can have far better results kitbashing from other stuff. I will not support that kind of content unless the sale is so dirt cheap I'll buy it for the top and remove everthing else from the Content Directory.

Agree with all of this. Well said.

Steel Rat · June 2020

I almost agree with this, except it's difficult to get in touch with a PA about it at this store. You either have to track them down in the forums or submit a ticket that'll likely get ignored. It's much, much easier to vote with your wallet and skip the products completely.

The problem with skipping the product is that the PA doesn't know why they're not selling. The ability to leave reviews would alleviate that. But most people seem to be against reviews.

watchdog79 · June 2020

@ChallyII - I would love to see the "no heels" option added to outfits as a standard too. Maybe the list of outfits with no/negligible heels below from my own Daz library may help you some?

The store contains some pretty nice and useful outfits. Most are fantasy themed, but I added a handful of Steampunk and sci-fi outfits too, because they can be used in more settings as leather outfits. Or at least parts of them. I am sure I do not have all such outfits, and I may be sleeping on some real gems even in my own collection.

Most of the outfits are for Genesis 8 Female, but I included a number of very nice outfits for Genesis 3 Female too. The outfits range from extremely light and skimpy to full plate.

Honourable mentions (a must have in my opinion, despite the higher heels, even if only for kitbashing):

https://www.daz3d.com/the-legend-for-genesis-3-and-8-female-s
https://www.daz3d.com/rogue-element-outfit-for-for-genesis-8-female-s
https://www.daz3d.com/wind-warrior-outfit-with-dforce-for-genesis-8-females

MaxHancock · June 2020

I agree with this, no hills option, please!
There are a lot of products without high-hills, but many of the sci-fi is with hills, which instantly makes the uniform look like it's right out of the '60s. Nothing is more frustrating than buying a uniform that is perfect for your story, but then you need to remove the shoes and find another that might work better. Sometimes I have to model a shoe that will work. Also, many of the fighting poses don't work with hills

MaxHancock · June 2020

Oh, and the thing is, it's actually harder to make a product with hills than one flat hilled.

Another pet peeve is now every PA is making both shoes as one model. It's rare, but sometimes I only want one shoe to use as a prop.

Prince Wao · June 2020

As the OP wrote, "include two sets of boots - one with heels and one with flats" is the simple solution.

Re 'high heels sell', I never trust such comments unless backed up by data, but as the 'high heels are impractical' for any adventruing outfit theme is age old and keeps recurring - it was one of my first criticisms of some outfits 7 years ago - then it can only be true that two sets of footwear with an outfit would have more buyers.

watchdog79 · June 2020

Prince Wao said:

As the OP wrote, "include two sets of boots - one with heels and one with flats" is the simple solution.

Re 'high heels sell', I never trust such comments unless backed up by data, but as the 'high heels are impractical' for any adventruing outfit theme is age old and keeps recurring - it was one of my first criticisms of some outfits 7 years ago - then it can only be true that two sets of footwear with an outfit would have more buyers.

Could you link any of those for me, preferably Genesis 8, or at least Genesis 3, please? I might be more than willing to add to the buyer count.

nicstt · June 2020

I never buy anything with heels with the exception of Pro bundles; even then, I can leave a Pro bundle to drop in price due to limited value of items in the bundle.

Prince Wao · June 2020

watchdog79 said:

Could you link any of those for me, preferably Genesis 8, or at least Genesis 3, please? I might be more than willing to add to the buyer count.

I totally skipped G3 as when it came out I'd already bought too many G2 products I didn't want to start buying basics again, while re G8 I've not bought any outfits with high heels, but instead go for outfits like Ktarya with falt boots. Re the G2F I love the Storm Queen outfit, but the high heels platform boots are just ludicrously impractical.

https://www.daz3d.com/ktarya-outfit-for-genesis-3-female-s-and-genesis-8-female-s

https://www.daz3d.com/storm-queen-outfit-for-genesis-2-female-s

watchdog79 · June 2020

Prince Wao said:

watchdog79 said:

Could you link any of those for me, preferably Genesis 8, or at least Genesis 3, please? I might be more than willing to add to the buyer count.

