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Having the UV set listed on the product page would solve a lot of the problems. The difficulty is not knowing whether a required product is required for the morphs or for the UV set, as not everyone plans to use both.
Listing it when a product uses the default G2F or V5 UV set would still be helpful, if only to know that the info wasn't just left out.
One issue for me in terms of body UV sets is that the vast majority of G2F characters, for example, are too skinny for me, so no matter which UV set they use I'm likely to encounter stretching when I plump them up.
The problem with many G2F characters is that they look a lot less than human.
The GF2 default shape may well be the average shape and size. But its hardly an idealized form. Just look at an athlete.
Why haven't we seen more body scans? maybe its too much hard work making the JCMs.
What somebody (who's better than I at maps and texturing) should do is include realistic stretch marks in their "realistic" skin packages, and place them in the areas of the UV map most distorted by plumpings-out and pregnancy morphs. Like those pretty lines my wife has after two kids.
I agree, though, that creators should specify which UVs their textures use in every case, now that we've got a new skin map for every figure.
What somebody (who's better than I at maps and texturing) should do is include realistic stretch marks in their "realistic" skin packages, and place them in the areas of the UV map most distorted by plumpings-out and pregnancy morphs. Like those pretty lines my wife has after two kids.
I agree, though, that creators should specify which UVs their textures use in every case, now that we've got a new skin map for every figure.
That would probably be hard to get through QA, since if it looked right on a morphed-up body it would be squeezed on the base. Also, there'd be less resolution to work with in the areas that would be stretched, assuming the map was well-relaxed to start with. Which are the reasons for the alternative mappings.
I am big proponent of LIE and want to see more texture vendors use it. It doesn't do anything that can't be done with any decent image program so Poser users could still use LIE based textures, they would just need to process them outside of Poser. LIE writes a .png file of the altered image to Studio's temp folder so it could be extracted and used like any other texture image for use in other render engines. But my main reason for wanting to just have a few official UV maps is the number of texture sets that either don't have Bump, Specular or SSS Strength maps or worst the included maps are technically flawed. With fewer UVs I could possibly borrow the maps from another character set or a set of 'universal' ones could be made. If body hair was a separate LIE image I could manipulate those to use as masks on the borrowed or universal maps.
UV's make a big difference to character shapes, its also industry standard that with 3D objects, or in this case FBMs, that the UV is in fact well optimized so as to avoid stretching of textures. Some character shapes may not noticeably require much changes from the base UVs, but there is stretching and that degrades the quality of the product. Extreme FBMs like creatures or larger build characters really really need their own UVs, many sold sadly do not have them, and when you try making custom detailed textures and or close up renders, you will really wish there was a matching UV.
In all, I would love it to Always be specified which UV the textures for a character require. Some do, others don't. Regardless if it uses a UV that comes with the base figures "Genesis" "Genesis 2 Female" "Genesis 2 Male". Its the first question I always have the moment I look at a PA character in new releases.
If you don’t care about the fact that 1) UVs are optimized for that particular characters despite minor differences so people can’t see the minor stretching
I don't understand how there can't be a workaround for this that doesn't require a new UV map. Again, I'm talking about S6 and Meilin 6 using the same UV map-- aside perhaps from Mei Lin's backside, I don't see any difference in their UV maps (face is a tad different, but the face UVs are huge so I'd think that stretching would be less of an issue-- more pixels = more workaround) Obviously the other Genesis 2 female characters would need their own UV as their shapes are vastly different. A separate UV for each male is probably necessary as well, since unlike V6/S6/Mei Lin 6, the differences in body shape are typically much more pronounced.
But I also get from the tone of the thread that some really don’t care about the effort the PAs make to design a product based on a character and that UV because all the really want is the skin off of it to use for their items and the fact that there are optimized UVs are keeping those people from just pulling the skin and using it on a different character that they won’t buy. Maybe a reduced cost UV could be offered or if people don’t care about minor stretching a common UV could be used; however I can see if this is done, another thread would pop up noting stretching because everything now uses the same UV as it did in G1.
