any benefit to using cararra's native rigging?
Mistara
Posts: 38,675
i was thinking how Poser 7 rigging iz understood by CA and DS.
but is there any benefit to rigging something natively in carrara? (other than the practice) :)
sometimes clothes don't fit correctly, i think, DS uses cm, maybe the units has something to do with it?
where does poser native units fit into the matrix? :lol:
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not for DAZ stuff though you can use attach skeleton to conform stuff you model on the fly or hairs and stuff
is good for your own models but does not work in Poser or DAZ (will iClone)
Sorry my confusion Wendy, are you saying that iClone recognizes and respects Carrara rigging? Or is that misprint, and you meant something different. Because that would shock me if so.
Yes it does
I rig stuff often for iClone in carrara esp spring props, DAZ studio rigged ones bunch up, carrara ones work out the box, with nla clips too
so does Blender if collada exported BTW
and of course Unity, Unreal etc it is only DAZ and Poser that do not as no viable animated FBX import
collada will import into DAZ but not save rigged and animated.
Wow that's actually really surprising but very cool.
Slightly off topic but semi-related... Now if only Carrara's own bone structure and rigging supported multiple children and parents like 3D Studio Max does... More for multiple linked mechanical moving parts... ie: a parent bone can have multiple child bones, a child bone could have multiple parent bones... all at the same time.
Theres some models out there that'd really benefit from this. Seen some demo clips of machinery and robotic bipeds working and moving realistically all connnected within 3d studio max's rigging system when being posed and animated.. stuff like multiple hydraulic pistons and appendages one connected to the other, etc... Move a robotic arm and all the hydraulic pistons associated from the wrist going right up into the shoulder accordingly.
The other funny Rigging difference betweeen Studio and Poser vs daz, using Poser's own pre-triax weight mapped system (aka Victoria / Michael Generation1 - 4) , an awesome model like DZFire's Cyber V4 http://www.daz3d.com/cyborg-version-4 , The pistons use point-at in both Poser and Studio and do follow one another, but in Carrara it just don't work. Even trying adding in manual point and follow targets won't do the trick...
Ahh well...
Cool to hear about iClone and Carrara's native rigging tho! (just wish Carrara had as I stated above). Also neat to find out about modeling and rigging hair in carrara. Learn something new every day :)
Carrara does support multiple children. Otherwise you could not make the fingers. Just click on the mother bone again.
so, rigging stuff in Carrara makes it content for iClone also? would count that as a benefit!
rigging a door with the hotpoint near the hinge, door would swing open correctly in iclone without further ado?
i don't have iclone though.
Yup, and you don't need Carrara rigging for that if you have seperate objects in the instances list. This is handy for when you either model yourself a few quick props or download and import a bought or freebie model thats not Poser/Studio rigged (.3ds, .obj, etc) , set the import options to create individual pieces out of the different named item groups versus 1 solid object. (ok this cn give you a large long instances parts list pending on the item) however you can click and locate said item like a door or whatever that pivots on a hinge / joint so you can rotate it.
Side note - being able to move and set the hotpoint for almost any item is one of my favorite features in carrara. helps even with those pesky poser type props that sometimes have hotpoints nowheres near the item's center and otherwise a pain to reposition and rotate.
I know that you are really asking about rigging and iclone, but just an FYI that you would probably get better results using movement constraints in the properties tray and adjusted hot points to construct a swinging door (or similar mechanical relationship with no blending) rather than rigging.
I sometimes make props for iclone using Carrara.
You can add bones to an object, animate the object along the Carrara timeline and export it as .fbx.
When you bring it into 3dXchange, you tick the 'import animation' box (if that's what it's called) and your animation becomes a 'perform' action on the iprop.
It should be possible to put multiple 'performs' onto one iprop but I've never tested my idea of what would need to be done. Not all your Carrara animation will be recognised - scaling an object to grow in size over time won't be picked up by Iclone, for example.
Using Carrara's rigging is good for animating characters made from metaballs or from Sculptris.
Being able to detach the skeleton is good sometimes (although you will lose all constraints and weight-painting, so beware).
What I'm thinking of is: you can make a figure in Sculptris and put in a quick skeleton to see how it works. Then you can build low-poly clothing which will cover most of the figure. Take the skeleton out, delete all the Sculptris polygons that will be hidden by the clothes. Fit the clothes to the figure and put the skeleton back in again.
OK it's a bit mad but I did it once! (Actually, such a figure could be put into Iclone).
I dug up a link to an earlier video where I show props in Carrara and Hexagon being used in Iclone.
It starts as an attempt to show how an opening flower could be made then gets a bit mad, showing other stuff I had lying around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPtVqcziRRI
Marcus that is cool :) That's really interesting and useful to know Carrara rigging can be used elsewhere, never would have guessed. I don't have iclone myself, but it's good to know for future reference.
Thanks Jonstark. The video was prompted by someone asking if an opening flower could be made for iclone. It was early days for me with iclone but I tacked on a number of trial renders. It might interest you that the dancing girl is DAZ's Genesis imported and given an iclone mocap.
