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I never quite sure how to refer to myself, so I think I'll just say "not as good as you" :)
I think most of the points have been made already: you are what you and your (potential) client decide: if they (and that includes you as your own client) like your work then you are an artist/animator. If you don't believe you are a 3D artist how do you think you'll convince your clients you are? Oh, and by the way, you ARE a 3D artist in my opinion!
I only want to second what others said... Art is subjective. Haters gonna hate. Judge your works, not what others say.
Simple, but wise quotes. We live in the XXIst century. SOMEBODY HAD to invent wheel before us, but it certainly doesn't mean people can't drool over cars, metaphorically speaking. Don't waste your time on worrying about hatespeak. Instead, create and learn - judging from your site, you've already done a lot and you're surely on a good way towards even greater things!
WOW so many great responses and it is greatly appreciated. Thank you all.
HeraldOfFire - The work I have seen on these and many other forums proves to me that DAZ is a powerful option for artists. Seeing what is being done with it is what got me back into creating 3D artwork.
ruphuss - Very good words to keep in mind. I guess its that when trying to transition to creating art for others I need to consider their needs.
RawArt - Its fantastic to get your perspective, as I am in awe of your skills and talents. Your models (and the work of all the great DAZ provider) are very valuable to people like me who are horrible at modeling. I wish I could buy them all. This has led to my attempt to market my work to raise funds to continue financing my passion for 3D and keeping my accountant happy. =) I have been taking your skills for granted and this led me to consider how I market myself. I would hate to offend skilled people like you by lumping my skills in with yours. I normally don't tell people what software I use unless they ask, the feedback I have been getting is that they bring it up as a reason my skills are lacking. Out of curiosity, what programs do you use to create your products?
jestmart - Thanks for the honest feedback. The lack of polish on my videos has been a major concern of mine. All my videos where created in my attempt to do an animation or still image a day over the last year. Most took less than a few hours and I am afraid that it shows in the final products. I learned a lot doing them, but I also have been using that excuse to justify my lack of skill. For instance both point you bring up shine a light on this. The spaceship and the giant at the end of the "unit 2" animation really show my lack of skill versus the great motion capture I purchased for the soldier. The "Furbie" hair problems highlights my lack of skill in using the hair simulation in Carrara, (plus it was crashing my machine when I tried to apply it to all the characters). I didn't blame these problems on the software since it is my skills that are to blame. Do you think this lack of polish means I shouldn't use them on my site?
SimonJM - It's funny you say that, as I look at your art and get depressed thinking "I wish I could create art like yours". Since art is so subjective, we probably shouldn't compare ourselves to other artists and just use their work as inspiration to improve. Your point of "you are what you and your (potential) client decide:" is what led me to start this thread. Now that I started trying to market my skills, I am finding potential clients reluctant to use my services. It seems that my skills aren't as marketable as I suspected. It good to know what they actually think.
cecilia.robinson - Thanks for the inspirational words. I will continue to learn as there is so much more to learn.
Thanx for the compliments.
The software I use is mostly photoshop for the textures, and clean up the seams in bodypaint. I make my morphs in zbrush.
There are various other programs i use depending on what I need, but those are the key ones.
Rawn
Thanks for the info RawArt,
I tried altering textures for some figure in Photoshop, but the seams where always a problem.
...HeraldOfFire , the comment about the poser nude just made my day. :lol:
Would you like some help on that? I admit I altered V4 Elite Texture Lana to fit SnowSultan's Smacky and now I use it pretty much each time I need an African skin. But I didn't use PhotoShop.
...the ease of software use is another issue.
I tried to study CG back in the 80s and gave up because back then you basically had to write code to do anything. Didn't feel very intuitive to someone like myself who came from a traditional art background. However, I still admire these pioneers as were it not for them, we wouldn't have programmes that we use today like Poser, Daz Studio, Carrara, and Vue.
