CELEBRATING FIVE YEARS OF CARRARA CHALLENGES! How to maintain interest? Please have your say!
Headwax
Posts: 9,987
How to achieve community interest in Carrara Challenges? Please have your say.
Hi,
We've been doing the Carrara challenges for quite a while now.
We started in May 2013, so it's been just over two (it's now may 2018 - so make that FIVE) years, quite a record. There's been some beautiful work produced, some vibrant exchanges of ideas, and I think people have learnt quite a lot from each other's different approaches.
In addition to Daz, there has been some amazing sponsors involved, and I'd like to thank them all for their kindness and generosity.
I hope they received exposure that would balance out that generosity.
Apart from developing a community sense of spirit, one of the ideas for the challenges was
# to show what wonderful work Carrara was capable of and hence
# to try and attract more users to Carrara.
# to show Daz and Pa's that it was worth their while to spend time and money on developing products for Carrara.
# to create a self fulfilling cycle (more PA's supporting Carrara, Daz supporting Carrara ) and that would, in turn, attract more users.
(By 'users' I mean people who use Carrara to make images/animations - not just people who own it.)
Unfortunately the interest in these challenges appears to be waning. The last challenge, though Stezza worked his bottom off (thanks Stezza and all the other challenge hosts) and we had an incredible sponsor in Stonemason (and Daz of course) the community could only manage to scrape together 8 works - as opposed to the 18 for our first challenge.
So my questions to you.
1) How can we get more interest in the challenges?
2) What stops you participating in the present challenges? E.g.
- Lack of Time?
- You think challenges are a waste of time? ie that they don't help you improve your skills?
- Scared of winning because you might have to host the next challenge?
- You feel your work isn't good enough?
3) Do you think sponsorship encourages people to take part? Or is it a waste of a Pa's and Daz's resources?
4) What if anything would you like to see in further challenges, assuming they continue?
5) Are you interested in being involved in further challenges?
6) Anything else you'd like to add ?
You might be interested to note that the last (ended may 2015) Bryce challenge attracted 50 entries.
thanks for your time ;)
Personally I'd like to see the community challenges continue.
By contributing your ideas you will be helping future challenge hosts to make better challenges.
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Comments
I've been too busy lately to enter. I was able to enter the first few, but time has not been my friend lately. One thought is to double the length of the contest. It would give those of us with time constraints a chance to get something pulled together and entered.
I think the sponsorship is great if there are enough entries. Maybe DAZ could change the reward based off the number of entries.
I wish I had more time right now to do some Carrara scenes.
There are two types of challenges. First is to get people to use tools that they may not have tried, or don't use much. Second is a concept (like space scenes). I like both types as long as there is Carrara generated content.
I do plan on entering again.
Thanks,
ncamp
Thanks ncamp. That's a good point about the two types of challenges. Thanks for pointing that out.
I was mystified by how few entered the latest challenge, especially as Stezza really went above and beyond to promote it, both here and in the Commons (he put together several excellent renders too, proving how quickly an entry can be put together). On top of that the prizes offered really were extraordinary this time - Stonemason products are not inexpensive and very high quality, it was a real coup getting him as a sponsor!
I've never thought I have the skill level to actually win one of these things, but if I'm being honest I am a little afraid of the possibility, hosting a challenge is a big deal, and would take some time commitment that I'm not sure I could spare. I was lucky this time around in that I had an idea for an entry early and was able to put it together relatively quickly, which was a good thing because real life intruded on most of the last month and I had no real time to devote to improving my entry.
Perhaps we should have a challenge where the rules are relaxed about having to significantly alter at least 2 scene elements within Carrara; that might be a little scary for new Carrara users who aren't familiar with how easy the modeling room is to use, or how intuitive the texture room is. But off the top of my head that's all I can think of. We could make a longer time period for the challenge, but I do think it's reasonably long enough as it is. I can never seem to enter the 'for the glory' or animations challenges that have been lately on the forums because I never think of an idea in time, or if I do I don't have enough time to put it together (though I can see by the many entries that even short weekly challenges like these can get very cool entries from other Carrarists so...)
I think the issue is simply getting Carrara users to visit the forum.
And more people using Carrara!!!
