Step-by-Step: Using the new PBR Skin on Genesis 8

plasma_ring

melissastjames said:

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a franken-skin I put together (mostly Babina 8)(I only updated the head, so please ignore any funk in the neck on the right) - 

And here is the HDRI I used in case anybody wants to replicate the lighting - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=studio_small_03

This is a really fantastic comparison shot. If I had to summarize the difference between the shaders, I feel like the PBR shader effect has more visual depth and definition. 

Catherine3678ab

Daventaki said:

@Catherine3678ab  If im remembering correctly I think you have to have 4.15 for the shader to work properly.

I seem to recall seeing that once too. Was hoping it would work, worth a try ;-) Sometimes when we're told we have to upgrade, we do "for full benefits" of whatever it is they've new and improved ... sometimes what will work without upgrading is fine by me. Genesis 8.1 and the FFC seem to be working okay.

Going by the comparison image renders in this thread, I think on my little ol' laptop I don't need to worry about upgrading D/S for a Shader Preset. Hard pressed to see much if any improvement {keeping in mind I do have vision problems too}.

Sabby

Catherine3678ab said:

 My problem is this shader does not display anything but a smooth white shell in my D/S4.12.

However I did throw it into Shader Mixer ... I did manage to add a cutout opacity dial HOWEVER I also deleted something which I know not what it does {because it became a loner when I added the cutout}. The new shader has some overriding features though because the proper name for the cutout did not come through and I'm rather suspicious that some of the other dials may not be quite right. But I mention all this because maybe somebody else could get such an item working. If they do, remember to rename the Shader, Save the new Shader, and then save out desired Shader presets.

I believe you have to be using 4.15  

latexluv13_65ebcf7300

I'm having trouble with this new shader. I need to see screenshots of the shader with maps in place so I can figure out where they are supposed to go. But so far from what I've seen, the higher the transluscency the more red the skin renders and I haven't found a way to counter that. So could someone please post screenshots?

ALLIEKATBLUE

melissastjames said:

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a franken-skin I put together (mostly Babina 8)(I only updated the head, so please ignore any funk in the neck on the right) - 

And here is the HDRI I used in case anybody wants to replicate the lighting - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=studio_small_03

Do you have any of the SSS channels enabled? This is very lovely

MelissaGT

latexluv13_65ebcf7300 said:

I'm having trouble with this new shader. I need to see screenshots of the shader with maps in place so I can figure out where they are supposed to go. But so far from what I've seen, the higher the transluscency the more red the skin renders and I haven't found a way to counter that. So could someone please post screenshots?

Not necessarily true...my example above is at a translucency value of .9

MelissaGT

ALLIEKATBLUE said:

melissastjames said:

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a franken-skin I put together (mostly Babina 8)(I only updated the head, so please ignore any funk in the neck on the right) - 

And here is the HDRI I used in case anybody wants to replicate the lighting - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=studio_small_03

Do you have any of the SSS channels enabled? This is very lovely

Yes, both are using a translucency value of .9. SSS settings are somewhat tweaked but similar to what you would see on a base G8 figure, which is also the same as V8.1 I build out custom sss maps that have actual "meat"...which is the big factor in the look. Just using a lightened copy of the diffuse map doesn't do it...not sure why Daz hasn't caught on to that yet. Skin is translucent, so you should be able to see what's under it.

Kharma

melissastjames said:

ALLIEKATBLUE said:

melissastjames said:

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a franken-skin I put together (mostly Babina 8)(I only updated the head, so please ignore any funk in the neck on the right) - 

And here is the HDRI I used in case anybody wants to replicate the lighting - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=studio_small_03

Do you have any of the SSS channels enabled? This is very lovely

Yes, both are using a translucency value of .9. SSS settings are somewhat tweaked but similar to what you would see on a base G8 figure, which is also the same as V8.1 I build out custom sss maps that have actual "meat"...which is the big factor in the look. Just using a lightened copy of the diffuse map doesn't do it...not sure why Daz hasn't caught on to that yet. Skin is translucent, so you should be able to see what's under it.

Would you be able to post a shot of your settings so others can replicate ?

lilweep

Catherine3678ab said:

gerster said:

Some questions about the new shader.

The old shader is called !Iray Uber Base.

The new one is Daz Iray PBR Skin.

After doing some reasearch, for my understanding BOTH shaders are PBR and Uber shaders.

