Step-by-Step: Using the new PBR Skin on Genesis 8

AllenArt

Leonides02 said:

The uber shader is superior, I think. I don't like the simplistic SSS on the new "PBR skin shader" at all.

Too bad we can't use the new detail on the uber shader. 

Why not? 

Edit: sorry, you meant going backward from 8.1 to 8. Yeah, I see your point then ;)

 

i53570k

What settings do I adjust to get more light to passthrough, especially the nose and ears in PBRSkin? The settings Melissa posted is a godsend but it kind of looking, for lack of better understanding dry/flat? on my character, espeically in face closeup in nose and ears.

I would still take dryness to waxiness though, but maybe it's just because I didn't know what I am doing whether in Uber or PBR.

Tugpsx

lilweep said:

interesting expression

Actually done with the new Face Control Rig. I kind of like a bit of the controls that you have but not a fan of the symmetry when using the on screen controls. Will need to investigate a bit more.  

lilweep

melissastjames said:

Tugpsx said:

Babina 8 out-the-box texture with the above Shader applied. It's still cooking but looks good to me with this lighting. Thanks for all your help, please check to see where the shader needs improvement, I will have to test with other maps when this one is done.

Teeth getting better but i think i need to work on that shader a bit more.

Babina 8 is quite easy to get looking really good with minimal effort. Here is a comparison to her out of the box, then my Uber Shader tweaks (used only Babina 8 maps), and then converted to the PBR Shader. They were all rendered at SubD 4 with the HD Add-On and normal maps - 

 

I still prefer the Uber Shader over the PBR Shader. (Also want to note that I kinda hate the name "PBR Shader" because the Uber shader is also PBR.)

Here is a link to the HDRI used - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=epping_forest_01

 In this example, im a little torn on the two.

I think the Iray PBR skin shader version might look a bit better. I think the softening of details looks maybe more realistic.  Frankly theyre both kind of okay in their own right.

The benefit of the Iray PBR Skin shader to give you access to tileable microdetail maps probably sets it above the Uber one.  But if the Uber one gives you more control over SSS, then i guess that also means it is better in some cases.

Do you think if they add more SSS parameters to the Iray PBR Skin shader that you could reproduce the look of the Iray Uber Shader with the PBR Skin shader, while also leveraging the microdetail channels?

MelissaGT

lilweep said:

melissastjames said:

Tugpsx said:

Babina 8 out-the-box texture with the above Shader applied. It's still cooking but looks good to me with this lighting. Thanks for all your help, please check to see where the shader needs improvement, I will have to test with other maps when this one is done.

Teeth getting better but i think i need to work on that shader a bit more.

Babina 8 is quite easy to get looking really good with minimal effort. Here is a comparison to her out of the box, then my Uber Shader tweaks (used only Babina 8 maps), and then converted to the PBR Shader. They were all rendered at SubD 4 with the HD Add-On and normal maps - 

 

I still prefer the Uber Shader over the PBR Shader. (Also want to note that I kinda hate the name "PBR Shader" because the Uber shader is also PBR.)

Here is a link to the HDRI used - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=epping_forest_01

 In this example, im a little torn on the two.

I think the Iray PBR skin shader version might look a bit better. I think the softening of details looks maybe more realistic.  Frankly theyre both kind of okay in their own right.

The benefit of the Iray PBR Skin shader to give you access to tileable microdetail maps probably sets it above the Uber one.  But if the Uber one gives you more control over SSS, then i guess that also means it is better in some cases.

Do you think if they add more SSS parameters to the Iray PBR Skin shader that you could reproduce the look of the Iray Uber Shader with the PBR Skin shader, while also leveraging the microdetail channels?