I do not enter so can shed light on why in my case, it is simply because I do not render images I do animations, I never enter the other DAZ contests for the same reason.
On rare occassions when an animation contest is posted on DAZ I have entered.
But of course that gives me the additional freedom of just using DAZ content and several softwares inc Carrara.
Jonstark wroteth
:
That's a good point about the scene elements being scary for new users - hadn't thought of that. On the time period, I think making it too long can reduce interest as well as create it? Double edged sword? I don't know !
wendylovescats wrote :
Thanks Wendy, Yes that's a good point on Carrara users not visiting. I know people have left because of (insert reason here) . I was hoping to lure them back with the new sense of community and positiveness that the challenges might create ;). The first challenge dragged a few out in the open (I sent a few pms) ... but they slipped away again. :(
I know what you mean about animations. Stills aren't the same if you are more interested in the moving object.
I was able to place in a recent challenge using an animation as my entry (though it was kind of a static scene really). I'm still not sure if that might have been cheating, but there wasn't anything in the rules against it, so...
Yes I forgot about that. It was a very good render either way I thought. The character had a lot of presence . The movement added to the feeling.
For me it's been time. I've focussed all my energy into my Hemlock Folly project (and it's been a real time-suck, every little detail seems to take forever - I dunno how people like Stonemason manage to be so prolific. Years of experience I guess).
I'm not a prolific renderer - I find it incredibly frustrating trying to get the lighting right in particular, never mind posing characters and getting their costumes to sit right. And even doing small test renders, there are still faults you only spot when you render big (and in my case that's often a 4-5 hour render, time wasted that could have been spent making models to enter the competition . . . ;) )
For the general scheme of things, I think Wendy has it nailed - we simply need more Carrara users, both in the forum and in general.
For me, I've stopped participating for two reasons:
- Lack of time
- Lack of competency
I could have managed with the first point, it's more difficult with the second. In the last challenges I was in, I submitted renders I put everything I had in. Couldn't do better. And I got only three or four votes each times. It was obvious to me I couldn't keep up to the level those challenges where getting at and I decided to give up.
I agree with Wendy we need more people in the forum.
The 'getting help' part is just perfect, I don't think there is much improvement to get from that direction.
The community is quite open. The only thing I could think of as a deterrent might be the "doomed" syndrome. We should avoid to complain to much about Carrara future, Daz implication in it, that kind of things. Usually, people begin to lurk in a forum before committing their first post and, during that phase, they might decide it's not worth it.
Since you asked.
I don't want the burden of organizing and hosting the following challenge if I should win one.
I think the rules and WIP requirements have become a bit too much, and saps some of the fun out of it.
I keep waiting for a theme that interests me. Lately they seem to be too esoteric or specific.
On the other hand, I've been enjoying the "Tis for the Glory" challenges. Mark has chosen to moderate all of them, and the winner only needs to choose a theme for the next one.
When I "won" a few months back, I was rather pleased to come second, cos it didn't have the penalty of organising the next one. But then I also think it's unfair to force the same person to keep doing it over and over - it would sap all the fun out of it very quickly, i think.
I have to agree with a lot of the comments in here.. some I don't..
I remember seeing a list a while back about the challenges, who participated, how may times and other stuff..
I was one with the longest streak of entries, I think I missed the very first one, can't remember why then I missed one a couple of challenges ago.
The reason I didn't submit for that one was the amount of rules that had to be adhered to just pivved me off so I didn't bother.
I enjoy entering my works but I don't enter in the hope of winning anything or getting votes, I do it because I enjoy it but when to many restrictions by way of rules impedes my creative thought I get discouraged.
I never thought I'd get enough votes to win a challenge but as the entries get lower the chances I guess increase and it is time consuming in hosting and I don't really want to host another one lol..
SO..
I. Have someone from Daz host the challenges with the topic voted by the Carrara members ( from several choices suggested by members )
II. We can do all the promoting in the commons as Daz wouldn't have the time
III. Get all DAZ employees & PAs to choose the winners from the challenge entries
IV. Have members vote for their fav entry
V Have less rules and more emphasis on creativity
VI Hold the challenges quarterly so as to help keep an interest in looking forward to it
VII Get Daz to promote Carrara & the contests more via the store etc...
