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...that crossed my mind as well as Mei Lin is supposedly either Chinese or Korean (not sure). While Imperial China had their courtesans, they were not "Geisha". The Princess Asia outfit would be more fitting.
"Lin" and "Mei" are both Romanizations for the Chinese surnames. If she were Korean her names would be more properly romanized as "Im" and "Mae"... though the odds are that her name would actually be Kim. Supposedly her sculptor is Korean, but my take of Mei is that she's a westernized fantasy girl whose combined body proportions and measurements are much closer to the typical Caucasian "ideal" than what you're likely to find in any one of the major Asian ethnic groups.
http://www.daz3d.com/new-releases/mei-lin-6-geisha-make-ups and this is what I mean, without Mei Lin poor Aiko 6 while wearing the Kimono I bought her happily had to borrow Aiko 5's geisha mats
as was already implicitly suggested by someone else, those who just want the UV map would probably just buy the base character by itself. I don't keep my eyes on the Top 30 products, do the base characters pop up there a lot?
It just occurred to me, maybe instead of offering the UV sets for free, DAZ would consider selling the UV sets by themselves for a lowered price. Maybe even in a bundle. Like a Genesis 2 Female UV bundle, with all UV maps currently in use.
as was already implicitly suggested by someone else, those who just want the UV map would probably just buy the base character by itself. I don't keep my eyes on the Top 30 products, do the base characters pop up there a lot?
It just occurred to me, maybe instead of offering the UV sets for free, DAZ would consider selling the UV sets by themselves for a lowered price. Maybe even in a bundle. Like a Genesis 2 Female UV bundle, with all UV maps currently in use.
Why not, that's basically what PA's like Slosh does, anyway. :)
as was already implicitly suggested by someone else, those who just want the UV map would probably just buy the base character by itself. I don't keep my eyes on the Top 30 products, do the base characters pop up there a lot?
It just occurred to me, maybe instead of offering the UV sets for free, DAZ would consider selling the UV sets by themselves for a lowered price. Maybe even in a bundle. Like a Genesis 2 Female UV bundle, with all UV maps currently in use.
I think this would be better than the present situation, but I think that unless the UVs are made available for free, it will not solve the issue I've documented above (where most vendors still create characters for V5 and Basic G2F UVs - because those ARE free and come with DS and G2 Essentials...), to the point that even the base character bundles come with characters NOT created for the base character UVs.
I think this would be better than the present situation, but I think that unless the UVs are made available for free, it will not solve the issue I've documented above (where most vendors still create characters for V5 and Basic G2F UVs - because those ARE free and come with DS and G2 Essentials...), to the point that even the base character bundles come with characters NOT created for the base character UVs.
In the end, I doubt very much DAZ is going to give up a source of revenue. Whether you buy a Pro Bundle or you buy the base figure or the starter bundle that lies in between, you are still buying the base and it's unique UV. Yes, PA's like Slosh sell UV sets but keep in mind, DAZ get's a cut.
Not arguing that the bundles do come with characters that do not use the unique UV set. In fact, I thank you for pointing it out. I may look at a few of the other bundles more closely now. I've skipped many of them because I'm not into the "which uv goes with which character" guessing game when it comes to buying.
...given the price of Slosh's legacy shapes bundles, I'd have no issue ove paying for a set of, say 3, 4, or 5 G2F UVs compared to having to plunk down hundreds for all the base figures. There needs to be some form of a compromise, particularly for those of us who rely more on morph resource kits and "dial spinning" for our characters than basing them on a specific set character figure.
Either that, or Dz needs to develop a useful UV mapping plugin so we can map our characters and create our own skins for them.
There is a compromise... just don't buy the textures using the new UVs until DAZ drops the price. Because if there's one thing one that's an absolute constant with DAZ, it's that they ultimately WILL drop the price to at least 65%-70% off within a few months of product going out of "new release" status. That's the path I followed with V6, M6, Stephanie 6, Olympia 6, Girl 6 and Gia, eventually picking up the pro-bundles for the first three in the $29-$39 range, the Pro Bundle for Olympia for the ridiculous price of $16.53 (the result of two overlapping sales, IIRC) and the starter bundles for the last two for $14 and $20. On the other hand, I bought the Teen Josie, Teen Jayden and Aiko 6 Pro Bundles on day one, and splurged on Lilith because her Pro Bundle ended up being about $35. And I'm currently quite happily passing on Gianni, Lee, Giselle and now Mei Lin... and all their "dedicated" product... until such time as DAZ ends up offering them at a price I'm willing to pay.
