Scenes with non-interactive props/parts
Steel Rat
Posts: 398
There seems to be a trend with DS scenes where many of the objects in the scene aren't separate objects, or don't have the moving parts one would expect (or have seen in past products).
For example:
The I13 Dean's Office, It looks like a very nice set, and does render nicely. But, none of the objects in the scene can really be interacted with (with the exception of seating),
- The only door in the scene can't be opened
- The blinds on the window can't be manipulated (can't raise them, lower them, close/open..)
- The drawers in the filing cabinets and the desk can't be opened.
- The laptop can't be closed.
- The phone can't be answered.
- The desk chair can't be swiveled or reclined.
Another example, Corner store and poses, another nice-looking set.
- No individual grocery props, to put in the customer's basket.
- Refrigerated section is completely empty, and the doors don't open.
- Ice cream freezer is empty and doesn't open
- Hot Dog grill doors don't open, and no hot dog/bun props to use.
- Soda machine has no individual cup props to use.
- Donut rack doors don't open, no individual donut props to use separately.
- No cups for the coffee machine
- None of the cabinets below the above machines open.
- Magazine rack doesn't have an individual magazine prop a customer can browse.
I've purchased several classroom sets, and NONE of them have a wall clock for which you can change the time.
I could go on with MANY more examples (like windows that are just black squares, doors or hatches that don't open or close, classroom where all the student desks and chairs are one object, etc ad infinitum)
Are these unreasonable expectations on my part? I've been a Poser user since 2004, so I have an extensive library, and can usually find something to use when I need to. But, I shouldn't have to, especially when spending $20+ on a set. In the past, such interactive things were the norm. Why did it stop? I would rather have doors and drawers that open and close than squish morphs for a sofa. I can do the latter with Dforms, I can't use Dforms to open a door.
So frustrating, especially when you don't know these things before you buy.
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Comments
you can rig them and fill with geometry selections weightmapping
annoying but doable, I do it often with sets in one piece I get very cheap from Premier Artists I otherwise avoid who make these things
It varies by PA - some tend to produce static itemse, some are more likely to rig them. Price is usually an indicator, at least for scenes with a comparable number of items. However, some things (such as the blinds you mention) are tricky to handle - Venetian blinds could faiirly easily be given morphs for different tilts, but trying to transition from one angle to another would produce a noticeable narrowing and then widening of the slats; rigging each slat would make for an unwieldy model.
Many of these sets aren't cheap, unless they are on sale. I definitely don't want to try and rig all the things that need to be moveable. It might also break textures and such.
I realize it varies, but the most prolific PAs seem to not want to do the extra work.
Venetian blinds could just be switching morphs, not actually rigging each slat. Such a thing would be 100% better than nothing. But many of the things I mentioned (doors, drawers, individual grocery items) aren't difficult. I've done a teeny tiny bit of modeling in the past, so I know what it takes. The main reason I stopped was because of the pain of UV mapping.
Here's another example, Metro Police Car
It's not as bad as some, but the searchlights do not move (not even selectable), and don't look like the searchlights on a modern police car.
The hood doesn't open. And there is only a dirty texture. The Windows don't go up and down either.
Again, it looks nice, as long as you don't get too close. But for $23, I expect more.
The same PA has a police truck with similar issues. But the worst is the textures on the doors don't line up. See the attached image.
I'm not trying to pick on specific vendors, it just seems like attention to detail has gone downhill over the years. And these are the best police vehicles on the site, as far as I can tell.
A few months ago I made a similar text, comparing the "old clothes" like https://www.daz3d.com/security-genesis-2-male-s with the current G8 clothes pointing at the step backwards when it comes to morphs and versatility.
The answer I got was that for the 3d artists it was simply a matter of weighing up the cost (time) -benefit ratio. Of course that doesn't really make me happy as a user ... but since I can't make those things myself, I have to live with it.
It's frustrating from a consumer perspective, especially when these things aren't spelled out in the product literature.
Clothing I imagine is a much more difficult affair. But making a door that opens and closes, or a drawer that opens and closes, or a laptop lid that opens and closes, is pretty trivial, all things considered. It's one reason why I wish I could leave a review on a product. But I get lambasted for even suggesting such a thing. I guss folks like to live in blissful ignorance.
Honestly, lookng at the first post, I wouldn't expect most of those things, things like rigged blinds, a phone that can be answered, just not something i would expect if I purchased one of those sets. Then again, i am also a modeler and create plenty of my own sets like this and i never rig any of the things I create. So if i was creating a set for DAZ, I wouldn't think about rigging them either (then again, rigging is a whole different skill set than modeling).