The V4 and M4 Genesis UVs suffered from stretching to begin with, though.
I just ran a comparison between all the female face textures, and there’re definitely significant differences in some of them. Girl 6 and Giselle 6 by far were changed the most, with Girl 6 featuring wider, larger features while Giselle 6 had smaller, narrower features. All of the characters had pretty noticeable changes to brow placement and overall shapes of their eyes, noses and mouths.
Ah. Well, that sucks horribly. Though G6 and Giselle 6 are two that I think need a separate UV map anyhow due to vastly different body shapes.
LIE only works in DS and one renderer, so that would not work.
Wait, seriously? I see layer masks for Poser in the Renderosity freebies section by several different people.
Is there any other reason against using multiple UVs besides not wanting to pay for the figure for which the product was originally made for?
YES.
1. I may like the makeup from one specific product-- I am VERY picky about makeup. I may like the skin from another-- so I mess around with the makeup in Photoshop/Gimp to delete the skin and just use the makeup. Now, admittedly this is exponentially less a problem with female as opposed to male UVs, specifically because the selection of non-goth male makeup is so incredibly limited. I am also VERY picky about my male skins, BTW. I am not interested in goth makeup, but I like male eyeliner. This is my biggest gripe by far and is a serious hassle for me.
2. Having a crapton of UVs in the dropdown menu... rather annoying.
That said, I agree that 3 UV maps is nowhere near enough. You need separate UVs for standard-proportioned, H-cupped, small breasted/skinny, muscular, and 3DUniverse characters at bare minimum. Gia, Giselle, Girl 6, Aiko 6, and Lilith all need those optimized UV maps. Olympia maybe, as well, due to her meaty arms.
The brow alignment issue could easily be fixed by not painting the brows (or any body hair for that matter) on the texture,
Yes, YES!! I prefer geografted brows and browless texture maps (I have to use spot healer to remove the brows from all the skins I purchase) I wish someone would release some geografted realistic brows for G2F and G2M already... I liked both Chris Palamino's Genesis Brows and Sickleyield's Genesis brows-- the former for the realism, the latter for the color customization options.
I always dial in my own preferred shape and face, so really the UV maps arent that big of deal.
BINGO. I never, ever use morphs straight out of the box. In fact, I often make extreme and stylized changes to them. Lots of people do (e.g. H-cup breasts-- which is why I imagine that Lilith 6 will be the second most popular character besides V6) I typically give my females rather large (sometimes H-cup/Lilith sized) breasts, and a lot of muscle-- in fact I always have to dial up the muscle at least a little bit on them in at least a few places. This is also the case with the males (usually dial it up in certain places but not universally)
Generally in character products, this will never be done because when making a face morph, one of the major things that change the look of a character is the brows. You can't simply get a good morph design by leaving off the brows, hence no one does it. It was rarely done with V4, and that's why the brow prop was removed. This would be something that would need be done in a merchant resource though. Also brows are added to protect the vendor from someone just reusing their work and adding another brow in.
Also the brows are generally added from a photo reference, not brow brushes so unless a brush looks extremely realistic, they aren't used in a product.
You would then fall into the same group that would buy items for the skins; however, products are bought because of how the overall package is presented, otherwise vendors would just simply put a skin on the default G2F... but they wouldn't sell many that way.
What somebody (who's better than I at maps and texturing) should do is include realistic stretch marks in their "realistic" skin packages, and place them in the areas of the UV map most distorted by plumpings-out and pregnancy morphs. Like those pretty lines my wife has after two kids.
I agree, though, that creators should specify which UVs their textures use in every case, now that we've got a new skin map for every figure.