...I rarely purchase pro bundles anymore as a lot of the "extras" include content (particularly clothing) I rarely if ever would use. If the base figures were offered at Fastgrab price, I'd consider possibly getting couple of them but not at almost 30$ each (30% PC discount). As I have mentioned the only Genesis/G2 Pro bundle I felt was worth getting was the YT5s as it included no fantasy or skimpwear and the character maps were based on the V4 UV map which made them incredibly versatile especially since the UV was already included with the Genesis Essentials at no extra cost.
It was disappointing that we had to purchase the V4 autofit/UV clone for G2F separately and then needed to purchase an additional tool to "one click" apply a V4 skin to G2F. It's called the 'nickel and dime" principle which is what the likes of Apple Computer and the airlines do.
The fact, as was pointed out, that most of the characters included in these bundles are not based on the new UV, but the base G2F one, is what really begs the entire question of "why all the separate UV maps?"
Being on a very tight budget like many others here, I have to be really choosy as to what I purchase to make sure it is something that fits with the type of work I do and will be used.
Nothing stops you from creating your own UV sets KK or your own skins. Once you get the UV set set up how you want then just go into the Surfaces tab and under the menu select the Load UV Set, name it. Save it out as an UV asset via the File menu and you have it done.
The problem is even bigger in my view. Not only are there a million different maps, all of them have the exact same weaknesses. There is roughly a polygon or two difference here or there in the way the UV maps are being cut, but in the end all of them have the same issues:
1. The Face is nearly 3x to 4x the resolution of other body parts
2. This is especially annoying where the face meets the neck, which is extremely low in resolution especially compared to the face.
3. Just like the neck area, the torso area really lacks in detail because the map is too small for that area even at 4096x4096
4. The back of the head is another area where there is far too little resolution.
5. The torso and limbs maps aren't the same resolution either. If you build your own textures you will know that the top part of the thigh that is included with the torso map is higher in resolution than the lower thigh which is part of the limbs map.
6. The ears map is extremely high in resolution, maybe even more than the face. There is no good reason for this. Elf ears be darned, I'd much rather use this space for something more important than ears. The ears map could be much smaller in my opinion.
I've been toying around with creating my own UV maps, starting over from scratch so that I can more evenly distribute the resolution. To me, necks are important and so are the smalls of the back. While a perfect resolution match-up is impossible, I think that by adding a fifth map to the four standard ones, but moving the neck and back of the head and the ears to a separate map of their own would allow a slightly better resolution for the torso. Oh, or maybe another idea.
What if the maps were different resolutions? Okay, so the face map is 4096x4096. Fine. But shouldn't then the torso map be 6000x6000, and the limbs map as well to keep up with the resolution of the face? If we did this then the face wouldn't be so extremely out of range with the other maps. Would other people want this as much as I do?
If we were to continue with the 4096 limit then adding a fifth map is the only solution I can think of, porting the neck, back of the head, ears and fingernails to a separate page leaving room for better limbs and torsos seems right. I just don't know if Daz3d will support the sale of such maps that deviate so greatly from the standard cuts.
But at least such a map would actually offer something none of the current maps can offer.
I too have been toying with procedurally generated skin elements that can then be combined in layers to make convincing skin. I've made some good headway. In theory I could do what Ramwolf suggests, and I probably will very soon. But I wanted to get the word out there that there are some people who really want this fixed asap if possible by a professional, not some hack like me.
Did I yet mention how much I hate the resolution mismatch with Daz figures? If not, let me state that I really really really really really hate the mismatch. The only part of a daz model that is safe to render in close up is the face, and that is unfortunate. It is one of the reasons the high end users say Daz figures are low in quality, it's the darned uv mapping looking like crap in so many important areas.
So please, if anyone is thinking about completely redoing the UV maps, you have my full support so long as it improves the current situation.
