How come the Daz home page has no mention of Carrara?
donato
Posts: 22
I use Carrara to make photorealistic pictures for the marketing department where I work. I work in engineering. A new guy in marketing wanted to buy the software and learn himself how to do it. I told him he could get it at the Daz3d website. He said he went to the website and there was nothing about Carrara on the home page. I told him he had to use their search to find it. He said that when a company stops promoting a software, it usually means they are going to get rid of it.
Now, that thought didn't occur to me, but the question of why Daz doesn't promote Carrara on their main page did. So why don't they? Why is it difficult to find out about Carrara on the Daz website?
Is it something so obvious but I'm too dense to see it?
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The eternally asked question! ;-)
Now, keep in mind that I have no connection to DAZ or inside information, but I think Carrara is safe for now. They just posted a thread about an update beta for C8.5 Pro users a few weeks ago. My opinion is that they wouldn't spend the development dollars on dead software.
As to the home page thing, Carrara costs money. You can get a basic DAZ Studio version for free. It's kind of like how they market razors. The sell the initial razor handle and a couple refill blades relatively cheaply, then they sock it to you when you have to buy just the refills. So, in essence, DAZ 3D gives away the renderer, and sells you the models, the textures, the props and the plugins to use in the render software. That is how they make most of their money.
The issue with Studio is that it looks nice and does an outstanding job at what it is supposed to do, but once you get into it, it is really fairly limited if you want to do anything besides using stuff that is pre-made. Now just to clarify here, I'm not one of those snobs that belittles those that use pre-made content. I'm not. I use it all the time, but my pictures and animations usually have custom made items by me, or use effects not possible in Studio. I find it liberating to be able to have a library of high quality figures and props to use, but at the same time, have the freedom to add my own without being tied to a store for all my needs.
What is most unpleasant and in extreme cases of the misleading advertizing, it is this !
It is as if they compared a Mini Cooper with a Rolls Royce, but no mention of Carrara in the list…
I believe, and it's only my guess, that a couple of years ago DAZ came under new management and made a conscious decision to change course. The new main focus was on selling content, not software. All you have to do is look at the newly designed website, where content is VERY prominently displayed, and see that software is not what they promote. And also look at how they are now giving away, or almost giving away, their software.
Now if you were a content company, whose primary focus is to sell content, what's the most important thing to you? Well, customers must have some software to use their content in. So the secondary focus is to provide, at least cost possible, some software that supports the content.
I assume that one reason why a company would decide to no longer focus on selling software is that, especially for 3D software, the development costs and development time are astronomical. Just implementing something like Bullet cloth takes some VERY skilled people, and it can take years to finalize just one feature like cloth. And all that time you're paying developers, and getting no revenue. And generally, the folks who buy the content aren't interested in a very expensive software, so the company ends up putting lots of money into a product that doesn't return a lot of revenue.
Content, on the other hand, can be developed by 3rd parties, and DAZ sells it for a percentage. All they need to do is to review the content and do QA on it, and within a relatively short period get revenues without the huge time and resource expenditures of software development.
When you give away your software for free, it's pretty clear that your goal is not to gain direct revenue from software sales. The software is just a way to get people to buy content.
Personally, I think it's pretty clear that Carrara is only being developed to maintain its usefulness as a platform for content sales. It's been over a year since 8.5 came out, and we only received a BETA last week with NO new features or significant improvements, other than to the content management system. Because content is what brings revenue.
It seems fairly obvious to me at least that Carrara has been on life support for quite a while, and unless DAZ decides to get back into the software business, it will get very little attention in coming years, if it even survives. Which is unfortunate because it's a nice application for working with human figures. And there aren't many applications out there for doing that.
Hiya!
And (probably because I just took 3 T3's for my fibromyalgia), on a positive spin...maybe they are doing it because they are hard at work on a new product that mashes Hexagon, Carrara and DAZ 3D together into an orgasmic flurry of awesomeness! By 'downplaying' Carrara, Hexagon etc. they are trying to get folks to focus on DAZ 3D for now...so that when Hexadazrrara comes out it will be all new and shiny and everyone will want to buy it!
...one can dream...
^_^
Paul L. Ming
The code bases for Carrara and DAZ 3D are so different that merging them is unlikely.
Since Hex and Carrara were developed by Eovia, I suspect that it would be easier (still a Herculean task) to merge Hex and Carrara. Instead of actually merging the software, I think they should take some of the features that Hex has and Carrara does not, and add those to Carrara.
Hiya!