Don't have anything useful to say about UV's BUT I wanted to applaud you about the way you described the stretchmarks of your wife...You are my hero of the day :D
Don't have anything useful to say about UV's BUT I wanted to applaud you about the way you described the stretchmarks of your wife...You are my hero of the day :D
Haha me too, awesome!!!!! My husband feels the same about my stretchmarks :)
I really can't say I agree with the idea that UV maps are 'necessary' for every character, because despite mentioning people complaining about stretching I really see very little. of course if you put a texture using the wrong UV map, but that's because its been refitted. if you use character textures for other shapes though, for example, if i use base female textures/base female UV or V5 textures/V5 UV on other shapes, such as Olympia, which is much curvier than the default shape, I see no issues with the textures. So really, we don't NEED SO MANY UV maps. If I like a shape, I buy the shape. I don't want to buy it because I need the UV for another texture. Likewise, if i like a texture, I want to be able to buy it without being required to buy an expensive shape and new UV map.
I also love to use LIE and overlays and stuff, and the more UV maps there are, the less feasible those kinds of things are. It's really ridiculous. Save the new UV maps for radically different shapes. But this new-uv-for-every-single-shape game is just not cool. I hate to say it, but I've gone back to buying V4 textures at other stores rather than buying all these textures taht require the constant purchase of new UV maps.
I think MM3 comprehensively addressed anything I would have said about the merits of using UVs for specific characters, so I'll leave that part alone. I just want to mention that off the top of my head, I can think of two vendors, besides myself, that list clearly which UV is being used. Silver has been using the G2F base UV for quite a while, and FWArt has been using V5 UVs to also be compatible with Genesis.
Examples:
http://www.daz3d.com/silver/gogo-for-mei-lin-6
http://www.daz3d.com/fwart/fwf-mayuree-hd-for-mei-lin-6
I'm sure there are more, but these were the ones I thought of right away.
An old trick to making a singular UV map work is to dial up or apply the morph you want, export the obj like that and paint it in a program that supports painting on a 3D object. That way there is no stretching.
Map Transfer can change textures between UVs and is built into DS.
I've never heard of this thing O_o Is it in 4.5? I don't use 4.6, so if it's only in that, then it won't do me any good. Is it a commercial product?
however. I’m still seeing my point about wanting the skins without paying for the character being noted in the discussion.
Sometimes yes. sometimes no. Sometimes I only want the skin of the character, other times I'm only interested in the morph. Sometimes I like both but not not at the same time *e.g. I use the skin, but not with the character it's being sold with, likewise I use the morph, but not with the skin it's sold with* , but like I said, I never ever use anything out of the box morph wise. I mix and match everything character-wise like crazy (that includes messing with the skin hue to make it an alien color-- running it through GIMP decompose recompose under CMYK gets an excellent blue skin after one dials the hue a little further)
As for brows, I'm less concerned with extreme realism-- I do a lot of fantasy and anime characters, often with fantastical haircolors. Kinda need brows to match, and asking a PA to supply texture maps to provide all the different brow colors to match Valea's hair products... well, that would be just plain insane. As it is currently, her fantastical hair textures are pretty useless since everyone's brows are painted on (unless you decide that your character is wearing tacky black eyeliner). Also, I was assuming that a G2 brow geograft would be a tad more versatile than the G1 ones and thus could morph (albeit imperfectly) towards or away from the center of Genesis's head, stretch, etc. Though I could be recalling incorrectly, I seem to remember Sickeyield's brow prop for Genesis over at Rendo having a move up and down morph, can't remember if it had any other morphs.
Not to be cruel but... Anytime a market system starts being based around caring for the feelings of the sellers rather than the buyers - serious problems will arise.
That said - rather than stating the point as 'caring about the effort' - Some don't care for that concern as their intended use is different. If there is a significant portion of the consumer base who's need is not being met - that is a serious issue. But if in fact their need is being met, but not how they expect - then it is still a major issue, but one with a ready solution.
Well, I have a different take on this:
I don't mind new base characters coming with optimized UV maps, however, I am very upset that those UV maps don't get any real support from other vendors. For example, I loved Stephanie 6 UV maps for the figure, but I have found exactly 2(two) characters done for that UV map so far. I feel the same way about Giselle 6 , David 5 and Freak 5. Freak 5 - especially so, since his UVs are rightfully very different. I'd love to have a lot more options for those UV sets. But most vendors create characters with V5, M5, Basic G2F and Basic G2M UVs instead.