With good bump, normal, and specular maps i don't understand the need for microdetails short of making the skin look like sandpaper...and in other cases, as with V8.1 I see no difference with them at all... ...but if they had kept all the functionality of the Uber Shader's sss and only added to it with the new features, then everybody would be happy. I don't understand why they would have removed the scatter and transmit intensity settings. It certainly didn't do them any favors.

latexluv13_65ebcf7300

I'm done with fruitless experimenting with this shader. I use scatter and trasmit with my figures. Anything that uses scatter only at .90 just ends up rendering like a hot dark mess and I have to adjust it to scatter and transmit. And I always use the tint that comes with scatter and transmit.

ragamuffin57

melissastjames said:

lilweep said:

melissastjames said:

Tugpsx said:

Babina 8 out-the-box texture with the above Shader applied. It's still cooking but looks good to me with this lighting. Thanks for all your help, please check to see where the shader needs improvement, I will have to test with other maps when this one is done.

Teeth getting better but i think i need to work on that shader a bit more.

Babina 8 is quite easy to get looking really good with minimal effort. Here is a comparison to her out of the box, then my Uber Shader tweaks (used only Babina 8 maps), and then converted to the PBR Shader. They were all rendered at SubD 4 with the HD Add-On and normal maps - 

 

I still prefer the Uber Shader over the PBR Shader. (Also want to note that I kinda hate the name "PBR Shader" because the Uber shader is also PBR.)

Here is a link to the HDRI used - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=epping_forest_01

 In this example, im a little torn on the two.

I think the Iray PBR skin shader version might look a bit better. I think the softening of details looks maybe more realistic.  Frankly theyre both kind of okay in their own right.

The benefit of the Iray PBR Skin shader to give you access to tileable microdetail maps probably sets it above the Uber one.  But if the Uber one gives you more control over SSS, then i guess that also means it is better in some cases.

Do you think if they add more SSS parameters to the Iray PBR Skin shader that you could reproduce the look of the Iray Uber Shader with the PBR Skin shader, while also leveraging the microdetail channels?

With good bump, normal, and specular maps i don't understand the need for microdetails short of making the skin look like sandpaper...and in other cases, as with V8.1 I see no difference with them at all... ...but if they had kept all the functionality of the Uber Shader's sss and only added to it with the new features, then everybody would be happy. I don't understand why they would have removed the scatter and transmit intensity settings. It certainly didn't do them any favors.

I agree and the removal of fresnel seemed a bit strange  ( use Fresnel in all skin shaders  ).  I have and  do use Kald  to make  more detailed normal curviture,  concavity, maps from some good texvture maps  or spec maps . Using these in the diffuse  overlay and overlay roughness finding playing around with  these can  also  bring out subtle  details very similar to the tiling that the pbr shader gives . These settings are combined with scatter and transmit  with Fresnel. I   was almost there  in skin texture  I thought we would  have had a new shader with extra  slots for  dermis,  epidermis levels  ie similar to random walk.   Everyone else seems to be able to impliment an  Arnold or Alternitive   that functions similar in their software but  Daz seems once again stepped backwards

Sven Dullah

Although not an IRay user I'm following this discussion with great interest. Removing glossy fresnel, that definitely belongs in the PBR realm, and introducing AO mapping certainly seems strange to me. Almost like a "reality hack" similar to using mapped eye reflections. I also agree that more things to play with is not a bad thing, but why remove essential functions that have been working for years, dumb down the whole thing and name it PBR skin?

Paintbox

After testing, The PBR shader seems much more consistent under various light conditions, whereas the Uber shader seems to need more tweaking for optimal effect.

Really great render @AllenArt

ragamuffin57

Sven Dullah said:

Although not an IRay user I'm following this discussion with great interest. Removing glossy fresnel, that definitely belongs in the PBR realm, and introducing AO mapping certainly seems strange to me. Almost like a "reality hack" similar to using mapped eye reflections. I also agree that more things to play with is not a bad thing, but why remove essential functions that have been working for years, dumb down the whole thing and name it PBR skin?

 

Exactly I have looked at marmoset, blender,  Maya,  3d max, Cinema 4d all have  Arnold style random walk shader added into their software. which use Fresnel and scattering  The AO hack is long gone with the advancement of subsurface scattering shaders  It has amazed me no end to think that the prime business model of Daz is to sell humanoid figures yet the platform they have developed to showcase their wares has never had a decent skin shader. 