Honestly, I was mostly joking. Mostly. But yes, I have thought of what an absolutely KILLER 3d package DAZ could make if they had the manpower and desire to do it. What I think they'd have to do is more or less "re-write" the codebase; basically, create a whole new program. But, with all the assets they have available, I can see it being worth their wile. I envision a multi-tiered package approach. They could have Hexdazrrara Lite, Hexdazrrara Expanded and Hexdazrrara Professional. The Lite version would be, effectively, DAZ 3d with the tools to import, texture and drag-n-drop mocap animations (maybe some tweekability of the animations) and basic rendering via "preset" choices mostly . The Expanded version would add in basic tools to manipulate objects (simple modeling, some UV, some more in-depth rendering options, more animation tools, etc). The Professional version would have all the bells and whistles they can cram into it...the "whole shebang", basically.
Personally, I use Softimage XSI and am *still* trying to come to grips with Lightwave (since v9). Likewise, Blender has been on my computer since back when it was still owned by NAN and used as the primary game creation tool for the NeoGeo console (yes, dating myself here...)...but the main Blender developers insanely aggravating refusal to change (or at least add as an option!) the workflow and GUI to a more mainstream method drives me crazy!
Anyway, with Softimage basically no more, and Autodesk owning more or less all the other "top" 3d programs, and MAXON's Cinema4D being really nice ...but waaaaay overpriced to get the full package (and stupid-high upgrade pricing), Houdini (expensive for company...not so much for Freelance/Indie) is really cool...and confusing in so many ways. Then their's Lightwave; a venerable program, and it shows. I had high hopes for Lightwave CORE (pretty much the ONLY reason I bought into v9 was because I would have gotten CORE as a free upgrade)...but LW killed it, deciding that the more "make-up and plastic surgery" method would be enough to keep Lightwave "current" (hint to Newtek: it's really not working out that way...really...sorry...).
So...DAZ...GREAT opportunity to take some great program ideas and implement into a new 3D package. Alas, I think they are quite happy 'just' selling content...and that's probably the actual reason for Carrara, Hexagon and Bryce disappearing from the site. :(
This graphic is very interesting, isn't it.
I can imagine only two possible explanations.
DAZ is selling Carrara, or they decided that the bugs are too numerous and difficult to fix and so they're shelving it.
Either way, probably not good for Carrara. :-(
Very sad.
Actually what I think they should do is create more seamless bridges between all 3 the same way photoshop and Z brush work so well with several apps, and keep squashing bugs, improving UI and functionality in all the 3 at the same time. Should be cheaper than creating a whole new super app and they'll keep the user base for all 3 happy while staying happy themselves selling as much content as they want. I would want to think that they're not naive at Daz, that they have a serious game changer in the works but it's proving more difficult to wrap it up than they thought. If I'm wrong on this, it would be very depressing!
If your analysis proves to be the fact, then going open source with Carrara might be an option for Daz. They have one strong thing going which could be as potentially powerful as the content store- a willing and enthusiastic user base and energetic forum. We've seen lot's of independent attempts to create added functionalities for Carrar here, from Fenric's plugins, to Fractal Dimensia's experimentations with Pycloid and audio driven animation, to Sighman's fabulous Octane Plugin, and now String Theory is tackling dynamic clothing. If Daz is not so keen or lacking the capacity for active development, they could throw open the source code, concentrate on improving the content loading and management side of things and leave most of the other stuff to the community to do. The user base would grow and the content store will sell more. But they would have to do the math and come at it with some serious lateral thinking, which they are obviously not incapable of, having been able to give Daz Studio out for free and Hexagon and Bryce for almost free. Not sure if I've made much sense but the thought crossed my mind and I felt to share it.
I have been using the new site and very pleased with it, however I was surprised at how hard it was to find Carrara or any other software without wading though the scrolling product bars. When all else fails, use the Search field in the upper right of most pages to find what you are looking for. DAZ has always been good at adjusting to its customer base so you might also consider letting them know about issues like this when you discover them. DAZ 3D Contact Us
Well, maybe they could choose to open source. But the sole purpose, IMO, for their software at this point is to have a vehicle for users to put DAZ content in and make renders. And it is critical that the software is compatible with whatever DAZ develops. Otherwise they'd be making content, and the open source community would make changes to the software that DAZ has little control over, and might not work well with their new content development.
Seems to me it's in their best interest to keep the software in-house and under their control. Can you imagine if DAZ developed Genesis figures and the open source community didn't like how it was done and made it incompatible with the software?
That feature comparison graphic with the DAZ Studio and the other software titles that omits Carrara has been around for months.