Really? You wouldn't expect to be able to open a door, or a drawer? Or to have a character pick up the phone?
The blinds don't need to be rigged, just a switching morph or two to open/close and raise/lower. Such things used to be the norm on a great many products I've purchased over the years. And opening doors and drawers isn't really rigging, it's just making separate objects with pivot points and limits in the right places.
I once made a solar panel object in Hexagon, years ago. It was simple, had the panel, and 4 legs that would pivot in the right spots, with nuts and bolts, so one could put it at different angles, or hide the legs and place it flat on something. I gave it away as a freebie, and that was when I didn't know what I was doing. Don't know whatever happened to it.
I also made a metal hatch, like one might find in a submarine or industrial complex. Pivot at the main hinge, locking lugs that also pivot at the right spot. Gave that away too, it's still on Renderosity. Doesn't tell me when I posted it, but it's got to be close to 10 years ago.
My point is that I know many of these things aren't difficult to do, so I wonder why they don't get done.
Wall clock to change the time
https://www.daz3d.com/modern-wall-clocks
I have that FirstBastion, but you're missing the point. I pay $20+ for a set, I expect some basic functionality. I had no way of knowing when I purchased that certain things wouldn't "work". Buying other things to make up for shortcomings is a rabbit hole.
I have to disagree, Richard. I've made both Raise and Tilt morphs for every venetian blind I've ever made (Room Creator, Home One, and a few other packs), and any distortion in the Tilt is barely noticeable. I'm looking at one now in DS, and I see almost no distortion. In addition, the vertical cords (which run through the slats) move with those slats and it all looks fine.
With the Raise morph, not only do the blinds go up/down, but the controlling cords too. It's really not that difficult.
I'm the exact opposite of FMSCDesigns. I would definitely expect all those things in a product.
In a big office scene I would expect individual props for each item and having office doors and/or windows that open, but not having all drawers rigged or blinds you can raise and tilt.
If the desk or cabinets were sold as "hero props" (individually or as part of a props pack) that would be different, but if the product is sold as a complete scene with dozens of props I would consider it a very nice extra and a good selling point, not expected features.
That actually is the whole point. One product focuses on just the clocks and hence the development time is spent making that clock functional and rigged. That is a reasonable expectation for the $16 pricetag.
The other product is an entire room and therefore the development time is divided between all the component part for that room, which includes the various furnishings including a wall clock that is a background prop at best. All for $20+ dollars.
If you need a functional clock because it matters for your scene and art and storytelling, then you need to purchase the specific item that delivers that specific need. Because that clock product exists already in the store there is certainly less need to reinvent that wall clock over and again.
You might not agree but in the end it is a development decision made during the design process. I'll use one of my sets as an example.
I made a gas station. Now that gas station has gas pumps. Old fashioned ones. There are not alot of gas pumps in the store, so I thought that the need for functioning dials on the pump was a useful function so I included them.
I didn't put a wall clock in the scene. But if I had it would at best be a tertiary item. I rather spent time on building the outhouse with a hinged door. It is always about choices and the amount of time that can be spent on a particular product.
It's not good or bad, it is just reality. It's not a shortcoming of the product when a decision gets made, it is just a practical decision of limited time resources.
snip
And a really wonderful, versatile outhouse it is, FirstBastion! I own the product and it is very, very useful - as are most of your products. You would be very surprised to see all the places I integrated your outhouse .... Thank you for the good job! For me, you are not part of the people who should feel addressed by the justified criticism of "Steel Rat".
Maclean gets it. All his/her stuff is awesome! Even the really old Poser stuff.
Firstbastion, you're concentrating on the clock. What about doors? There's only one in the scene and it's non-functional. There aren't dozens of drawers and doors, only a few. And we're not talking about rigging a figure. At most its one bone per drawer, if you're even going to use bones. The drawers could be separate simple objects.
By your reasoning, FirstBastion, I'd be replacing most of the items in the scene (still can't get around that door, though) which makes it kind of pointless to buy the scene in the first place.
I'm not trying to start a war here, just letting you know how I feel as a customer. I get where you're coming from, but honestly for me it would be a matter of pride. Do I want to sell a marginally useful product?
Firstbastion, I'm looking at your College Dorm set, and you have this in the description: "The doors and the windows are functional and open and close. The drawers on the desk open and close individually as well. The books, paperbacks and binders are also included."