I solved this sort of
export animated figure as a duf scene from DS4.7 and import into C8,5
A saved NLA clip works on a new cyber V4 loaded from runtime too
so you may need to build up a little figure specific library for her.
awww. was checking out the iClone indigo bundle. requires internet to activate.
my main rig is isolated from internet hazards, like windows updates :lol: .
my friend's brother works at a civil engineering company. their compies aren't even local networked. iz sneakernet.
Yes iClone needs an internet connection regulary for content verification and installation too.
You can work offline otherwise but not indigo verification.
I survived years on a usb 3G dongle as it does not use much data doing so, just a DRM check, but a connection needed.
Is not needed for normal use, just setting up, installing content etc and sending to indigo.
Octane render requires it too.
Still too much of a secret project to go into great detail, but I have a product in the works that has been rigged in Carrara and the benefits are amazing compared to the original intent, which was going to be just for constrained rotations. Well before I ever added the constraints, I saved it and just started monkeying around with the model for my own fun - you know... just playing. Well it turned out to be really cool how I can actually scale one part of the model via its bone individually from the rest of the model! So I still haven't added constraints yet, as I'm not sure I want any on the actual model, itself... but will likely offer presets of it with constraints applied to those - to be used for specific tasks.
I haven't gone into too much practice with major complexities of weight mapping in Carrrara yet. Haven't had the need, since everything I've done so far was really simple to complete. But I've done a bit of research a while back on the new Triax (Genesis) rigging in DS 4+, and it just keeps on getting better and better as the developers keep tweaking on it. As opposed to being dictated by grouping of body parts, like the
Carrara bone painting can be really, really simple, mainly because it works almost exactly as one might expect it to work - especially as far as painting out the bones. Just point and click. Triax bones don't seem that easy since they don't orient themselves as you expect them to when first putting them in place. But then they orient themselves very nicely with a simple command from the interface. They really are easy to work with after a very small amount of practice. I haven't been doing that lately, so I'm out of practice. But it's one of those things that becomes a simple endeavor once you take the patience to complete a project or two using the system - that goes for both Carrara and DS.
Hmm you've piqued my curiosity about the secret project Dart :)
as Scooby Doo would say "Recret?"
Say, I've actually come to this thread for an entirely different reason, so I'm going to pick that up in a separate post all its own ;)
(see below)
Using DAZ 3D figures is an excellent way to make our own character animations without the need to actually create our own models and animation rig setups. I know this because this is what I have been devoting most of my Carrara time to since I've purchased it, early in 2010. But what about the more popular 3D animation methods used in studios which do create their own characters and rigs?
Carrara's bone rigging is excellent, and the developers were intent to give us all of the tools we need to take advantage of the popular animation-creation techniques. To help illustrate this, they've also included an example character rig to play with and get to know everything you need to know about setting something like this up by yourself. I have said in my "What is Carrara?" video that the preset scenes and objects are a wonderful way to learn, and this subject is no exception.
If you have installed the Native Carrara files, look in the "Scenes" tab and scroll down to the "Animation" category. The image below shows the CAR file I'm talking about here: "Character".
This scene has a fully rigged character setup for hand key framing animation with full Inverse Kinematics to help us get used to knowing how to set up such a thing. Sure, it's a simple character model. But that's the intent - to show off how to set up a character rig with IK onto an original model, complete with weight mapping applied, etc., not to actually provide a superbly detailed figure - that you must make yourself!
The techniques used in applying the IK may also be used on DAZ 3D and other figure models as well, to help use this function to help in animation posing - a very popular setup.
If you know that you are going to render an original model in Carrara, then Carrara's native rigging can also have several other advantages.
1) The rigging process is generally less tedious than some other programs because you do not have to assign polygon groups to bodyparts in the base mesh before rigging.
2) If you create a morph in the base mesh before rigging, then you will be able to edit the model in the posed position using the animation mode in the top right of the vertex modeler. Such morphs can be animated. You can also adjust joints, etc in posed positions with the weightmap tools.
EDIT: 3) it is easy to detach the skeleton from the mesh, make changes to the mesh, and reattach the skeleton to the mesh.
In the attached, I have an original low poly lumberjack intended for a toon render. Everything is native Carrara, and it did not take long at all. If you add up all of the "File: export" and "File: import" commands if I had used Hex to model, uvmapper to uvmap, Daz Studio to rig, and throw in some time to assign polygons to bodyparts and edit textures, there is a lot of room for Carrara to be inefficient, yet still be a time saver compared to using other programs. But again, the key was that I knew I was just doing a low poly toon and had no intention of distributing the model, especially for use in other programs.
So to what others have already said, I would add that if you know that you are only going to render something in Carrara, and you don't plan to distribute it for use in other programs, then rigging in Carrara can make a lot of sense under some circumstances. And in some cases (see Wendy's posts about where Carrara's rigging translates), rigging in Carrara can make sense for some external animations.