VIII Scrap the prizes all together so as not to make members not want to participate
Just my thoughts... enjoy your creativity ;-)
and I agree with de3an about enjoying the “Tis for the Glory” challenges.. simple but effective
With the Bryce challenge I have approached it from a different view point. I went pretty much by the rules that were used for the old Bryce Challenges that were held over at Rendo, although I did add prizes, small ones until DAZ 3D agreed to add some sponsorship as well.
I kept the basic rules simple, very simple.
I offered the chance for the winner, who picks the next theme, to add their own rules if they wanted for that specific challenge.
The basic rules have no specifics.
I run each challenge for around 6 weeks, with a two week gap in between for judging and setting up the next one.
I Collect the images up and set up a judging thread which is anonymous, ie no name of artist on them, just name of image and a number. This is alphabetical, so the images are juggled around from how they appear in the WIP thread.
I have a panel of judges, rather than open voting. The only rule I go by on setting up the judging panel is that they should almost all have some familiarity with Bryce and how it looks and works. However if we ever did change to an open vote I would still keep the anonymous voting list.
And of course I do run them myself, so other people don't have that problem, all the winner has to do is come up with a theme. OK I am retired, so (on paper) I have more time than some to do this.
I get on average 40-50 entries each time (up to 3 entries per participant.). We have a special prize for the best New Brycer.
Totte, who runs the RRRR contest in the Commons runs a completely different type of contest, but he uses Survey Monkey to set up the judging thread for a more open vote. This still makes it easier to have genuine vote without any favourites (ie voting for your friend, just cos he is your friend).
I entered the challenges to develop my Carrara skills.
Still have a long way to go with modelling, lights, and advanced shader work.
As regards the challenges, the amount of awesome modelling skills on display makes me feel as though it's not worth entering, but I remind myself that while I am not a beginner anymore I still have heaps to learn, and the challenges are good for that.
So even if I don't get any votes at least I have tried taking my skills forward.
My own personal reward is getting some comments that show I am on the right track.
Competition wise I feel I can come up with concepts but it's needing those advanced skill levels required that hold me back.
Time frames seem about right to me, although there are times when real world stuff gets in the way of having some fun Carrara style.
If anything the 2 month time scale gives a good opportunity for entering.
For one person to be looking after the competition I think they would burn out or tune out after a while.
Some of the hosts do great support but some seem to struggle a bit.
Maybe 1st and 2nd could jointly support the next challenge.
Also there could be 2 categories for the competition, 1st being making or modifying something in Carrara, 2nd category being a straight out render from Carrara with WIP being a screenie of the Carrara setup. That way you can get people interested in either process. First prize could be $75.00 for the 1st category, and $25.00 for the second category with only the 1 prize for second category. That way the competition emphasis remains on building Carrara skill levels up but also generates interest for those who just want to do a straight render. Winning hosts of both categories become dual hosts for the following challenge - spreads the load.
Maybe there should also be an incentive for newbies as well.
Thats my 2 cents worth !!!!!
Regards, Bunyip
The fear of having to host the next challenge, is one one of the things that keeps me from participating.
But I do still join in with frightening delight.
The other aspect is time. Real life claims a lot of my time. One month is a little short. Two or three month is better.
I use these challenges to gain inspiration to try out things in Carrara, that I would normally not do. That takes some experimenting, and trial and errors.
I personally don't care that much about the prizes. But bragging rights on the other hand .... :coolsmile:
I also think that there should be one major rule : Rendered in Carrara
If there are other rules and requirements, then the judging should go on who did the best and most innovative way to following these, and not who created the most "shiny" picture.
But then again, there is the learning aspect in these. When setting specific rules, as use the spline modeller or the plant editor or ... , it might give people an excuse to try out the different tools in Carrara, and not only use it as a Poser or Studio clone... :-)
I will continue to participate, with joy.
just to add to - not picking on you !
1 - its easy to host a challenge - did many
2 - for sure to many rules rules rules - you must do this and that and so on - what fun is that !
and on the tis for the glory - its not even here - how does that help to get more people ?
if you look at the Bryce challenge you spoke about - easy to do for all !