Just because software may be easy to learn doesn't make it "inferior" (as some may feel) for I believe it allows one to focus more directly on the creative aspect. However, there are times the opposite view does seem to hold sway. Case in point, Blender. Yes it's free, yes, it's powerful, but just learning how to handle and become confident with it's UI alone is analogous to doing a free climb on the face of El Capitan while wearing mittens and galoshes. During Last Year's Blender Conference, Andrew Price (the "Blender Guru") advanced a proposal to refine the UI to make it less cumbersome and cryptic. The idea was shot down with the head of the Blender community effectively saying that attracting new users was not a priority. Some of the comments and replies to the proposal that I read from longtime "Blenderites" (who consider themselves "professionals") would have made a drunken sailor look like a Sunday school teacher. In some ways it seems (and has even been voiced so by a few Blender users I have conversed with) that learning the UI is some sort of "Rite of Passage" or "initiation" akin to joining an exclusive fraternity.
Sadly, that kind of thinking does little to win people over.
In any artform, there are basic concepts techniques one must learn, whether in the traditional or digital media. However, CG presents a unique challenge because the hardware and software are constantly changing, sometimes seemingly "overnight" compared to the tools used in say, oil painting or traditional sculpting.
When I built my workstation a couple years ago it seemed so powerful compared to what I used to work on. Now, it seems so far behind what I am seeing today: twelve core hyperthreading processors, GPUs with over 1,000 CUDA cores & 2, 3, 4 GB of VRAM (shoot, my old notebook only had 4GB of RAM), and MBs that can support up to 64 GB in Quad Channel mode. For what I paid for 12GB RAM I can now get double that and have change left over. Crikey, the new Mac Pro is about the size of a 2# coffee can and (literally) will run circles around my "beast" which is in a full size tower case.
Painters didn't have to be so concerned about their canvas, paints, and brushes (unless they were worn out) needing to be constantly updated to stay "current" with the media like CG often requires. My system is only about 2 years old and seems an antique compared to what some others even here on the forums are using today (a number of the components I used are no longer even available). Does that stop me from working? No as for now, the system is still quite capable at handling whatever Daz & Carrara will throw at it. It does however mean I still have to deal with some limits, so the challenge is to find ways to work around them - and that is where creativity comes into play.
As to animation, Carrara is good but alas is incapable of what a studio like Pixar can pull off. For example, in the film Brave, just to create Merida's wild mane of hair and make it move like it does took almost three years of development which included writing custom software and building a custom system. None of us have those kinds of resources available to us. While I studied "classic" animation in college, I have yet to even begin considering it in the digital media as I am still learning how to work with Daz figures in Carrara since none of the shaders or shaping/morph tools I am so used to using in Daz Studio are available to me. I also have the PLE version of Vue Infinite (the full version of which was used in the production of the film Avatar).
The best independent CG animated work I have seen is a short entitled Ruin (which can be viewed on YouTube) which was primarily created with Modo and Lightwave. The scenery, the motion, the effects are all amazing, even down to the heat signature from the drone's engines (no more spoilers though). However this took many, many "person-hours" using high end software that cost multiple 1,000s, and required a number of extra plugins (commercial and free) as well. Doing animation on this level is not an easy task and usually requires a team working together as well as access to a render farm.
Would you like some help on that? I admit I altered V4 Elite Texture Lana to fit SnowSultan's Smacky and now I use it pretty much each time I need an African skin. But I didn't use PhotoShop.
Thanks for the offer. It would be fantastic to experience what you do. I skipped V4 and have been using Genesis since I returned to 3d work.
I was mainly trying to add tattoos and it always seemed they needed to be where the seams were ( its strange that a tattoo on an arm seems to have to be at the exact point between fron and back). Lining them up was always tricky. I used to love Painter 3d to do this, but that software is long gone.
I am thinking it's time to try it again now that I understand things better.
Kyoto Kid
You make many great points and observations.
Blender does seem very powerful, but it didn't seem very user friendly. So I went to Carrara because I had played with it from the Ray Dream days thru Infini-D and up until Carrara 5. I used Poser from version 1 up to version 4 . Then I lost interest in 3d because I never had a computer that could handle what I wanted to do. I came back to 3d because of DAZ studio being free and I had a lot of old Poser content. When I learned Carrara could use that content too, I went back to Carrara and haven't looked back. Also getting a modern PC helped in that it now doesn't take days to render what I can now render in minutes.