I was excited about the PBR Shader but after playing around with it not so much of a fan now

Some skins I will admit are a little better under more lights and hdri's than the standard Uber shader, but  there's not enough in the new shader to really get excited about   I hope Daz developers come to their senses and relook at the shader and reintroduce  Fresnel and the scattering

 

Saint

I like the new shader, it took some adjusting to, but things converge faster, better, there's a noticable decrease in rendering times which I greatly appreciate. The lack of Opacity Texture option is a souring point, and I have some geografts it just won't apply to, period. So obviously it needs some upgrading to compete with Iray Uber in any capacity.

FSMCDesigns

Sven Dullah said:

Although not an IRay user I'm following this discussion with great interest. Removing glossy fresnel, that definitely belongs in the PBR realm, and introducing AO mapping certainly seems strange to me. Almost like a "reality hack" similar to using mapped eye reflections. I also agree that more things to play with is not a bad thing, but why remove essential functions that have been working for years, dumb down the whole thing and name it PBR skin?

Agreed. I am used to AO maps with game design since they are used to help simulate shadows due to the biased and limited lighting used in game engines. Maybe this is a way of DAZ making their assets work better in game engines, who knows.

DustRider

FSMCDesigns said:

Sven Dullah said:

Although not an IRay user I'm following this discussion with great interest. Removing glossy fresnel, that definitely belongs in the PBR realm, and introducing AO mapping certainly seems strange to me. Almost like a "reality hack" similar to using mapped eye reflections. I also agree that more things to play with is not a bad thing, but why remove essential functions that have been working for years, dumb down the whole thing and name it PBR skin?

Agreed. I am used to AO maps with game design since they are used to help simulate shadows due to the biased and limited lighting used in game engines. Maybe this is a way of DAZ making their assets work better in game engines, who knows.

That's exactly what I was thinking too. Seems rather counter intuitive to use AO maps with Iray. I guess it could speed up rendering a bit, but it definitely should help with shader conversion to Unreal and Unity. 

daveso

aldoraeno said:

It took me a while to figure out what I was missing here, so hopefully this will help other people avoid some of the same confusion.

 

Prerequisites

• The latest Daz Studio 4.15
• The latest package update for Genesis 8 Male/Female Starter Essentials

 

Applying to a Genesis 8 character

1. Load your Genesis 8 character.  It doesn't have to be on an 8.1 figure base, a regular Genesis 8 is fine.

2. In the Surfaces pane, select the surfaces you want the shader for, most likely your character's Skin and Lips.

3. In the Smart Content or Content Library pane, find and load the "Daz Iray PBRSkin" shader.  (Your character probably now looks like a pale white ghost in Iray.)

4. Type "Enable" into the search box a the top of the Surfaces pane.  You'll see a long list of On/Off buttons, with only Diffuse Enable turned on.

5. Turn on Translucency Enable. (You should now have a darker but transparent-looking ghost character in Iray.)

6. At the bottom of the list, turn on Transmission Enable and SSS Enable (these buttons didn't exist before step 5). This should make your character finally appear corporeal.

7. Turn on any other shader features your original skin material used:

   • Most Iray skin uses Bump and Dual Lobe Specular.

   • Some unusual skin materials or makeup may use Top Coat, Metallic Flakes, and/or Metallicity.

 

At this point, your character when rendered in Iray should have skin fairly similar to what you had before applying the PBR Skin shader.  Hopefully it looks better in some ways. It might be shinier, lighter, darker, etc.  Clear the search box and tweak any settings to adjust for whatever you're looking for.

Note: If your character is way too shiny after turning on Dual Lobe Specular Enable, you may want to also turn on Specular Occlusion Enable and greatly reduce the Grazing and/or Facing values under it to get a more subtle sheen.  An occlusion mask texture is not required for this.

if you have to do all that to make the skin look like it did prior to applying PBR, why bother? 

