Too many UV maps!!!!
DisparateDreamer
Posts: 2,504
I'm seriously getting frustrated with all the different UV maps. I can understand vastly different shapes, but c'mon, one for every female? I was totally about to get Virtual World's new character Min Seo, because I love Virtual World's characters and they are always an automatic buy. Good thing I suddenly decided to check what UV map it was for, since it uses the new UV map that comes with the new shape Mei Lin.
So it joined a growing horde of characters in my wishlist, because I'm tired of having to buy a ton of shapes just for their UV maps to use the character's textures.
I used to buy every single Genesis item, because it was so dang versatile. And while I get some of the awesomeness that is Genesis 2, such as better shaping details, well. I'm tired of having to buy 2-3x as much to get only half the function of basic genesis.
Here's a head's up, Daz and Vendors. The more requirements an item has, the less likely it is to join my runtime or my cart. I'm still trying to decide if i want to focus on base Genesis 2 textures or Victoria 6 textures (I haven't even started on male textures). And the more UV maps that keep getting thrown in the mix, the less likely I'm inclined to even buy at all. So frustrated. :(
So much so, that I'm even using V4 more than genesis these days. Seriously. And I love genesis. Sigh.
Is it just me who is frustrated by the whole "every shape needs its own UV map, so that textures require you to buy every shape" kind of thing?
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Comments
It's frustrating but much of the process of making a UVMap is up to the software that generates the model and depending on what methods were used to make distinctions on those models the UVMaps will be influenced by that. Of course you can edit what the computer produces but you may run into subtle differences when one model has a different number of polygons than it's predecessor.It can be done, it has been done but theres almost always some kind of short falling with those textures designed for one model when modified for a new one.
It's frustrating but much of the process of making a UVMap is up to the software that generates the model and depending on what methods were used to make distinctions on those models the UVMaps will be influenced by that. Of course you can edit what the computer produces but you may run into subtle differences when one model has a different number of polygons than it's predecessor.It can be done, it has been done but theres almost always some kind of short falling with those textures designed for one model when modified for a new one.
This is Genesis 2 its the same figure as far as I'm aware no polygons are added. I've even seen someone say somewhere that the differences are so tiny that sometimes you can not even tell that the wrong UV is being used.
I agree Belovedalia - wholeheartedly - the only good thing I can see from my point of view is that its saving me money.
I've never compared the uv maps from Genesis 1 to Genesis 2 so you could be entirely right.
I know the feeling. I almost feel obligated to own every major figure just so I have the UV's when they're needed. In fact, I actually bought Stephanie 5 for Genesis because the Haley and Hayden teen figures both used the Stephanie 5 UVs.
Most of the time, the differences are incredible subtle at best, and unnoticed at worst. I can understand why you'd want a unique UV on, for example, a flat-chested figure compared to a busty supermodel to avoid stretching or condensing in that area. It can be very noticeable on kids morphs, but generally speaking they're covered up so no one notices.
Still, this was a concern I raised back in the Genesis days and still we're seeing every major figure being released with their own UVs. I guess somewhere down the line I just gave up the fight and I've since bought every figure available for G2F. I don't regret any of it for a second, since the bundles have seen plenty of use so far, but since I mix and match textures regardless of figure shape I don't see many advantages to having quite so many UV options.
The UV's are basically for individual morphs of the same model. For G2F alone we have Lilith 6, Aiko 6, Victoria 5, Victoria 6, Giselle 6, Girl 6, Stephanie 6, Olympia, Gia, and now Mei Lin. That's ignoring the base UV's and the 'bonus' UV's you can purchase such as Aiko 5 or Victoria 4.I often wonder what few pixels difference each UV map makes to each figure and why they felt it was necessary. New UV's or not though, it probably won't stop me buying the next new figure that comes along. I think I may be an addict...
The maps between Genesis 1 and 2 are quite different its all the different UV maps that are being produced for Genesis 2 that are getting annoying.
A new map is produced for each DO morph that Daz produces, Victoria 6, Aiko 6, Gia, Olympia, Giselle, Lilith etc and now Mei Lin, this unique UV is usually only used for a few characters that come out with the base morph therefore the characters' textures that have been made using her cannot be used without first shelling out for the base.
These UV maps should be made available for free or very cheap (e.g. PC items), so that it doesn't prevent people from buying characters that use them... could we have a 'Free the UV maps' badge ? ;)
Exactly what i was trying to say. It is absolutely nuts to have to buy an expensive base shape and UV map just for a few characters/textures for it!! In the end, I just say "screw this crap" and haven't bought any besides V6 and i just use my V5 or V4 textures on Genesis 2... or stick to Genesis 1 since its so much simpler and has way cooler shapes like animals and stuff. I feel like Daz is milking us for every penny with all these ridiculous UV maps!