...creating skins I understand, how does one go about setting up a UV set?
I'll further this with - It annoys me allot that the arms are not symmetrically placed on the UVs, this is a disaster for UV based 3d model symmetrical painting, and a big annoyance to me in Photoshop. Not that I finish off with symmetrical textures, I always randomize it with details and blemishes, but its such a pain. Its also an issue in Garibaldi, and I imagine the same in any texture painting apps on models.
The second point Id raise is both UV stretching and clothing fit issues, the arms are literally horizontal in default position, most of the time the arms are down on human figures, when they are down the textures/Uv's are stretching. With clothing fits the shoulder seams are distorting horribly and clothing looks poorly fitted because the arms are, in most cases, much lower in renders. Ive seen interesting game models, and the big namers seem to have the arms 45 degrees down, preserving the UVs and clothing fits at its average. Perhaps though, this would just destroy the arms when raised above the head... Just something Ive noticed. I suppose for weight mapping the figure its much better horizontal
Hey, that's neat! I thought D|S doesn't have tools for working on UVs?
Hey, that's neat! I thought D|S doesn't have tools for working on UVs?It doesn't, and therein lies the rub.
The only tool Daz Studio includes is a means to save a UV set and then reload it for Genesis. Something I've done myself to add a Kids 4 UV for G2F. The problem there is that actually making a UV set can be a very long process, even for experienced modelers, and making a GOOD UV takes a lot of practice and skill.
It becomes even more complex working on models which don't have the same vertex count as the original figure (such as Genesis to G2 etc), as you'll have to interpolate between areas by eye, which can be a daunting task for the best of us. There's some great tools which make it a little bit easier, but there's no denying that a good UV map is an art all of its own.
HeraldOfFire could you direct me to a tutorial to add Kids 4 UV to G2F ?
Thanks!
And, as mentioned earlier, it's also a long and difficult process. Sometimes needing to manually move each vertex into position to remove stretching. That's quite time consuming when you consider figures like Genesis may have tens of thousands of vertices!
Isn't that effectively what Map Transfer does? It doesn't actually add the UV B option to Figure A, but you still need to own UV B to be able to do it, so I'm not clear what it solves.
What I'm proposing is really the inverse of Map Transfer: so that instead of converting each map from M4 to M5 to use on G2M on a case-by-case basis, the mutual map (M5) shared by Genesis and G2M is used as an offset template to remap the G2M mesh to the M4 map, so that any M4 map can be used on the figure without the hassle of converting every map for every character.
Odd question. Does anyone know why DAZ chose to go with the UV mapping they use now?
I think the work flow for making a new UV map for a character would run something like this
1) take your base mesh into what ever program you use to make your morphs and clothing and anything else you make and morph the heck out of the mesh
2) if that program does UV's then set up your unwrap lines and unwrap it and (takes ALLOT of practice and as a novice of UV'ing I know how tricky it can be)
3) save out newly morphed (just don't overwrite the original) and UV'd mesh (which will double it's usefulness as the morph target AND the UV map you will bring into DAZ Studio)
Because they turned around one day and said "###! We're only making two meshes right now (Genesis and G2) and we're giving BOTH of them away! What can we stick on there that we can bill people for?" :cheese: <
Realistically, I think they DID end up needing multiple UVs for Genesis as its shape could literally be all over the map... (and yes, that pun was intentional.) However, with the exception of the Creature Creators and possibly Girl 6, I haven't seen much out of the G2s that a single pair of male/female UV couldn't have handled. In particular, the differences between V6, G2f, Lilith, Olympia and Steph 6 have been pretty much invisible, while Gianni and Lee would have been far better serviced in distinguishing themselves from M6 by getting rid of the man-boobs rather than yet another pair of unloved and unwanted UV sets that will end up on the scrap heap of DAZ history.