Gr00vus

@melissatjames - Could you please post your customized Iray Uber material settings for the below?  

melissastjames said:

Babina 8 is quite easy to get looking really good with minimal effort. Here is a comparison to her out of the box, then my Uber Shader tweaks (used only Babina 8 maps), and then converted to the PBR Shader. They were all rendered at SubD 4 with the HD Add-On and normal maps - 

 

I still prefer the Uber Shader over the PBR Shader. (Also want to note that I kinda hate the name "PBR Shader" because the Uber shader is also PBR.)

Here is a link to the HDRI used - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=epping_forest_01

Therewolf

What are the benifits of PBR suppose to be?

In my own testing, PBR loses detail too quickly in the shadows, it's a sudden drop into black. Uber offers far more detail as the light rolls from the midtones into the shadows beautifully. If this were a camera shootout I'd conclude that Uber has far better dynamic range in the shadows than PBR, giving it the edge in cinematic quality.  

MelissaGT

Gr00vus said:

@melissatjames - Could you please post your customized Iray Uber material settings for the below?  

melissastjames said:

Babina 8 is quite easy to get looking really good with minimal effort. Here is a comparison to her out of the box, then my Uber Shader tweaks (used only Babina 8 maps), and then converted to the PBR Shader. They were all rendered at SubD 4 with the HD Add-On and normal maps - 

 

I still prefer the Uber Shader over the PBR Shader. (Also want to note that I kinda hate the name "PBR Shader" because the Uber shader is also PBR.)

Here is a link to the HDRI used - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=epping_forest_01

Sorry I didn't see this question! I'm working on an article for ShibaShake's blog that goes into detail on how I set up my skin shader settings for the Uber Shader. (I personally don't use spectral rendering, but the article will give settings for with and without because they're definitely different). Shiba reached out to me in December and I'm dragging my feet on it so I apologize all around! I am off to a good start with it though!

Sevrin

Yeah, spectral rendering can make a really big difference.  Here is the texture from VOOTW's Vo Rose (which has mysteriously disappeared from the store) on Jessai's Verity.  Translucency turned down a smidge from 0.9 to 0.8,  Added a bit of freckles and Those Things Horizon Vellus. Straight renders; no post.  Results will vary a lot depending on the texture settings.

On

Off

MelissaGT

Sevrin said:

Yeah, spectral rendering can make a really big difference.  Here is the texture from VOOTW's Vo Rose (which has mysteriously disappeared from the store) on Jessai's Verity.  Translucency turned down a smidge from 0.9 to 0.8,  Added a bit of freckles and Those Things Horizon Vellus. Straight renders; no post.  Results will vary a lot depending on the texture settings.

On

Off

In your example, I honestly prefer 'off' as the 'on' image seems to have a greenish cast, which is a common issue with spectral rendering. Here is a comparison that I worked up for the article I'm writing...so it's my Uber Shader settings for standard compared to my Uber Shader settings for spectral rendering. The goal was to ensure that the level of sss I had with standard rendering carried through to spectral rendering, and for her skin to not go green. It turned out a smidge on the pink side, so I might revise the settings a bit before I hand over the finished article - 

 

Genesis_Appleseed

melissastjames said:

ALLIEKATBLUE said:

melissastjames said:

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a franken-skin I put together (mostly Babina 8)(I only updated the head, so please ignore any funk in the neck on the right) - 

And here is the HDRI I used in case anybody wants to replicate the lighting - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=studio_small_03

Do you have any of the SSS channels enabled? This is very lovely

Yes, both are using a translucency value of .9. SSS settings are somewhat tweaked but similar to what you would see on a base G8 figure, which is also the same as V8.1 I build out custom sss maps that have actual "meat"...which is the big factor in the look. Just using a lightened copy of the diffuse map doesn't do it...not sure why Daz hasn't caught on to that yet. Skin is translucent, so you should be able to see what's under it.

Hi! Highly realistic! What texture did you use for Base color and Translucency Color?