Uber seems to mean only that this shader simplified, we are using these handy controls instead of nodes.
While PBR is the phyiscally render methods.

Is this correct?
 

No. The Daz Iray PBR Skin is an extra Shading Preset in its own folder. !Iray Uber Base etc. still exist ;-)

 

i dont think you read their post poperly? they were talking about the concepts of Uber and PBR more generally.

im too lazy too google what Uber and PBR mean in depth, but a quick search suggests these definitions gerster provided above are more or less correct.

Catherine3678ab

lilweep said:

Catherine3678ab said:

gerster said:

Some questions about the new shader.

The old shader is called !Iray Uber Base.

The new one is Daz Iray PBR Skin.

After doing some reasearch, for my understanding BOTH shaders are PBR and Uber shaders.

Uber seems to mean only that this shader simplified, we are using these handy controls instead of nodes.
While PBR is the phyiscally render methods.

Is this correct?
 

No. The Daz Iray PBR Skin is an extra Shading Preset in its own folder. !Iray Uber Base etc. still exist ;-)

 

i dont think you read their post poperly? they were talking about the concepts of Uber and PBR more generally.

im too lazy too google what Uber and PBR mean in depth, but a quick search suggests these definitions gerster provided above are more or less correct.

Yeah I think you're correct. It's Friday, long week ...

MelissaGT

Kharma said:

melissastjames said:

ALLIEKATBLUE said:

melissastjames said:

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a franken-skin I put together (mostly Babina 8)(I only updated the head, so please ignore any funk in the neck on the right) - 

And here is the HDRI I used in case anybody wants to replicate the lighting - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=studio_small_03

Do you have any of the SSS channels enabled? This is very lovely

Yes, both are using a translucency value of .9. SSS settings are somewhat tweaked but similar to what you would see on a base G8 figure, which is also the same as V8.1 I build out custom sss maps that have actual "meat"...which is the big factor in the look. Just using a lightened copy of the diffuse map doesn't do it...not sure why Daz hasn't caught on to that yet. Skin is translucent, so you should be able to see what's under it.

Would you be able to post a shot of your settings so others can replicate ?

See attached...

Also note that I built my own sss maps, so that definitely makes a difference as to the depth of the skin. These individual settings are also somewhat different than the settings I use with the Uber shader, particularly dual lobe as that seems to act completely different than the dual lobe Uber shader. 

Kharma

@melissastjames thanks for the screenshots, I will test your settings and see what I get. obviously will be a bit different as you made your own maps for SSS.  In your render on the PBR shader, there is a slight shadowing or dark lines around the nostrils, do you know what is causing that?

MelissaGT

Kharma said:

@melissastjames thanks for the screenshots, I will test your settings and see what I get. obviously will be a bit different as you made your own maps for SSS.  In your render on the PBR shader, there is a slight shadowing or dark lines around the nostrils, do you know what is causing that?

I honestly don't know what is causing it or how to get rid of it or if it's supposed to be that way or if that's supposed to be more natural. I don't even know if I like it or if it just stands out to me because I'm not used to it. Personally, I think I might prefer the Uber shader, particularly because the Uber shader offers scatter and transmit settings, something that I do use because I think it gives more of that green/blue tinted undertoning to skin. In particular, check under the eyes and you'll see what I'm getting at. I haven't looked into why the eyes are reflecting brighter on the left...I think it might have to do with the moisture settings not copying over from when I dropped V8.1's eyes in. 

Here's another comparison, this time in more stylized lighting (this is the Energy Flow set by Fabiana, and I use it a lot) - 

Zilvergrafix

Crescent said:

You might want to specify that IM00013176-42_DefaultResourcesforDAZStudio415.zip is needed as well. I didn't realize that the latest DS had an additional resource .zip to be downloaded, which is where the PBR shader is.

Thank you!  

 

LuckBe

melissastjames said:

Kharma said:

@melissastjames thanks for the screenshots, I will test your settings and see what I get. obviously will be a bit different as you made your own maps for SSS.  In your render on the PBR shader, there is a slight shadowing or dark lines around the nostrils, do you know what is causing that?

I honestly don't know what is causing it or how to get rid of it or if it's supposed to be that way or if that's supposed to be more natural. I don't even know if I like it or if it just stands out to me because I'm not used to it. Personally, I think I might prefer the Uber shader, particularly because the Uber shader offers scatter and transmit settings, something that I do use because I think it gives more of that green/blue tinted undertoning to skin. In particular, check under the eyes and you'll see what I'm getting at. I haven't looked into why the eyes are reflecting brighter on the left...I think it might have to do with the moisture settings not copying over from when I dropped V8.1's eyes in. 