Sadly Carrara has it problems, and isn't a priority to DAZ. Thus third party are reluctant to spend the time to improve its short comings. I was having a lot of fun with PySwarm to create large crowd animations, but he gave up on Carrara because of it low user base.
The biggest thing I have learned in getting back into 3d animation again is that you see why it takes many people to make a movie. The hair, make up, lighting, the prop department, the costume designers, the set dressers, ect. Sure you could do it yourself but it would take you a long time and would always look inferior. I mean you definitely don't want me applying your make up or cutting your hair. =)
That's why the DAZ content producers are a god send. I would still need these specialists if I was using high end software. It's just that using these lower cost tools allows me to make my mistakes without large costs. There will probably be a point where I I have to move on to more advanced products, but as a beginner these products are a great place to start and work for most situations.
I do not care what any other person may think of your work. In my point of view you are a Professional Artist and the work you have posted to your site is of Pro quality, whatever you decide to market the art and yourself as, it is fantastic work.
I don't see anything wrong with the site or promoting yourself and making some money. If your clients are happy, then you are doing a good job. Poser and Daz Studio exist so people do not have to model each figure from scratch to make one scene. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could get anything done if they had to do that for every single thing all the time. People that are so good they can make models to sell should be urging you on. Its good business. If their customers are doing well and profiting then they will continue to be good customers with a little more money to spend. I think you are doing a great job and its inspiring for a newbie like me to see that this can be a source of income, not just a hobby. I cook pretty good. I do not go out and buy live chickens or cows on the hoof either. And yet I'm able to cook a nice meal. Why are people not raging at their wives that its not cooking if you don't have to pluck the chicken???? Okay, I've made my little tiny point.
Ohhhhh.... Don't even get me started, lol.
If you read this http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/9571/P360/#362916, you'll understand why the image I've attached "isn't art," and why I think 3D-snobs who dismiss render art are all ridiculous and insecure.
You are AN ARTIST, or illustrator, or whatever else you would like to call yourself. Your work is of professional quality. You use stock models, but that doesn't make you "not an artist." You wouldn't yell at a photographer because they didn't design and construct the buildings they photograph.
The computer has made it where you can create art without picking up a brush. You can create music without being able to read a note of it, much less master a traditional instrument. Its still art if it looks goods and fulfills a need. Its still music if if you can dance to it. And maybe people have cellphones and apps instead of road atlases in their cars. You've invested you time and your money in learning to do something. Your work is making your clients very happy. The world is changing. I'm sad to report that art is an area where a lot of rubbish is sold to people merely because they buyer believed in the quality of the artists' credentials or background or upbringing and convinced themselves that that crap really was worth an outrageous sum of money. Frankly, I always thought Warhol was better at marketing himself as an artist than he was at creating actual art quality works. But he lived a charming life and his stuff generates a lot of money. And yet to me, I was most impressed with the dishes. In short, a big part of the art world is mudslinging. Artists can feel like they must devalue the work of another to puff themselves up. The average person doesn't invest in art because they think is going earn more than a 20% return and be a better investment than stock in a blue-chip company. The average person is more sophisticated, they just want to know if it works on their wall and if they will enjoy looking at it day after day. The peasants wouldn't spend a nickle on some of the museum pieces the elite get in bidding wars over. I think its a case of the Emperor Having no clothes. Art is subjective and some people can you ocean front property in Arizona. If you don't want to be a snob about it and you sell good work to people who only care about the work and not putting on airs, YOU GO!
Professionals use the most viable tools available to them within their budget scope to accomplish their desired outcomes.
Anyone that scoffs over particular methods is rather questionable and being a bit of an elitist jerk.
Especially if they are coming from an angle that dismisses any work done using any other means than their own preferred method.
Your site is looking great btw!
Jaderail - Thanks for nice comments and inspiration.
RitaCeleste - Great point, we all rely on others to do many things that we can't do alone. The finished product isn't diminished because we needed help.
KaribousBoutique - Very interesting thread. That is crazy that people don't consider your image original art. It is amazing in so many ways. Fantastic composition, color, emotional impact - isn't that what original art all about?
I know professionals who use Poser and DAZ Studio as just more tools with anything else they use. It's what makes the job easiest and quickest to do. The final result is the only thing that counts.