MelissaGT

Genesis_Appleseed said:

melissastjames said:

ALLIEKATBLUE said:

melissastjames said:

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a franken-skin I put together (mostly Babina 8)(I only updated the head, so please ignore any funk in the neck on the right) - 

And here is the HDRI I used in case anybody wants to replicate the lighting - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=studio_small_03

Do you have any of the SSS channels enabled? This is very lovely

Yes, both are using a translucency value of .9. SSS settings are somewhat tweaked but similar to what you would see on a base G8 figure, which is also the same as V8.1 I build out custom sss maps that have actual "meat"...which is the big factor in the look. Just using a lightened copy of the diffuse map doesn't do it...not sure why Daz hasn't caught on to that yet. Skin is translucent, so you should be able to see what's under it.

Hi! Highly realistic! What texture did you use for Base color and Translucency Color?

It is a custom skin mashup that I blended together in Photoshop. I then rebuilt the SSS map off of the customized color map. 

Here is a better example of her - 

Link to the series in the gallery - https://www.daz3d.com/gallery/user/5217291553734656#gallery=newest&page=1&image=1140541

 

Genesis_Appleseed

It is a custom skin mashup that I blended together in Photoshop. I then rebuilt the SSS map off of the customized color map. 

Here is a better example of her - 

Link to the series in the gallery - https://www.daz3d.com/gallery/user/5217291553734656#gallery=newest&page=1&image=1140541

 

IMHO, too deep scattering: 

Try to apply these settings:

Daedalus-7

There is a much simpler way to convert the Iray skin shader to PBR:

1) Apply your Iray skin shader to your character as usual.

2) Go to a character with PBR skin (such as Vicktoria 8.1 or Michael 8.1)

3) Hold CTRL +ALT and double click on that character's skin.

4) A pop-up window appears, choose "Images > Ignore". This basically means that you are loading the shader without the texture maps!

5) Since characters with PBR are typically 8.1 characters, applying their skin shader will change the UVs to 8.1. If your chosen textures are 8.0, you need to switch it back to 8.0

This is done in the Surfaces Pane, search for UV and choose "Base Female" or "Base Male".

All done!

NOTE: Your character might now have a different look due to the different properties of the PBR skin shader you are using. 

 

HERE are my PBR skin settings: 

Top Coat Roughness: 0.55 body ; 0.45 head ; 0.40 face ; 0.3 lips [The face tends to be more oily, the lips even more, the head is changed for a smoother transition]. If you want a more "shiny" look, you can reduce these by 0.1 each [body to 0.45, face 0.35, head 0.4, lips 0.2]

 

Tugpsx

Thanks for the formulas, will give them a try.

Tugpsx

Both formulas provided decent results. Thanks for sharing.

 

FP

MelissaGT said:

Genesis_Appleseed said:

melissastjames said:

ALLIEKATBLUE said:

melissastjames said:

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a franken-skin I put together (mostly Babina 8)(I only updated the head, so please ignore any funk in the neck on the right) - 

And here is the HDRI I used in case anybody wants to replicate the lighting - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=studio_small_03

Do you have any of the SSS channels enabled? This is very lovely

Yes, both are using a translucency value of .9. SSS settings are somewhat tweaked but similar to what you would see on a base G8 figure, which is also the same as V8.1 I build out custom sss maps that have actual "meat"...which is the big factor in the look. Just using a lightened copy of the diffuse map doesn't do it...not sure why Daz hasn't caught on to that yet. Skin is translucent, so you should be able to see what's under it.

Hi! Highly realistic! What texture did you use for Base color and Translucency Color?

It is a custom skin mashup that I blended together in Photoshop. I then rebuilt the SSS map off of the customized color map. 

Here is a better example of her - 

Link to the series in the gallery - https://www.daz3d.com/gallery/user/5217291553734656#gallery=newest&page=1&image=1140541

 

What base skin(s) did you mash up? Could you describe your technique for this and the SSS? Thanks.