Here's another comparison, this time in more stylized lighting (this is the Energy Flow set by Fabiana, and I use it a lot) - 

The darkness you're seeing is, I believe, ambient occlusion from the new shader. It's self-shadowing like objects have in real life, and it's also on her chin, between her lips, in the creases of her eyelids, etc, just more subtle. The new shader does seem to have some functions to control this, but I haven't played with them yet. 

MelissaGT

LuckBe said:

melissastjames said:

Kharma said:

@melissastjames thanks for the screenshots, I will test your settings and see what I get. obviously will be a bit different as you made your own maps for SSS.  In your render on the PBR shader, there is a slight shadowing or dark lines around the nostrils, do you know what is causing that?

I honestly don't know what is causing it or how to get rid of it or if it's supposed to be that way or if that's supposed to be more natural. I don't even know if I like it or if it just stands out to me because I'm not used to it. Personally, I think I might prefer the Uber shader, particularly because the Uber shader offers scatter and transmit settings, something that I do use because I think it gives more of that green/blue tinted undertoning to skin. In particular, check under the eyes and you'll see what I'm getting at. I haven't looked into why the eyes are reflecting brighter on the left...I think it might have to do with the moisture settings not copying over from when I dropped V8.1's eyes in. 

Here's another comparison, this time in more stylized lighting (this is the Energy Flow set by Fabiana, and I use it a lot) - 

The darkness you're seeing is, I believe, ambient occlusion from the new shader. It's self-shadowing like objects have in real life, and it's also on her chin, between her lips, in the creases of her eyelids, etc, just more subtle. The new shader does seem to have some functions to control this, but I haven't played with them yet. 

I thought that, but disabling it did nothing in terms of the removing the shadow. That map seems to be more of a control related to the specularity strength. 

nonesuch00

OK, I followed aldoreno's instructions (thank you) but in addition I enabled the 'Spectral Occlusion' and left that at it's defaults. For the source skin material set I used a recent character called Kjaer 8 (or something like that), applied the DAZ Iray PBR Skin shader preset and enabled all Surfaces shader features that where enabled on the original Kjaer that were in actual use. I then enable 'Spectral Occlusion' even though it wasn't present on the original Kjaer skin materials. About 1500 iterations in they are looking very similar except 'Spectral Occlusion' has amped up the slightest sheen highlights on the face to be more obviously present. Think of it as the original render with the over iRay Skin shaders looks like someone that has just showered and thouroughly dried off on a cool day compared to that same person after finished the day at about 5 PM at work, not sweaty or oily too much but the skin is doing it's job and perspiring and getting a tab oilier thoughout the day. That's what the DAZ Iray PBR Skin shader preset with 'Spectral Occlusion' did. I kind of like it as that give me a one on/off button that makes a character a bit more realistic in some scenes without making them too oily or plastic looking. Neither render looks plastic which is a huge step up since the intro of Victoria 8 and Michael 8 a while back.

There is still the problem though of very high gloss areas with bumpiness (looking at his shoulder socket area) in my eyes look like blistered skin rather than oily skin. Is that the bump & normals being too strong? If I'm right, probably but I didn't change them. However, I should state on saying that I've never systematically studied pictures of blistered skin in bright light versus slightly oily skin in bright light so I'm not an authority.

benniewoodell

Okay so I followed the steps in the first post of this thread just now, thank you so very much for laying it out so well, and I used Sahira 8. Everything went perfectly from the directions given, she looked wonderful after the five or six steps. Then I went and added one of her makeup settings and this happened. Any idea how to fix this? Thank you for any and all help! 

Daventaki

@benniewoodell  unless the makeup is a geoshell or LIE I would say you have to do the steps all over on the face,otherwise it will have defaulted back to the original Uber shader.

benniewoodell

Daventaki said:

@benniewoodell  unless the makeup is a geoshell or LIE I would say you have to do the steps all over on the face,otherwise it will have defaulted back to the original Uber shader.

Oh, okay, so it's like before where if I change the translucency and then apply a makeup, I have to then go back and redo the translucency only here I have to redo it this way. I'll give it a try. Thank you!