I love the WIP thread - I think it's by far the best part of the challenge, even when I don't enter. Seeing how people create stuff, and what works and what doesn't. Plus the way people pitch in and suggest new ways of doing stuff, it's like a mini tutorial in its own right. :)
And I also like the challenge of using bits of the program I haven't previously mastered.
Good questions, head wax... As a noobish Carrarist I pop in the contest threads sometimes to get inspiration.
I don't participate because
1. like Wendy, Carrara is to me an animation render tool. For beauty still shots I have DS (even before iRay) and ZBrush. Also I'm a Carrara animation student so nothing to show yet...
2. I agree canned products-centered contests can be a DS migrant attractor. I'm not a one-tool purist however, lots of DIYs and imports, so definitely not a very good content show case user...
3. My obsession is workflow slimming. I do watch "art contests" and enjoy hearing opinions, but really feel art and beauty is a subjective thing.
On attracting more participants from existing pool of users... my 2 cts
-The subjective/artistry: broader theme, or more current cultural context. Move on from DS cliche imageries.
-The objective/technical: challenges tied to a specific Carrara feature/ tool, even plugin, or time constraint.
-Animations!
On attracting NEW users to Carrara...
-Entire forum needs to overhaul image/vids showcasing mechanism. Imagine some game sites or ZBrushCentral ban embedding. Their business will collapse. But Daz3D has more staying power than most.
-Show off Carrara's specialties - especially "what DS still cannot do" and "what iClone/ Poser can do well Carrarists can do it even better and FASTER" ;)
Hope I made sense... Keep talking...
First - Stezza did an amazing job hosting this challenge. Anyone who has not yet visited the announcement thread in the Commons should visit it right now and check out the promotional images Stezza put together. Wow.
Second - Unless Daz has said they won't continue sponsoring the challenges, I don't think we should stop having them on our own just because the number of entries declines from time to time.
On to the specific questions.
Yes
Thank you to everyone who has helped put the challenges on. I was a Carrara newbie when I started participating in the challenges. The challenges have really helped me learn many of Carrara's tools, even to the point that I often feel confident answering other people's questions about how to do something in Carrara. Sometimes my answer is accompanied by a link to a challenge WIP thread.
i get stuck in the vertex modelling, being used to wings3d.
does it always need to be modeling requirement, what about something with one of the other carrara features? effects, physics ...
I have been trying to formulate some answers to this since this morning, It's now gone 5pm here so as you can see it's taken me a while! The main reason for this is because I don't want to start a fight or lower peoples' moods but I really do want to say a few things.
So without further ado, I give you... some more ado!
Less restriction, more aims towards an entertaining challenge, perhaps questions and answers from those willing to be factual rather than opinionated.
6) Anything else you’d like to add ?
Well, I guess I should apologise if anyone took my earlier comments to heart and and got angry or upset. That's not my intention, I just felt that I had to answer the questions honestly.
Since I primarily work in DS I guess that's a big reason why I want to use Carrara the same way, without worrying about having to model my own props in it. It's just a preference.
Much respect,
Barry
prob no help to you Barry but
Dartanbecks starry sky made into Octane emitters works pretty damned good
..............but you need OR4C
For those who don't want to run the challenge if they win, or don't have the time to do it, possibly giving the winner the option to exchange their placing (and winnings) with second (or third) place would encourage more participation.
Interesting - my first thought was "What are they doing for the Bryce Challenges that we aren't doing (or what are we doing that they aren't)? I think the reason may be because the rules a very simple, and there are very few technical restrictions/requirements. Below are the challenge rules for the one you mentioned:
All renders must be new renders.
You can enter up to 3 renders.
You must abide by the DAZ 3D forum TOS
Imported content is allowed, but the render must be obviously a Bryce render.
Post Work permitted, but please keep it to a minimum.
Rules may be changed for subsequent Challenges, depending on the theme and the person who has selected it.
The winner of the Challenge will get the chance to name the theme for the next contest.
This will then continue with subsequent winners choosing the theme for the next contest, which will enable a new contest to start with the minimum of delay between contests.
Whoever nominates the subject for the Challenge can modify the rules to suit that challenge.