I totally skipped G3 as when it came out I'd already bought too many G2 products I didn't want to start buying basics again, while re G8 I've not bought any outfits with high heels, but instead go for outfits like Ktarya with falt boots. Re the G2F I love the Storm Queen outfit, but the high heels platform boots are just ludicrously impractical.

https://www.daz3d.com/ktarya-outfit-for-genesis-3-female-s-and-genesis-8-female-s

https://www.daz3d.com/storm-queen-outfit-for-genesis-2-female-s

Thank you, I have Ktarya in my Wishlist now. I would prefer to see more sturdier armour looking outfits without high heels (or with the choice), though. Outfits like the Legend. Oh well, one can still hope.

The Storm Queen one is for Genesis 2, which I am not too keen on due to the generation gap. I started using DAZ in December 2019, well into Genesis 8, and the generation 8 is my preferred choice.

lou_harper · June 2020

FSMCDesigns said:

lou_harper said:

AMEN! I'm not buying the Age of Heroes bundle because of the bloody heels. Two great characters with useless outfits. It's a bloody joke.

I am all for options, even though I love heels on my women, virtual or not, but this response made me go out and toss this bundle in the cart because I hate seeing PAs penalized like this. If you want to get the point across that you would prefer non heeled options, supporting the PA and then letting them know what your preferences are is a much better option and likely to get you better results than boycotting them.

there is a thing in this community called kitbashing, which means you don't have to use the shoes that come with any outfit.

I support PAs who make useable stuff and interesting, unique things by buying THEIR products. Telling me to buy high-heeled peek-a-boob nonsense, then ask that pretty please make something I can actually use is just some a••-backwards reasoning.

lou_harper · June 2020

chris-2599934 said:

Sevrin said:

chris-2599934 said:
The problem with that is, high heels don't just change the angle of the foot, they change the whole posture (not for the better, health-wise, but in a way that's supposedly more attractive):

That's not how it works with Daz Studio. In DS heels solely affect the feet. These are two basic G8Fs. I applied the flat and high-heeled versions of one of Rarestone's poses. The only thing that changes are the feet. Also, Daz rigged the hip joints of F and M the same way, so none of that works the same way it does in real life.

That's kinda my point.

If somebody has properly created a pose of a woman standing in high heels, complete with all the side effects that it has on the way the rest of her body is posed, then converting it to a flat shoes pose is more complex than just changing the angle of the feet - they need to manually undo all the other effects too.

If there is a set of poses that supposedly has both high and low heeled versions, but the only difference between them is the angle of the feet, then one or other of the two versions (or maybe both!) are unrealistic.

Most women's poses are unrealistic to begin with, heels or no heels. Especially fantasy ones. Female figures can't crawl on the ground without their ass sticking up in the air, do anything or even stand straight without arching their backs.

Gator · July 2020

To be fair, realistic is boring, which is why the vast majority out there aren't doing it. Breastplates wouldn't have big breast bulges for a few reasons (it would be uncomfortable and chafe, and a weak point for the armor. Same reason real male breastplate armor doesn't conform to their pecs and abs).

IMO, once you acknowledge that something like 99% of it isn't realistic in the first place, then heels don't bother me one bit. Pretty much all of it is stylized to some degree.

watchdog79 · July 2020

scott762_948aec318a said:

To be fair, realistic is boring, which is why the vast majority out there aren't doing it. Breastplates wouldn't have big breast bulges for a few reasons (it would be uncomfortable and chafe, and a weak point for the armor. Same reason real male breastplate armor doesn't conform to their pecs and abs).

IMO, once you acknowledge that something like 99% of it isn't realistic in the first place, then heels don't bother me one bit. Pretty much all of it is stylized to some degree.

You may find these videos by Shadiversity interesting and educating:

WendyLuvsCatz · July 2020

Shad needs to waffle less

I enjoy his videos but he is far too verbose

watchdog79 · July 2020

WendyLuvsCatz said:

Shad needs to waffle less

I enjoy his videos but he is far too verbose

Aye, but he still rocks.

TheMysteryIsThePoint · July 2020

This is just a more specific example of the larger general problem:Not everything has to be sexy. It's very difficult to use Daz assets, regardless of the quality, in a fantasy setting because of this. It's hard to have an Elizabeth I-esque character struggling to obtain credibility when she dresses like a wood nymph. But if it didn't sell, PA's wouldn't do it.

Kraven · July 2020

Could you ask the content creators to add both options? It would be some extra work but everyone would be happy because they could use the option they prefer.