Interesting, does this mean I can effectively weightmap certain morphs into the character? For example if I wanted to have the bicep bulge out when M4 crooks his arm so the forearm is at 90 degrees to the shoulder, is this something that I could rig in so that it happens automatically when I move the forearm back to that position? I was thinking I would need to set up an ERC using Fenric's plugin to make something like that happen, but very cool if there is a way to 'rig' it into place.
Interesting, does this mean I can effectively weightmap certain morphs into the character? For example if I wanted to have the bicep bulge out when M4 crooks his arm so the forearm is at 90 degrees to the shoulder, is this something that I could rig in so that it happens automatically when I move the forearm back to that position? I was thinking I would need to set up an ERC using Fenric's plugin to make something like that happen, but very cool if there is a way to 'rig' it into place.If I'm not mistaken, I believe that is a job for Fenric's ERC (Enhanced Remote Control) for Carrara plugin. If you want to do this for DS Triax-rigged figures, DAZ 3D has just uploaded some great tutorials on those topics in their YouTube channel... quite interesting - and a fine testament to all of the hard work they've been putting into there own brain-child: DAZ Studio.
Yo Diomede,
Love that Lumberjack character! Like Roygee was saying, I think it would be cool to have a Carrara artist open a DAZ 3D store filled with Carrara-specific figures. I bet they would sell pretty well, too, especially if there was a collection of different characters - enough to make a full cast of characters for whole projects, etc., But one could start somewhere with the likes of one or two, and add from there, as they get completed. Huge advantages can come to the user of such files, as Carrara native stuff works very well within Carara and offers multitudes of Carrara-specific options, changes and so forth. I've seen a bit of your work, and I say that you should Go For It, if you have the inclination! I'd introduce you to the Boss, myself, if you'r interested
No matter what though, I sure do enjoy seeing your wonderful works in Carrara! Bravo! ;)
I appreciate the compliment, Dart. I am still learning but feel like I am making steady progress. For the moment, I think people who want to do toon and comic style renders would be better served by the toon presets for existing figures. They come with expression morphs, speech morphs, the autofit function, pose collections, and many other convenient add-ons.
My custom Carrara-rigged Hollywood cast for toon/comic and other non-photorealistic style renders is slowly growing. I have a leading male and female, a big fat guy (anyone from Oliver Hardy to Sidney Greenstreet), and even a dog. I am currently working on the thin/lean male character actor (anyone from Stan Laurel to Snidely Whiplash) and will then turn to the plain-Jane female friend. A recent Cripeman tutorial on the NPR render engine has me very excited about returning to my own projects, which I never seem to get finished. Someday, I will take over the 3D world! Oh, did I say that out loud?
If I recommend that people use the existing toon presets or create a morph for an existing character, why am I slowly assembling my own custom cast? No good reason. Sort of like climbing a mountain. But there are some circumstances in which natively rigged figures could be useful, so I wouldn't dismiss the idea or discourage anyone.
As for being introduced to the boss, I'd love to meet Rosie the next time I am traveling through the upper Midwest. ;-)
There is a really good reason: A great sense of accomplishment, seeing the results of good modeling techniques to create something amazing! Polygon modeling (and Spline Modeling, for that matter) is or can be an incredibly fun endeavor - the more we like sculpting, the more we might capture a true thrill out of everything that's possible.
As for morphs for expressions and such - if you don't want to include an exhaustive amount of those, instead offer a quick tutorial on how to do it along with the model, and offer it as an educational experience. Personally, I think I would groove on such a product, even though I feel entirely confident in my skills for such things already. I just like exploring all options, and it can be fun to see how others do things - even if it turns out to be the same methods which I already use. Another option would be to perhaps partner with another artists whom might be interested in creating a plethora of expression morphs for your character products. At DAZ 3D, we can do that, and then upon submitting the product for publishing approval, the person submitting it includes the names of each registered DAZ 3D member involved, and what percentage each artist is entitled to. Many PAs do such things.
Rosie is my Best Friend, my Lovely Wife, My Reason for Living... Forever!
(Edit: After being blissfully married to her for seventeen wonderful years, I still take her on Honeymoons as often as I can. We leave tomorrow for yet another five-day Honeymoon to return March First! She is my favorite thing to do!)
Kevin is the Boss! ;)
I don't know about the boss... Bossy, maybe. ;-)
Have fun on your honeymoon, Dart. If you two love birds are staying in Wisconsin, I hope you and Rosie are going somewhere where you can share some body heat. It is supposed to stay frickin' cold! Dang, my pudgy fingers hit the "r" and "i" keys again!
Weirdly I find this to be exactly true, even for me, and I'm kind of talentless when it comes to modelling :) Even just working on trying to put together an invisible softbody undersuit to run the cloth sims on, sometimes I sort of sit back and look at my screen... *me* of all people, actually in the vertex modelling room for hours playing around and enjoying it. It does seem to get easier and more intuitive the more I play :)
There really is something about the idea of 'creating' something from scratch, even if it may never by my forte, that is strangely satisfying.