Please don’t post your entry renders anywhere else until after the Challenge is judged, as judging is done in a blind judging thread, so the Judges don’t know who has done which image
It looks like the rules/requirements are much simpler and more flexible. Keeping in mind that the one of the reasons for our challenges is/was in part to showcase Carrara's capabilities, maybe dropping the requirements from 2 items to one item created/modified Carrara would help.
1) How can we get more interest in the challenges?
By keeping them going for starters. It's not just the number of entries that indicate interest, I still look in and sift through the WIPs even when I'm unable to enter and I'm sure others do too.
2) What stops you participating in the present challenges? E.g.
- Lack of Time?
I participate as much as I can but time could be an issue, especially when I'm in the middle of some assignment that's also CG, there'll be just no space in my head for anything else.
- You think challenges are a waste of time? ie that they don’t help you improve your skills?
Wrong. I find challenges helpful, was worried I didn't have enough knowledge / skill to contest but decided to do away with all shame and just jump in, it helps sharing your work for others to see and because it's a challenge, I might try harder than I would with a personal doodle.
- Scared of winning because you might have to host the next challenge?
Errr.....actually, there is that fear, but the fear that my works is really not good enough overrides that fear so fear cancelleth out fear....fear enough....
- You feel your work isn’t good enough?
As said above, I chose to lose all shame....Problem solved. Also helpful that everyone is so helpful and nice in not telling one outright that one's entry is dodgy! :lol:
3) Do you think sponsorship encourages people to take part? Or is it a waste of a Pa’s and Daz’s resources?
I think sponsorship is a nice and lovely thing, and it helps.
4) What if anything would you like to see in further challenges, assuming they continue?
We could experiment with allowing animation, Jon's legendary entry shows how well animation could be integrated into entries.
Maybe also some challenges that encourage tag teams / team ups. Stezza's work inspired me greatly in the challenge before this one, and I was so tickled when he accepted my request to do a render featuring my own character and his, of course it won't work all the time, but it might be fun to encourage team entries from time to time.
Maybe also let non sponsoring P.A.s and other users reward random entries they're keen on with gift cards.
Which brings to mind another idea for a different kind of contest or award as the case may be: 'Most helpful Carrara forum user award'. This may be slightly off point, but I remember some users being so keen to reward evilproducer with a C8.5 upgrade when a sale was on, I think someone donated to the cause eventually. It takes time to contribute to the forum and encourage other users, I've benefited a lot from this and I think it would be nice to reward helpful forum users.....then once that's started, there should be another one for most entertaining forum users too! :cheese:
5) Are you interested in being involved in further challenges?
Oh yes definitely, I'm likely to fade out occasionally though, due to work / time commitments.
6) Anything else you’d like to add?
Let the challenges continue, the number of entries does not necessarily signify a lack of interest, sometimes, most people could just get busy at about the same time, for example, I noticed the Carrara forum suffered a lull at about the same time that the current challenge was getting less love. Might be a sign that world wide it's getting harder to earn a dime or something.....:roll:
And thanks Headwax for starting this conversation, it's efforts like this that make this a great community.
"so fear cancelleth out fear….fear enough…."
Very Funny!
For me it is all about time, with any of these software challenges. When I say time, I mean time aside from the things I'm already doing.
One issue is that most everyone these days is working on some pet project. In my case I am working on vegetation projects and human character skins and I feel compelled to complete them first as they could be a potential income streams if they work out. But being that I'm never fully happy with anything, it takes me a long time to get anything good enough to submit to Daz, and as of yet I have yet to make my first submission.
Skill with Carrara is another beast. Efficiency is important, and if one doesn't know the roads they are bound to go around in circles a few times until they gain the lay of the land. Getting challenges completed in time is always hard for me even in the challenges I have participated in.
I have to learn how to grow Carrara hair onto a huge terrain object as grass, to see if it works out better than using grass models. This is the type of huge decision one needs to know the benefits and drawback of before anything else.
What to do to keep it going? I really don't know what more you can do but may of the ideas presented so far like relaxation of the rules and longer submission periods might improve things indeed.