ALLIEKATBLUE

melissastjames said:

Kharma said:

melissastjames said:

ALLIEKATBLUE said:

melissastjames said:

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a franken-skin I put together (mostly Babina 8)(I only updated the head, so please ignore any funk in the neck on the right) - 

And here is the HDRI I used in case anybody wants to replicate the lighting - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=studio_small_03

Do you have any of the SSS channels enabled? This is very lovely

Yes, both are using a translucency value of .9. SSS settings are somewhat tweaked but similar to what you would see on a base G8 figure, which is also the same as V8.1 I build out custom sss maps that have actual "meat"...which is the big factor in the look. Just using a lightened copy of the diffuse map doesn't do it...not sure why Daz hasn't caught on to that yet. Skin is translucent, so you should be able to see what's under it.

Would you be able to post a shot of your settings so others can replicate ?

See attached...

Also note that I built my own sss maps, so that definitely makes a difference as to the depth of the skin. These individual settings are also somewhat different than the settings I use with the Uber shader, particularly dual lobe as that seems to act completely different than the dual lobe Uber shader. 

Thank you so much for taking the time to share this. Much appreciated

plasma_ring

Because I like this shader so far and I want my characters to look fairly consistent, I'm already tackling how to do the Joker's skin because he's without fail the biggest pain. My designs for him are "I fell in a vat of corrosive chemicals" bleached and not goth makeup white, so his skin needs to retain a lot of detail, and it has to look white in all light. If you've ever picked up an Iray character whose skin looks ghostly white in promos, loading them under the default render settings usually reveals that it's heavily lighting dependent, and their actual skin color is anything from dark grey to brown. I made a comparison a while back to demonstrate to my fellow Batman nerds who were thinking of making their own figures:

As far as I can tell the uber shader is a chaos entity and takes the base map color as more of a suggestion than anything, so I got used to adjusting color settings to get the right shade. The PBR shader--being, I suppose, physically-based--inisists that you wake up on time every morning, eat a healthy breakfast, and put blood colors in your blood-under-the-skin slots. This is definitely more commonsensical and will probably work out better for me if I can nail it because of the kind of postwork I do. The skin looks really consistent across different lighting conditions, in terms of where the shadows define the face (thank you @melissastjames for the HDRI rec):

For this test I started with Victoria 8.1's default material preset and did a quick-and-dirty gamma adjustment to the diffuse maps in Photoshop. The translucency color is a slightly bluer version with a very low saturation. I can only get away with very light tweaks on the transmitted and SSS colors before it stops looking like flesh altogether, although this may be less of a concern if your character has not-red blood. 

Also, this was a fun experiment--the first one is Nenana's normal Iray materials, the second is with the PBR shader applied out of the box (all settings except makeup and metallic flakes on, no adjustments), and the third is Victoria 8.1's material preset with Nenana's maps in the base color and translucency color channels (red for base, blue for translucency, pardon seam issues due to mixed UV maps). So it's definitely a thing that requires more tweaking to look right, in my experience, but when it works it looks super cool IMO.

(One interesting note is that Nenana looked pretty much the same with PBR applied from start to finish, no matter what I enabled; she didn't go through the usual "oh no she's transparent now" sequence I've had with characters who have more human-colored skin.)

 

Petra

melissastjames said:

Kharma said:

@melissastjames thanks for the screenshots, I will test your settings and see what I get. obviously will be a bit different as you made your own maps for SSS.  In your render on the PBR shader, there is a slight shadowing or dark lines around the nostrils, do you know what is causing that?

I honestly don't know what is causing it or how to get rid of it or if it's supposed to be that way or if that's supposed to be more natural. I don't even know if I like it or if it just stands out to me because I'm not used to it. Personally, I think I might prefer the Uber shader, particularly because the Uber shader offers scatter and transmit settings, something that I do use because I think it gives more of that green/blue tinted undertoning to skin. In particular, check under the eyes and you'll see what I'm getting at. I haven't looked into why the eyes are reflecting brighter on the left...I think it might have to do with the moisture settings not copying over from when I dropped V8.1's eyes in. 

Here's another comparison, this time in more stylized lighting (this is the Energy Flow set by Fabiana, and I use it a lot) - 

I too prefer the Uber Shader here, it looks more natural, in my opinion, and the skin look more realistic. 

plasma_ring

melissastjames said:

LuckBe said:

melissastjames said:

Kharma said:

@melissastjames thanks for the screenshots, I will test your settings and see what I get. obviously will be a bit different as you made your own maps for SSS.  In your render on the PBR shader, there is a slight shadowing or dark lines around the nostrils, do you know what is causing that?