It's funny, people are complaining that there are too many UV Maps now, but I wonder how many would complain about texture distortion and stretching if their were only one or two UV Maps available?
Nightwolf, that might be an issue on Genesis 1, that covers so many shapes, but genesis 2 female is solely a feminine shape. I can see a couple different UV maps, but what are we up to, 8 -10 different UV maps on Genesis 2 female? and the differences aren't very big at all in shape, not a distortion issue. This is just overboard.
Why would there even be a distortion if the character is mapped right? Gen 4 for the most part was V4 & M4 with all character shapes and textures made on those two UVs (I'm not counting K4 in this case, obviously).
I suppose a lot of marketing is just smoke and mirrors. Seeing any real value in amongst the noise becomes quite tedious.
What UV a mat duf is for better be in the duf otherwise it's crazy-pulling-hair time. The list of UVs on Genesis 2 is really long but I don't think it's as long as Genesis yet which leaves no room left on the screen. :).
I loaded up Stalker Girl (genesis) the other day to check which UV she uses (it's V4) and I selected her skin with the orange outline of the surface selection tool. I switched UVs to Genesis and the outlines moved--it's pretty easy to see some of the differences especially on the face. Of course, the UV differences among the various Gen2F figures are probably much more subtle. Click click back and forth and it's like a neon show.
Genesis uses some pretty extreme shape differences. And the V4 UV map was added separately (and then later someone did a corrected V4 UV map). Some things DEFINITELY have big distortions, such as the frog shape, freak shape, etc. Since Genesis base seems to be a lot more for versatile shaping than the genesis 2 figures.
Very much concurs (as I think I have said before on these fora).
And don't forget that all these UV maps can have a knock-on effect with geografts.
Considering this is Genesis, where people are going to mix and match material settings regardless of the figure shape, there comes a point where you have to say we have enough UV's to work with. All of this additional work with UV's is lost the instant you dial out of the basic figure anyway.
I agree as well. I think they need to limit UVs to more extreme shapes. Girl 6 and Lilith 6 are two examples,as is Giselle 6.
OTOH, V6, Stephanie 6, and Mei Lin 6 have similar enough shapes that there's really no excuse for a separate UV for each.
That's actually something I've been thinking on suggesting myself. Since all characters are in categorizations of "Fantasy/Sci-Fi", "Real World" and "Stylized", why not just three basic UVs built-in for each one.
I can imagine Genesis 3 with Giselle 7, F7, the CC's under the "Fantasy" UV Set, V7, M7, S7, D7, etc. under the "Realistic" set, and A7, H7, tG7 under the "Toon" set. This would seriously reduce the amount of work in producing backward-compatible UV sets and would allow any purchased character to be used without any extra base character purchase needed.
I'm guessing there's several types of buyers on the site: Those that buy characters for the characters and those that buy characters for just the skins. If you don't care about the fact that 1) UVs are optimized for that particular characters despite minor differences so people can't see the minor stretching and 2) PAs that make textures specifically for that UV for their characters as a package, then I can kind of see your issue. But it's a no win situation because I remember with G1, and opposite thread popped up because a good chunk of the Genesis characters did not use ANY of Genesis' UVs... they used V4 and M4 and stretched badly in some areas and people jumped in demanding PAs make their textures using native Genesis UVs.
So though there may be a lot of UVs, because some people don't buy all the characters, I can see where different UVs can be made so that buying a character with their texture wouldn't require the purchase of a separate character, such as someone buying an Olympia character but it would require them having V6 in order to use the texture. But I also get from the tone of the thread that some really don't care about the effort the PAs make to design a product based on a character and that UV because all the really want is the skin off of it to use for their items and the fact that there are optimized UVs are keeping those people from just pulling the skin and using it on a different character that they won't buy. Maybe a reduced cost UV could be offered or if people don't care about minor stretching a common UV could be used; however I can see if this is done, another thread would pop up noting stretching because everything now uses the same UV as it did in G1.
I just ran a comparison between all the female face textures, and there're definitely significant differences in some of them. Girl 6 and Giselle 6 by far were changed the most, with Girl 6 featuring wider, larger features while Giselle 6 had smaller, narrower features. All of the characters had pretty noticeable changes to brow placement and overall shapes of their eyes, noses and mouths.