That's a product I would buy, not just for those functions, but it would be a factor high on the decision tree.
Maclean typically sells what I consider "hero props". And I agree, they're pretty awesome.
It's not a matter of pride, it's a matter of business. The question for quite a few PAs who do this full time is "do I want to pay the bills?"
There's a limit to the time a PA can spend on a single product and still get a meaningful return. Do they spend time creating individual drawers to earn maybe a few additional sales (and get other people complain that the desk uses too much resources), or do they spend that same time working on a new product that will bring them the money they need to pay for their food or rent?
When you don't depend only on that income you can afford to spend all the time you want perfecting an item. When that's your main income source, not so much.
There should always be a functioning door on a room. If it is missing completely that would be an example of a design flaw, because it is reasonable to expect a door to enter a room.
I try to make functional and useful products, but I also understand if another PA decides not to provide that functionality. It's a design choice and they have to live with their choice.
In the end, You as the customer have the power to choose which type of product you want to purchase, and with a 30 day return policy you always have the choice to return the product that does not meet your expectations. And you should take advantage of that. Be discerning in your product choices.
a diner with ceiling fans that do not rotate was one example I attacked with the geometry editor and exported and imported bits at the zero axis
to me there was no excuse to not just parent them
So you'd rather just crank out substandard stuff. I don't get that. You're going to get more sales if you've put in the effort.
Judging from Maclean's response, it's both.
I wonder how DAZ would feel if I returned half the products I bought. I've returned a few, things that simply didn't work as advertised, or had serious shortcomings that I couldn't work around.
Not having every drawer and accessory rigged in a scene is not "sub standard", because guess what, having them is not the standard.
I'm not saying content creators shouldn't produce quality stuff or include details, just that they have to draw a line somewhere and prioritize where their efforts need to go.
It's a trade off. Sometimes spending more time on a product to add even more bells and whistles is counter productive business wise, because a lot of customers are not willing to pay extra for them, and though they might get you a few more sales (and I really mean "a few", because the market here is pretty small) there are not enough of them to pay for all that extra time.
It used to be the standard, and for artists like Mclean and FirstBastion, it still is. I've been buying stuff here and other places since 2004, and I can definitely say the effort for a lot of things has gone downhill.
And again, many of the things I've mentioned don't requre rigging, they only require keeping items separate. I bought one living room set that had a little piece of artwork sitting on the coffee table. And it was part of the table. Can't even make it invisible. Instead I'd have to futz around in the geometry editor and hopefully do what the PA should have done. They obviously modeled it separately, why not keep it separate? To me, that's substandard. It's someone not caring.
I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it.
FirstBastion. Upstream you said "I try to make functional and useful products". Why? If it's not cost effective, why do it?
The PA who made those particular "old clothes" has commented elsewhere that it wasn't worth the time invested in making it. PAs go by what sells, which isn't normally the kind of thing requested on the forums.
There's always a tradeoff. If I make a desk product, the drawers will be modelled and open. But if the desk is more 'background' to a larger set, it might not be worth the time. It's not just rigging the drawer - you also need to model and texture the full drawer, including the inside and the rails (maybe even the wheels it rolls on if they'd be visible).
Doors will always open in my sets since you can't just replace those easily with a specialised version (Often I'll include a rigged locking mechanism too (in my Tornado Bar: Fight Bar set (link in sig ;) ), the keyholes rotate and the bolt moves in and out, etc - but did that increase sales enough? Cutting out a hole in the door (and doorpost) for the lock makes modelling, uv-mapping, and texturing all take longer).
If you need a fully functional, good for closeups, etc, etc prop, then you'd probably need to buy that prop (separately) as someone will than have put all the effort into it. If you're buying a large set, the props might only be there to fill the room as background to your render. My latest set has a torch - but modelling fire is tricky (time-consuming) to get right - I would certainly recommend someone using DZFire's torch product to replace it if they have the money.
I like to have versatile props in the sets since it's better for making sequential art, but it's not always going to increase sales enough to offset the time spent.
So while I certainly want to take pride in making a product work well, there's a limit on how much can be included to keep the price at something people would pay.
It has always varied from PA to PA - I can't find the details now but one of my early purchases (I think the SKU might have been just into the thousands if the one I found in the library was it - the image didn't look familair though) was a set of furniture for a vcenetian room, or a boudoir(or maybe one of each) and all of the elements were static props, no opening doors or morphs on the soft parts.