Sevrin · July 2020

WendyLuvsCatz said:

Shad needs to waffle less

I enjoy his videos but he is far too verbose

With many Youtubers, they start out just making videos about a thing, and then as time goes on and their channel grows, they spend a lot of time dealing with comments about and reactions to their old videos and whatever they have to deal with being Youtubers and what other Youtubers do and their personal stuff and brand-building and merchandise and "what do you want to see in the future because I like getting money for this" and "the algorithm" and sponsors or absense of sponsors and it goes on. The thing that got you interested in their channel initially gets less attention. Once they start live-streaming fuggedaboudit.

Anyway, a lot of Daz sales are impulse purchases. Sex drives impulse purchases. Even bad sex. Everyone here is old enough to know the facts of life.

And it's not gonna change.

In olden days a glimpse of stocking.
Was looked on as something shocking,
But now, God knows, Anything Goes.

Or, you know, be the change you want to see in the world, or whatever.

caravelle · July 2020

ChallyII said:

[Stop putting heels on everything!] Please?

Seriously, another three fantasy outfits for G8 that I would have bought, except for the high heels. Who wants to fight with a [blessed] sword in heels? Can we not please have at least one outfit for female characters that doesn't have heels? Or include two sets of boots- one with heels and one with flats- or a morph to get rid of them: I'd pay extra!

Why does everything have heels?

This thread is called 'Product Suggestions', right? Well here's my product suggestion: Take any one of the fantasy warrior-woman releases for G8 throughout the figure's entire life-time and make a version without [blooming] heels. Slap on a five dollar mark-up to the original price if you have to. Is it harder to make boots that are flat? I don't know. Ten dollars then- twenty?

Please.

/Rant

I agree. Heels on armour or adventure boots always make me laugh - before I'm getting angry. I don't know how many otherwise nicely done products I passed because of those xxxxxx heels.

AyngelFlyingWestward · July 2020

Ha! This post made me think of the "Into the Badlands" series. I remember one episode of a fight scene with a very high-heeled Minerva then during a cut to a slightly different camera view- no heels, just boots- next cut, back to ridiculously high heels again. I had to rewind to make sure I wasn't seeing things. I wasn't. I guess that's what fantasy means though- being able to do the things that are impossible in the real world (like fight in 5" high stillettos). Anyway, I agree that it sure would be nice to have the option of either/or.

DDCreate · July 2020

I agree with the OP BEYOND his post. Enough heels in general. Enough Glam poses, enough glam make up, enough uber girly clothing. I say that because i like to keep my characters/stories realistic. They talk like people talk, they sit like people sit and they wear clothes that typical people wear. I have to kit bash like crazy, fight epic poke through battles and do tons of post work because so many PA's set up females to be care-free Sex in the City women who flit around from rose petal to rose petal. I know fantasy is a big draw here in various forms but it can be really hard to reflect reality.

There..that's my rant :P

tsroemi · July 2020

DDCreate said:

I agree with the OP BEYOND his post. Enough heels in general. Enough Glam poses, enough glam make up, enough uber girly clothing. I say that because i like to keep my characters/stories realistic. They talk like people talk, they sit like people sit and they wear clothes that typical people wear. I have to kit bash like crazy, fight epic poke through battles and do tons of post work because so many PA's set up females to be care-free Sex in the City women who flit around from rose petal to rose petal. I know fantasy is a big draw here in various forms but it can be really hard to reflect reality.

There..that's my rant :P

I do very much agree, also on the more general level addressed here. I know that sex sells, here as everywhere else, but 1), other things do sell too, and 2), in this time and age, with MeToo and everything, maybe the question of what sells best should not be the only one considered when putting out new products. Apart from this, it‘s often hard for me personally to find poses and clothes to suit my rendering needs, as I create a lot of historic realistic images; and whatever apparently passes for lady-like poses these days surely would have been appropriate only for a very specific group of women in, let‘s say, the 1900s ... If you catch my drift, and not trying to be disrespectful of either those women or the pose creators. But seriously, what is it with all these stuck-out rears and pouting and pushed-out chests, even in so-called everyday pose sets?
Also, I often wish PAs would, like, create two versions of their female tops: one with the cleavage down to the navel as seems to be the preferred option on anything, regardless of genre, and the second one with a simple inset or something of that kind for more realistic clothing needs. It‘s happened so often that I would have really loved to buy a set of clothing but didn‘t because the amount of cleavage was just way too much. Also also, it would be so cool if there were two skirt length options as well, as I‘m really missing more long skirts and dresses in the store. I am aware however that these are more difficult to rig. Shouldn‘t be much of a problem with dforce clothes though I reckon.

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