This actually makes sense to me, since the character's faces are the most radically altered part of the base mesh. By comparison, almost all of the character's torso maps were nearly identical, with Giselle 6 being the exception.
the parallel of V4 maps on Genesis vs Genesis default maps doesn't make sense. V4 maps were CONVERTED to Genesis, not MADE for genesis. That is the HUGE difference. Whereas all the new UV maps for Genesis 2F are made for her specifically. And come on, I rarely EVER use the textures on the shape they are made for! I always dial in my own preferred shape and face, so really the UV maps arent that big of deal. And like I said, I still use V4 maps 99% of the time because I'm just fed up with the whole mess of new UV maps. In the end, it just means that vendors aren't getting my sales, because I'm not buying every single shape just to be able to use their textures. Which sucks for me, but probably sucks more for the vendor who looses my sale. And ultimately that makes me sad, because I've been here shopping for years and years, and I LIKE to buy new textures and characters, and it's depressing every time I see a new character shape and it has a new UV map.... and I don't want either one, but I like the texture that someone else makes for it. Bummer.
Stretching seemed to be a problem when it came to skin markings (particularly geometric body art). It didn't happen often.
Like mentioned previously there's several types of buyers that purchase characters; and I think you're looking more for an a la cart-type purchase which you aren't able to do with UVs that are optimized for a character. Since I make my own morphs, I also purchase some characters to use as skins as well and I buy bundles more for the clothing, but I do understand the quality aspect of using multiple UVs and PAs making products intended to be used as a whole rather than the skins alone as that's really what drives their sales.
The brow alignment issue could easily be fixed by not painting the brows (or any body hair for that matter) on the texture, use LIE to place them instead. There really only need to be three basic UV mappings for G2F, the current base, a Svelte or Petite and finally a Voluptuous or Full Figured. For G2M the current base, a Wiry and a Bulky (may need better names but you get the idea).
Ectomorph, Mesomorph, and Endomorph UVs? :)
LIE only works in DS and one renderer, so that would not work. I'm doubting three UVs would solve any complaints either. Is there any other reason against using multiple UVs besides not wanting to pay for the figure for which the product was originally made for?
There's an elephant in the room.
Right up to the point where DAZ starts losing money because of all the requirement and incompatibilities they will not complain that we're buying their store over and over and over and over and over....
At some point the thoughtful casual hobbyist will say enough is enough and skip a generation or two. Or based on the recent update frequency, three or four generations!
It's fitting that this question arises at the end of October. Ask yourself, are you a DAZ Zombie?
Ooh, shiny! Must buy, must buy....
LIE only works in DS and one renderer, so that would not work. I'm doubting three UVs would solve any complaints either. Is there any other reason against using multiple UVs besides not wanting to pay for the figure for which the product was originally made for?
Its complicated and confusing, product pages rarely have the information of which UV is needed for characters.
Its not always possible for everyone to be able to afford the numerous base Morphs
Even in the torso - if you apply the wrong UV, you'll find the nipples going off on little trips to weird places. That said as long as you're not doing a nude - you might not ever notice anything torso wise.
I do wish they had a lot fewer UV maps - but if its a contest between that and quality - I will take quality and live with the UV-map creep.
I too remember this hobby about 10-14 years ago when the further your character got from the base figure of the day - the more camera angles had to be used to hide flaws... One of the things that caused a lot of early 3D art to be dismissed as not art was hitting that "uncanny Valley" when you could really recognize a 'human like figure' - but the flaws were so distracting, even when you tried to stylize in order to avoid that valley...
So... I'll take quality maps and figures over convenience any day - it may be a hassle sorting through my maps and figures, but if it lets me get 'art', if it keeps the tech from interfering with my creativity - then I'll accept it.
But when those added UV maps are not needed, they shouldn't be there. Yet I'm not expert in knowing which case is which.
UVs aside, one of the things I've noticed is that quality female mats work well with most female morphs. Bree, Belle and Tori work well with Lux on every character I've applied them to.
Good mat sets seem to be few and far between though. Especially sets that include normal maps, SSS mats.
Its complicated and confusing, product pages rarely have the information of which UV is needed for characters.
Its not always possible for everyone to be able to afford the numerous base Morphs
Requirements ideally should be for listing products needed for the character to render exactly like the promos. So if a character requires a certain morph set or UV that is an additional purchase it should be listed. The base UVs I don't have strong feeling about listing because everyone has those by default and you are assumed to have those. It would be reasonable to assume from reading the product description that a character for V6 would either use the base UV or the V6 UV so it's not necessary to list it; however if a V6 character required the purchase of Olympia to use her UV, then I would expect that to be listed in the requirements. (Or a character for G2F that required the V6 UV)