I talked with pros back in the 90s who used stock models, for gosh sakes, because it saved time!
Illustrators have used models and worked from photos for ages. It doesn't make what they do any less of an art form or the final result not art. Look at Norman Rockwell, Gil Elvgren and others. They all worked from photos.
Disney artists rotoscoped at times from film of animals and people, even back in the Golden Age.
VFX pros do use canned effects of stock fire, water, clouds, etc. You use what you can to get the job done quickly and to make it look good.
If you have the luxury of multi-million dollar budgets, then you can roll your own, but otherwise it's pointless. I've seen Video Copilot footage in lots of commercials and TV shows lately.
For decades, professional radio commercials have used canned sfx. Nobody in his right mind would try to create his/her own. Movies and TV shows as well.
You don't have to re-create the wheel.
It reminds me of some voice over people who make it sound like you have to have an engineer, big studio, receptionist, etc., in their pitches, when I know you don't and prove them wrong all the time with my voice over work. I know many voice over guys who have a small setup with a computer and a corner of a room or closet, adequately sound treated and they are doing just fine, thank you, as well.
Your website looks good, and if clients are happy and paying you, you are a professional. Prove the naysayers wrong.
Thanks for the many great points Keven
RitaCeleste - Lots of great points. Also, since I am in Arizona we need some beach front property to deal with the heat.
Razor 42 - I agree that we need to use any viable method to get the desired outcomes and that to limit that us to limit your creativity. BTW: great products and gallery, your a big part in making us all look better =)
If he's not looking to hire you, his opinion on what you should market yourself as doesn't count. Consider: you're effectively asking if you should take the advice of a self-admitted rival in the market and remove yourself from the market.
When it comes to art, I'm a hobbyist, and have no professional ambitions. The only art job I ever applied to was explicitly one looking for a Poser artist. But I think I do have something to say about this "original work" notion due to my primary profession and training. I'm a programmer. I've worked on a lot of esoteric projects in my career and in my schooling, many of which have had some connection to graphics. I've written code to read in graphics and display them on screen, both from pre-existing formats and custom formats. I've written code to calculate the appearance of light reflecting off a three-dimensional object. I've written code to interpret, create, and manipulate 3D objects. Now, these projects may not be quite as complex as the corresponding parts of DazStudio, Blender, etc. (with the possible exception of the time I wound up designing a system for describing the skeletal structure of dinosaurs), but add them all together, and I've done most of the work for creating a modeling and rendering system. In pieces, sure. But it means that I know I could create such a program if I wanted to devote the time to it. So... if something is "more artistic" if it takes "more work"... wouldn't that imply that I should have to create my own modeling and rendering software to do anything at all in 3D? After all, I could do it. So if I don't do it, I'm doing less work than I could do... which by the argument of the "art means work" crowd means the very same image is automatically "less art" if I don't.
That way lies insanity. Being on the balance a sane man, I have to reject the argument. Art is the result, not the process.
One final note. Many of the Renaissance masters are now known to have used camera obscura to project the sources of their paintings onto the canvas... which is to say, their paintings started out with tracing. And yet they're still masterpieces of art.
It's funny, because if a painter uses people or props as references, if a graphic designer or illustrator uses stock imagery, then that's no different than using pre-made content n our 3D illustrations. After all, it's not like any of us who are really striving to be great at this are merely rendering stock scenes.
Love this.
...I still love this work.
For what I understand, the question isn't much about art or being professional but rather about "marketing"
In my view you only need to define the services you want to give and advert yourself as whatever you want in order to get customers in the field you defined
If you market yourself as illustrator or animator the only thing that counts is whether you can give any potential customer what they want
If you can, that is fine , otherwise you will eventually have some problem with the customer
Business is not necessarily art (it is often the opposite)
I have to admit I always thought Warhol was a product of hype and the times more than a great artist.
My main gripe in this area is Damien Hirst and his platinum skull - a very expensive item, basically a skull made from platinum and imbedded with diamonds. It's a Damien Hirst item. Guess what part he had in it's making. Yup, he drew the design and did NOTHING of the actual work of physically creating it.