Because they turned around one day and said "###! We're only making two meshes right now (Genesis and G2) and we're giving BOTH of them away! What can we stick on there that we can bill people for?" :cheese: <
Realistically, I think they DID end up needing multiple UVs for Genesis as its shape could literally be all over the map... (and yes, that pun was intentional.) However, with the exception of the Creature Creators and possibly Girl 6, I haven't seen much out of the G2s that a single pair of male/female UV couldn't have handled. In particular, the differences between V6, G2f, Lilith, Olympia and Steph 6 have been pretty much invisible, while Gianni and Lee would have been far better serviced in distinguishing themselves from M6 by getting rid of the man-boobs rather than yet another pair of unloved and unwanted UV sets that will end up on the scrap heap of DAZ history.
I understand somewhat the need for unique UV's for the characters with wide variances from the base model (in this case G2F/M bases). However, I really don't understand why the weird, multiple UV maps the even the base Gen 4 models, Genesis and the rest all have.
Zygote created the P4 figures. I single uv map. Zygote/DAZ created the Gen 1/2 figures. 2 maps (head and body to put it simply). Then we had the Gen 3 maps. Pelt mapping, yes. But you still had mainly head and body maps (think eye maps began in this generation as well). No dispute on the fact that you truly needed to use the individual template to get the best results so that when applied brows, lips, nipples and navels all ended up in the right place and stretching was kept to a minimum.
Then DAZ gets to Gen 4. First time I looked at the V4 uv maps all I could think of was "what a mess". Is there a rhyme or reason to the placement in the uv maps?
While I disagree with the placement of the arms as they aren't symmetrically placed for texturing purposes, and it sucks about the back of the head not sharing the face template, I do agree with the separation, "Limbs" "Torso" "Face" etc. The separation is to allow for higher resolution textures that most PCs can handle. In one single template I'm not sure we would even have 1/3rd the resolution we have today if it were all in one 4096x4096.
The mouth and eyes templates could certainly be merged. Its unnecessary to go higher than 2040x2040, as it is many artists go lower when texturing those, I prefer 2040px, but its understandable. There is room for optimization, but I think all a separate single full template locked at 4096px would just be degrading texture quality far too much. 8192x8192 is still so far not been implemented. Could be done, but may impact usability for some users.
I believe that at the time V4 was release Poser, at least the Mac version, could not take maps over 4,000 pixels square. Even 4,096 produced weird results (I have seen screen shots). It's also well to remember that when the split first occurred, the head maps were usually smaller than the body maps - it is consumer demand that has led to their being the same resolution.
I never said a single uv map was optimal. I can even say for sure the basic separate head and body map are completely optimal. What I don't find optimal is the current uv set up that began with Gen 4 and has continued. So what makes it optimal compared to say V1 or even V3's uv's?
One obvious benefit is when you consider make-up and tattoo options. keeping the actual texture resolution on the model constant, swapping out the limb map for nail colours or the torso map for a body tattoo is more efficient that having a single map for both. That's also a reason to have separate maps for eyes and teeth, and for transparencies, even if they could be fitted onto a single image without sacrificing any resolution (for given image size limits).
And, as mentioned earlier, it's also a long and difficult process. Sometimes needing to manually move each vertex into position to remove stretching. That's quite time consuming when you consider figures like Genesis may have tens of thousands of vertices!
...unless you have UV Mapper Pro (around 60$) you don't get the full toolset. I've tried to use the mapping function in Hexagon but again, the application itself is unstable, and the UV mapping tool is not a very good one compared to that of other modelling software. Considering that creating a UV map is such an extremely difficult process, one would want to have the best tools he or she can get.
As noted above, since the variance between a number of the character models is so slight along the issues that were pointed out a little earlier concerning map transition zones and map resolution, again it begs the question "why a different one for each character model (and why was Josie the only one based on the G2F UV)?"
The UV was optimized for each character for those different characters for the differences in the characters and Josie was a PA buyout, not a DAZ-created character.
...OK so next question, has anyone tried applying the Geisha skins to the base G2F and/or V6? Would like to see how good (or bad) it looks before I plop money down on the Gesha bundle as the rest of the products will work (even the poses, they my need a minor adjustment here or there).
The UV was optimized for each character for those different characters for the differences in the characters and Josie was a PA buyout, not a DAZ-created character.
...still doesn't explain why there should be such differences.
So who was the PA who originally created Josie if it wasn't Daz and why does his/her name not appear alongside "Daz Originals" in the credits like for other "Daz Original" buyouts?