This. I've been bounced back twice, so now I see it as a challenge in it's own right (& I'm still struggling to get what I'd consider a promo-quality render...). At 4+ hours a render (or more than 12 hours on the really high settings), every time I throw one away, that's basically a day down the drain. Those days add up very quickly and soon another month has gone by with very little to show for it!
I agree about the rules part in general, although it is needed to spell out a time frame and other stuff. It has been said all along that the host sets the rules. If I'm asked, I always strongly suggest a WIP thread. 99.9% of the time they are very friendly and easy going with lots of tips and tricks.
As to the two item rule, I may be the one to blame for that. The idea was to get people that are new to Carrara to explore something they maybe haven't done with Carrara. My first time hosting, I couldn't recall what was a Standard function and what was a Pro function, so I gave entrants a choice of what to use. They could use one or the other- or both. The choices I gave were a volumetric cloud or a spline model if I recall correctly. Other hosts have required using deformers, shaders, replicators, etc. It's not always modeling, and it doesn't have to be two items. Remember, it's the hosts' choice of rules.
To continue with my thoughts on the required items, part of the idea of these challenges was to help new users learn how to use Carrara. If someone comes to Carrara from another software such as Poser or Studio, which have nice features, but are rather limited in some areas, such as replicators, modeling, etc. then these challenges are a great way to bring new, intermediate and advanced users together to share ideas and teach new techniques. I myself have been using Carrara since version 5, and before that, Raydream Studio. I shied away from the vertex modeler as I had a hard time wrapping my head around it. These challenges inspired me to really dig into it. I won't say I'm a good vertex modeler, but I can create what I need to for a scene. I think they are a good idea.
I do prefer the more open ended themes. My first challenge was Movie Night, specifically, what a movie night entailed, from the genres of the films, going out or staying in... The entries were very diverse and extremely creative in their interpretation.
Going back to the rules, I think they tend to grow because all the hosts borrow what they like from previous challenge hosts and add their own to them. I myself have done this. I tired to pare them down for the last challenge I hosted.
I will say I don't like the idea of having a selected group of judges. I like it fine being more open and democratic. Part of the reason, is if you get people to come in and vote, such as folks from other forums here at DAZ, then you've just exposed them to Carrara and what it can do. Sure, there is the possibility of favoritism, but if it has happened, I haven't recognized it as happening. I avoid favoritism when I vote. For example, I have personally been rooting for Stezza to win a challenge, but I haven't always voted for his images because there was maybe one image that spoke to me more than one of his.
The Bryce challenge is a great example of why I don't like pre-selected judges. I check the Bryce challenge out- when I remember. The reason I don't remember is there is no vested interest for me to actually follow up. I can't vote for my favorite image, and it may not even place, so why should I bother paging through fifty entries. Of course, with the Carrara challenge, my favorite may not place either, but at least I had a vote to support my favorite image.
Regarding acrimony on the forums, that can be an issue sometimes. It had been pretty nice here for quite awhile, but then It has flared up a bit more than it has in the last couple years. I'll take a little blame for that, but not all of it, and that person is back on my ignore list.
I was initially very intrigued and interested in the challenges and thought it would be fun and a great way to learn. In fact, I have learned many things from reading through the challenge threads.
After getting part way through the RULES, as my eyes started to roll up into my head, I quickly became disinterested. The rules section always seems to be an oxymoron to me as they invariably start with “have fun” and then the ensuing rules suck all the fun and joy out of for me.
As with many here, time is always a factor as well – but for me the time factor is secondary to the oppressive rules.
While the sponsorship (and prizes) probably encourages some others, it is a non-factor for me.
I do not feel that the prospect of winning is a realistic consideration for me as I am purely a hobbyist and my skills are extremely limited. However, if the world was to fall off its
Axis and I did win I would NOT want to be required to host a subsequent challenge.
I like the fact that the voting is done by the “community” and I would not be dismayed or deterred if I did not receive any votes. For me the important thing is the give and take, the sharing of ideas and techniques and constructive criticism.
I would be interested in participating in future challenges (as I feel it would be an enjoyable learning experience) if the rules were more akin to the ones delineated from the Bryce challenge.
wow thank you to all who responded, what a great bunch of ideas! it's taken a while to sort through them, amazing how intelligent and kind carrara users are :)