I recently got contracted to do storyboarding for an advertising firm. They chose my "pre-used" content combined with photos, over a talented illustrator (a good friend of mine) who did everything from scratch. So, all that matters is the end result. Better yet I could do the job 4 times faster and meet their deadlines. I could give them the exact shots they were looking for and if I had to adjust the camera angle or lighting, I didn't have to illustrate from over:) Just a quick re-render, apply some filters in post work and done. Now he also wants to get into using Studio :cheese: Bottom line, it doesn't matter what you use. If the client likes it and you provide what they are looking for, then that is all that matters.
I used Lana as it was shipped with DS and Genesis likes V4 UV-maps :). I don't do anything special - just import the diffuse maps to PowerPoint, then alter them to an extent that meets my needs, save as JPGs and load the original skin, then replace diffuse maps with my own. The trick is to remember the exact values of what you changed. So if I increase the temperature by 100 Celsius degrees on face maps, I have to increase it by the same quantity on limbs and torso maps as well. A quick render with my Dark Lana is here: http://fav.me/d7f4n9f.
Regarding tattoos, I think, if they are normal tattoos you inject, adding them to bump maps and perhaps specularity maps would be a good idea. We're discussing making bump maps in this thread now: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/27495/#632668. Join us please!
Like Morgan said. Do you create pictures? Then you're an illustrator! Whereas the quality of what can be seen on your site adds you're an artist too. You can't please everybody and if someone wants to complain, he or she will no matter what you do.
Just my 2¢ on tattoos
There would never be a reason to add tattoos to bump or spec maps. A tattoo should not "bump" the skin.
I have made a tattoo tutorial on deviant art designed to give a fairly realistic representation of how tattoo's actually look.
http://rawart3d.deviantart.com/art/Tattoo-on-skin-texturing-329660194
Rawn
WOW so many great responses, thanks to everyone
Morgan R. Lewis - Good points and I agree that time to produce a piece isn't a way to judge the artistic nature of piece. That is unless your are being paid by the hour =)
TheWheelMan - I agree totally. The models we purchase allow us to create scenes with our own unique perspectives.
Kyoto Kid - The work is amazing. Very inspiring.
Denny L - Agreed, MegonNoel's statement is dead on right.
Takeo.Kensei - Thanks for noticing that my question is primarily about marketing. I was afraid that I was insulting other working artists by using terms they seem passionate about. It may just be Semantics , but some seem to take it very seriously. i didn't want to start out my marketing by alienating potential clients. Since I was trying to transition from personal work to commercial work, artistic needs are usually outstripped by budget and deadline. It's not about what I like, it's what the client will be satisfied with based on their needs.
SimonJM - This get's to the crux of my marketing question. I have a very talented friend who illustrates movie posters for big name Hollywood movies, but has a hard time selling his personal work to galleries because they only want art from known artists. I would say more people see his poster work than most known artists will see in a lifetime, but its seems to come down to name recognition.
Zev0 - Thanks for the input and all the great products you provide us. I agree that if the client's happy that is what matters. I started out trying to be a pen and paper illustrator but quickly found that I couldn't meet the real world deadlines client's demanded. The revision process was the real killer, I may have been able to do the work, but since I couldn't make revisions in a quick manner, I lost out to those who could. No truer words have been said than your " If the client likes it and you provide what they are looking for, then that is all that matters." I didn't want to insult artist like you by marketing myself in the same category. =)
BTW - great examples
cecilia.robinson - Good points about how art shouldn't be judged by how much the artist contributes to all the material used in the process. That is an interesting technique. I would have never thought of doing it that way. It's always fascinating to see how other do things. It helps us get outside our bubble and see that there are many ways to do things. Thanks also for the link to the thread. Also, I agree with you and Morgan's point. I think I was just being a little thin skinned and shouldn't have took the words too personal.
RawArt - Thanks for sharing the knowledge, it helps us all get better.
Yeah, the old "Catch 22" - in order to get a job, etc., you need experience. But to get experience you need a job ... rinse, repeat :( I have a friend who is a self-published author. His work is, in my opinion, as worthy as many a thing I have read but unless or until he is 'picked up' his sales will be in single digits.