The reason I suspect Carrara is not listed on it, is because DAZ is trying to compare Studio favorable with the "competitors," and since Carrara is owned by DAZ it is not technically a competitor.
The ridiculous part of that chart is putting Studio on that list, as anybody that has any real working knowledge of any of those other programs will know what a joke it is comparing Studio to them. The better piece of DAZ software to compare against the "big boy" software on that list is Carrara. Sure, some of the snobs will still laugh at the comparison, but feature for feature, Carrara is a more legitimate competitor for that kind of chart than Studio.
Anybody seriously comparison shopping and looking at the other titles on that list as a possible option will very quickly discard Studio from consideration after a little research. I mean, you don't look at LW and its features and then decide you want a software title that is essentially a virtual photo-studio and not much else.
Yeah, I've attached an answer for that...
Yeah, I've attached an answer for that...
That's great! You should submit that to marketing. Maybe that will get their attention! :)
Territan, that made my day. :) Still chuckling. If only...
It is/was for this reason(OP and replies) and the way DAZ has treated Carrara with the new site, that I recently held off purchasing C8.5 Pro on sale and one plug-in for it. It also appears threre was upgrade for existing C8 users(stated in another thread) but the sites upgrade options didn't seem to work or were disabled.
I continue to use C8.1 Pro and hope DAZ will see that Carrara can import and use most of what is sold here to a MUCH greater effect than Studio(imho). I would have thought this would be an easy return on investment through Carrara for developement.
Aside from being a free content render app, only two reasons I can think of why Studio has priority support over Carrara; codebase and/or barley anyone at DAZ actually use Carrara. Both programs also seem to be very close to or equal in learning curves to acheive similar render(s)/animation results.
I agree, the application comparison graphic/chart of DAZ Studio is misleading. No way it can compare those features in those programs without alot more info. I'm guessing someone other than an actual user of 3DCG software set that one up.
Incomplete and misleading and probably not by accident. But if a user was so novice to the field that they would think Daz Studio could be compared in any way with Maya then this person wouldn't be ready for Maya anyhow. I do think DS is far more suited to the newer user than the true high end applications. Most new users probably download one of the big boys at some point and immediately find it daunting so they abandon it. They want to consider other packages but they are influenced away from it by peers who tell them its C4d or nothing. For a new user to see a comparison chart that basically tells them they can have all the relevant tools they would have used in Maya available to them for free in Daz Studio with a much shallower learning curve...sounds too good to be true, because it is, but new users are easy bait.
Basically, get them using Daz Studio, for any reason, even if the pretense is somewhat falsified. We just need to get them hooked. The more people who download the more who will eventually decide to stay. From a business standpoint there is no law against a little truth stretching.
Fluffing. It's not just for porn anymore! ;-)
It's always been that way- from the very first day things were bartered for, way back in the mists of history.
It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it!
Agree. The chart is probably there to hook new users. But I think when they find out how misleading the chart was in feature comparisons, they might rethink staying with Studio. And Carrara, which no one will know about except from word of mouth or searches because the site doesn't display/link the product(s) on the home page. Not a rant, just trying to get Carrara back in the spotlight somehow. :)
Yeah, I've attached an answer for that...
Well done!
One should all put this image in our signature to protest !
That chart is ridiculous and simplistic.
I bet a lot of LW users would be surprised to learn that they suddenly can't texture...anything at all! :)
Okay, sorry for snarky remark, carry on!
Thanks. Unfortunately signature graphics are limited to 480x80, so that full table is a no-go. Try this pared-down and shrunk version which is just small enough to squeeze in.
And yes, I know, a single-line comparison graphic out of context seems silly. Fortunately the context is almost impossible to avoid here. (I say almost because, as you know, there are none so blind...)
(Edited to remove acute quotitis)
Thanks. Unfortunately signature graphics are limited to 480x80, so that full table is a no-go. Try this pared-down and shrunk version which is just small enough to squeeze in.
And yes, I know, a single-line comparison graphic out of context seems silly. Fortunately the context is almost impossible to avoid here. (I say almost because, as you know, there are none so blind...)
(Edited to remove acute quotitis)
Thanks! I'll stick it in my signature if it's okay by you!
Me also !
Me three!....(or four?) because we love 'em @ Daz like that!
Wait, Wait......(waves hands in the air) ...... I want to join in!
and shouldn't it mention Carrara's Dynamic Hair, Realistic Sky, Tree Factory, Terraine creation, Shader creation, Particles, Forcess, Bullet physics and soft bodies ? - stuff which a lot of people would not realise can be done out of the box -
I want to join in. I want to join in.
Is this what the kids today call a meme?
;-)