MelissaGT

FP said:

MelissaGT said:

Genesis_Appleseed said:

melissastjames said:

ALLIEKATBLUE said:

melissastjames said:

Here is a side-by-side comparison of a franken-skin I put together (mostly Babina 8)(I only updated the head, so please ignore any funk in the neck on the right) - 

And here is the HDRI I used in case anybody wants to replicate the lighting - https://hdrihaven.com/hdri/?h=studio_small_03

Do you have any of the SSS channels enabled? This is very lovely

Yes, both are using a translucency value of .9. SSS settings are somewhat tweaked but similar to what you would see on a base G8 figure, which is also the same as V8.1 I build out custom sss maps that have actual "meat"...which is the big factor in the look. Just using a lightened copy of the diffuse map doesn't do it...not sure why Daz hasn't caught on to that yet. Skin is translucent, so you should be able to see what's under it.

Hi! Highly realistic! What texture did you use for Base color and Translucency Color?

It is a custom skin mashup that I blended together in Photoshop. I then rebuilt the SSS map off of the customized color map. 

Here is a better example of her - 

Link to the series in the gallery - https://www.daz3d.com/gallery/user/5217291553734656#gallery=newest&page=1&image=1140541

 

What base skin(s) did you mash up? Could you describe your technique for this and the SSS? Thanks.

For the color map, the base skin is Bramble HD by Lyoness and I blended in facial features from Babina 8. Specular, Bump, and Normal maps are all Babina 8. I created a custom SSS map off of the blended color map and blood vessel maps that are no longer available (that I can find). You can find a basic tutorial on how I handle SSS maps here. Tattoos are from Freyja 8, but have been heavily modified and blended into the color and sss maps. 

MadHammer

Daedalus-7 said:

There is a much simpler way to convert the Iray skin shader to PBR:

1) Apply your Iray skin shader to your character as usual.

2) Go to a character with PBR skin (such as Vicktoria 8.1 or Michael 8.1)

3) Hold CTRL +ALT and double click on that character's skin.

4) A pop-up window appears, choose "Images > Ignore". This basically means that you are loading the shader without the texture maps!

5) Since characters with PBR are typically 8.1 characters, applying their skin shader will change the UVs to 8.1. If your chosen textures are 8.0, you need to switch it back to 8.0

This is done in the Surfaces Pane, search for UV and choose "Base Female" or "Base Male".

All done!

NOTE: Your character might now have a different look due to the different properties of the PBR skin shader you are using. 

 

HERE are my PBR skin settings: 

Top Coat Roughness: 0.55 body ; 0.45 head ; 0.40 face ; 0.3 lips [The face tends to be more oily, the lips even more, the head is changed for a smoother transition]. If you want a more "shiny" look, you can reduce these by 0.1 each [body to 0.45, face 0.35, head 0.4, lips 0.2]

 

I don't usually respond here very often because I am just a beginner at DAZ, but this little tip helped me find something that I think is not supposed to work but does. I wanted an asnwer to using PBRSkin shader on Anatomical Elements, everything says it can't be done, but using this method forces PBRSkin Shader on genitalia. Since I was using a G8 texture I did have to apply the Base Female UV after copying the Victoria 8.1 shader. Not only were all the standard skin textures converted to the new shader but the Anatomical Elements were converted at the same time.

You can't simply double-click on PBRSkin Shader with Genitalia selected in the scene, it simply ignores the script and remains Iray Uber. I am still not sure if this is the correct way to accomplish this and I haven't tried it with other genitalia. Maybe it will but I don't want to mess around too much with this. At least now I have a starting point to play around with converting my G8 models to G8.1 models with new skin shaders. Thanks for figuring this out.

cgidesign

What is causing those strange shadows around the nose and chin? It looks somehow wrong to me (a bit like ambient occlusion is added into the lighting mix). But beside of that the skin look great.

function

please let me ask a junior question: what is the difference between PBR skin, Uber skin and those HD Addon skins?

For example, when I use Face Transfer to make a figure, it applying the G8 Base map, and already generates brows on face base map, what should I do, apply PBR skin or HD Addon? I tried one HD full map, it brings the second brows on the face, and makeup the eyesocket so that it seems a different person.