I actually have an idea on how to fix this:
1) For DAZ: Make character UV sets a freebie or a very low price item released along with all new base characters. (And made retroactively available for all existing bases - maybe a Christmas promotion?)
This will encourage more vendors to create characters for various UVs, so investing in the base character won't be such a waste as it is now - yeah, you do get a very fitting set of UVs, but you will never see more than 2-3 characters released for it anyway, so who cares? And instead, getting the base for the morphs + included high-quality utility maps (like SSS, vein displacement, etc), which can be then mixed with another character created for this UV set will be worthwhile investment! The PA artists win AND DAZ wins here.
2) For all vendors, creating content: MANDATORY listing of UV set used for ALL character products.
It is beyond frustrating to have that information missing, or to have it listed in a round about - take you best guess - sort of way, like "this character will work with any G2F" - is this about morphs? does it mean that it has G2F UV base? or V5 UV base, which also came available with G2F? Again, I vote with my money by skipping on the products which don't provide this information, but this is such a simple step for vendors to boost sales without any work investment! So WHY is this not a standard practice yet? We have gotten so much better with no-texture-renders for 3D model products. It's time UV-set info became just as a widespread standard for characters.
Most G2F characters I've got are for G2F base or V5 UV sets, and I'd actually want to see more variety! At this point I am not getting more characters for those UV sets, unless the character is really something out of the ordinary, because I've got the basics covered and the UV sets do have their limitations.
Actually, not as well as you might think. I've tried that out of desperation, and the results I got were completely and utterly unusable with black artefacts, distortion and weird triangular out of order transplantation of the original map onto a new one.
Actually, not as well as you might think. I've tried that out of desperation, and the results I got were completely and utterly unusable with black artefacts, distortion and weird triangular out of order transplantation of the original map onto a new one.
I've actually gotten good results out of map transfer; you would have to do the transfer by parts of the body like the head, torso, limps in separate passes.
I am sorry, but this attitude is not very sustainable. We are all here to use content for our own artistic expression. Not to help the vendors facilitate theirs. When I look at a character product I see 3 distinct elements for which I give proper credit and admiration for the creator: 1 - the morph, 2 - the overall textures and options diversity (like makeup, body art, etc), 3 - utility textures (like normal maps, SSS maps, displacement maps, etc.). I decide to get the product based on the combination of these things, but it does not mean that I intend to use the product in its pure out-of-the-box state. I intend to use the morph and the textures, but not necessarily together and not necessarily unmodified. If I wanted strictly a copy-paste-only usability, I'd go into scrapbooking, not 3D art. (Nothing wrong with scrapbooking, and I've done that too, it just has a very different approach to artistic creation.)
Sorry, it's not attitude. What is being suggested is simply not how most of our money is made. Sometimes forum suggestions just aren't financially feasible no matter how some want it to be.
SO what are you saying, that you don't want us buying your products if we only want to use one part of it or only use the morph on one character and the skins on another?
I don't think every vendor will please everyone just like not everyone wants to buy every figure that's in the store. We all have to do what is feasible to us.
nm
Sorry, it's not attitude. What is being suggested is simply not how most of our money is made. Sometimes forum suggestions just aren't financially feasible no matter how some want it to be.
Which part of what I suggested goes against the way you make money?
Giving people free or low-cost access to more UVs so that vendors have more incentive to create characters for more custom-made and consequently better-fitting and better-looking UV sets for the morphs they are working with?
or
Listing the UV set in the product description?
I am not sure where the idea of stripping character products of morphs making them textures-only or vice versa - making them morph-only, came from. I don't think even people who are upset with too many UVs are suggesting this strategy.
The problem of the things as they are right now is two-fold:
1) All base figures have unique UVs (even beyond what's strictly necessary in some cases - may or may not be 100% true) which are ONLY available if you buy the full base figure. Therefore, if you like a vendor-provided character created for that UV, you must buy the base too.