I honestly don't know what is causing it or how to get rid of it or if it's supposed to be that way or if that's supposed to be more natural. I don't even know if I like it or if it just stands out to me because I'm not used to it. Personally, I think I might prefer the Uber shader, particularly because the Uber shader offers scatter and transmit settings, something that I do use because I think it gives more of that green/blue tinted undertoning to skin. In particular, check under the eyes and you'll see what I'm getting at. I haven't looked into why the eyes are reflecting brighter on the left...I think it might have to do with the moisture settings not copying over from when I dropped V8.1's eyes in. 

Here's another comparison, this time in more stylized lighting (this is the Energy Flow set by Fabiana, and I use it a lot) - 

The darkness you're seeing is, I believe, ambient occlusion from the new shader. It's self-shadowing like objects have in real life, and it's also on her chin, between her lips, in the creases of her eyelids, etc, just more subtle. The new shader does seem to have some functions to control this, but I haven't played with them yet. 

I thought that, but disabling it did nothing in terms of the removing the shadow. That map seems to be more of a control related to the specularity strength. 

I've seen a similar thing on some characters using the uber shader, and I think it was related to top coat settings. The uber shader has more options for that than the PBR shader.

MelissaGT

Petra said:

melissastjames said:

Kharma said:

@melissastjames thanks for the screenshots, I will test your settings and see what I get. obviously will be a bit different as you made your own maps for SSS.  In your render on the PBR shader, there is a slight shadowing or dark lines around the nostrils, do you know what is causing that?

I honestly don't know what is causing it or how to get rid of it or if it's supposed to be that way or if that's supposed to be more natural. I don't even know if I like it or if it just stands out to me because I'm not used to it. Personally, I think I might prefer the Uber shader, particularly because the Uber shader offers scatter and transmit settings, something that I do use because I think it gives more of that green/blue tinted undertoning to skin. In particular, check under the eyes and you'll see what I'm getting at. I haven't looked into why the eyes are reflecting brighter on the left...I think it might have to do with the moisture settings not copying over from when I dropped V8.1's eyes in. 

Here's another comparison, this time in more stylized lighting (this is the Energy Flow set by Fabiana, and I use it a lot) - 

I too prefer the Uber Shader here, it looks more natural, in my opinion, and the skin look more realistic. 

What I'm genuinely missing is the scatter and transmit setting...and that's the big difference between the images in my comparison. That added tint on top of the sss settings adds that little bit of extra "stuff" that shines through the outer layer of skin. I don't always use scatter and transmit, because it largely depends on skin tone, but with pale skin, it definitely adds and is missed when it's not there.  

MelissaGT

Ok, so to illustrate my point about the loss of the scatter and transmit intensity setting, I did up a quick conversion of Vicky 8.1's maps to the Uber Shader and rendered a side by side comparison (I left Vicky 8.1 out of the box on the right. Both are at SubD 4 with no normal maps, which is the default when loading the "HD" preset). The lighting is Fabiana's Energy Flow, which is a more stylized studio lighting. In conclusion...I am honestly leaning towards sticking with the Uber Shader. (Please note that I only did the face/lips/ears for this example, hence the seam at the back of the head on the left.)(Eyes are not part of the example - I love the new eyes.)

Lothar Weber

I feel like I'm back in the Raydream designer days of 1998. Everything new and confusing. Attached is a direct comparison of - left G8.1 with the new shader and - right G8 the standard shader. Both with the same texture. Somewhere I have errors. But I can't find them. If someone has a tip - please. Surface Settings attached.

 

 

Kharma

Sorry wrong thread!  my apologies

 

 

Petra

melissastjames said:

Ok, so to illustrate my point about the loss of the scatter and transmit intensity setting, I did up a quick conversion of Vicky 8.1's maps to the Uber Shader and rendered a side by side comparison (I left Vicky 8.1 out of the box on the right. Both are at SubD 4 with no normal maps, which is the default when loading the "HD" preset). The lighting is Fabiana's Energy Flow, which is a more stylized studio lighting. In conclusion...I am honestly leaning towards sticking with the Uber Shader. (Please note that I only did the face/lips/ears for this example, hence the seam at the back of the head on the left.)(Eyes are not part of the example - I love the new eyes.)

I agree with you, I much prefer the Iray Uber Shader. 

lilweep

in melissastjames's examples, i also prefer the uber shader.