2) And this is partially due to the first issue, the highly specific UV sets are not supported, because, guess what, vendors know that if they use the UV set available to most users, they will have a wider customer base, and rightfully so! But that means that the characters they create, even if done for a specific base morph (like Lilith 6 or Stephanie 6 or Giselle6) will still use the base G2F UV set or, an equally freely available V5 UV set created for a different figure altogether! So the vendors are facing a very unpleasant choice:
Work with suboptimal UVs, but have a chance to sell to more customers
or
Choose a better UV set and cut off a bunch of customers who don't want to invest in YET ANOTHER full base character, just to get their hands on the UV set, ONLY to use it for the vendor-provided character.
Add in the confusion about which character is for which UV set and you get A LOT of unhappy customers. And the end results is that all vendors, including DAZ is loosing money this way.
I think he’s saying the overall product if its only textures or only character shapes then the sales become tougher. Most who *can* opt to sell the full package Character with textures, because as one would suspect many customers would be looking for the full kit, its got nice value and appealing. If selling only shapes then one would want to sell many shapes in the package to bring the extra value that is lost by not including textures. Textures without shapes/characters would be even tougher because everything relies on it alone and unless you add allot of alternative textures or have multiple texture sets in the package, it can be even harder to match the value when there are other PAs around them selling both in one kit.
Wait, I was never asking for nor suggesting that they be sold separate, nor does paying for morphs or textures that I don't want bother me (the exception being say-- it's a product that bundles a character's morph + skin with some clothing or clothing textures but no option to purchase both separately)
Which part of what I suggested goes against the way you make money?
Giving people free or low-cost access to more UVs so that vendors have more incentive to create characters for more custom-made and consequently better-fitting and better-looking UV sets for the morphs they are working with?
or
Listing the UV set in the product description?
Neither makes money. Vendors create products because the base shape inspires them to make clothing and characters for it. Those products are sold because how the product looks, not based on any particular UV.
I misread where the topic was getting at. sidetracked with other topics. My mistake.
Neither makes money. Vendors create products because the base shape inspires them to make clothing and characters for it. Those products are sold because how the product looks, not based on any particular UV.
Well, good luck with that approach! :)
But if other vendors have the same attitude, it is not surprising that for the last 6 month I found more reasons NOT to buy the characters I visually liked, but ultimately decide to do without because of UVs or lack of interest in the base character they were created for, even though I liked the look of the derivative.
Other customers here are telling you that they've made similar decisions not to buy things for the same or related reasons. But, hey, if this head-in-the-sand approach IS making you money, then who am I to stop you? :).
Although I am rather curious to know what was your experimental test which has proven to you that a different way of doing things would lead to loss of profit instead of *increase* of profit?
Exactly what i was trying to say. It is absolutely nuts to have to buy an expensive base shape and UV map just for a few characters/textures for it!! In the end, I just say "screw this crap" and haven't bought any besides V6 and i just use my V5 or V4 textures on Genesis 2... or stick to Genesis 1 since its so much simpler and has way cooler shapes like animals and stuff. I feel like Daz is milking us for every penny with all these ridiculous UV maps!
...I agree, at 39.95$ (27.97 for PC members) a pop that can become a rather hefty investment just to have all the different possible UV sets.
What really got me is that the aforementioned Haley and Hayden teen characters required the Steph5 UV, instead of the V4 UV which the Teen Julie/Justin characters used. That to me seemed like it was done more to bolster sales of S5 (personally I found Steph5 to be somewhat a disappointment compared to her Gen4 counterpart who I still use through GenX).
This all this seems to be just one more reversal from the original advantage of the Genesis concept - its versatility.
Interesting also in that the only Gen6 character not mentioned to have her own unique UV set is the only one I purchased, Teen Josie. She is based on the G2F UV, so any skins specifically made for G2F (or V4 as I have the V4 clone for G2F) can be used with her.
The aspect of this discussion is just going in circles. Please break out of the eddy and get the topic back into a civil discussion. If it continues as it is we will have to consider locking the thread.