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I'd like to REFRESH a few recurring points:
Time - the lack of it. True for most, noob or vets or regulars. Which means
No winner must host rule
No long involved hyper-contextual themes/ rules
No inconsistent judging criterias which require long-winded explanation
And by "Simple" themes, I mean:
Obvious, Self-evident. The Show bit in Show & Tell. Style, or Form that are universal enough.
Rock Stars, Gothic Horror, Chinese martial art, The Matrix, 80's fashion, Farm yard, Shinjuku rush hour, Greek mythology, most people can relate INSTANTLY to these.
Simple does not mean over-generality. Too broad and "anything goes" a theme, like "Legends" or "Myths" or "Retro" or "Oriental" may attract more entries but often lead to difficult judging and upsets.
And by "Specific" technical challenges, I mean CLEAR, CONCISE technical rules
Instancing by shaders, Flocking of animals, Soft body physics, Fluid Sim, locomotive animations, are specific.
Also be clear & upfront about:
Plugin renderer is fine? Externally-made models allowed? Freebie/ canned models will minus points?
All contests have rules and structures. Technical rules cannot afford to be ambiguous especially in ART (read: already subjective) contests. Otherwise may as well call them workshops or mini expos? I always like those btw...
To me deciding what theme next is the fun bit, a reward for the winner - not to host, but to get to pick the art form of next challenge.
Tech challenge is tougher. Most people are at different skill levels, or pre-occupied with some technical department at any one time. To me this is the true decider of participant rate. Perhaps hold frequent (monthly?) SPECIFIC technical challenge poll to get a feel of prevailing wind.
So basically - the FASTER people can gain CLARITY of the criterias of Theme AND Rules, the more people know what it is about, the more positive vibe these contests will generate. And good vibe, there's never enough of those anywhere!
Keep the discussion going...
Thanks for all those extra ideas ;) and reiteration of the previous ones.
How about something along t he lines of:
Simple Theme: Sci-Fi (as eg)
Time: 6 weeks plus 2 week buffer
WIPs: encouraged but not necessary
Entries: up to three per person
Three equal cash prizes (if Daz is happy).
a) Prize : Most helpful Carrara member - as decided by open forum vote. 'Helpful' might be defined as explaining their WIPS or offering positive comments on other's wip's to help them make better work
b) Prize: Best Render by a newcomer (newcomer is someone using Carrara for less than 4 months - or who hasn't won a prize before - whether they are a newcomer is on honour system)
c)Prize: Best render - I know that 'best' is objective, but that's life ;)
Judges of Renders: three pa's who have previously sponsored us OR Carrara community
Other Sponsorships: variable. PA's to judge who they would like to award prizes to
This only leaves the question about hosting.
Well, I'm not sure who would host. I can see the fear of hosting is the main issue, and also the mistaken belief that you have to build a model, as well as complicated rules.
I'm definitely not on board with dropping the WIP thread. As the current host makes the rules, it is conceivable that they may not require a WIP, which I strongly counsel against. Dropping it (the WIP) defeats the purpose of having these challenges which is to not only demonstrate Carrara's abilities, but also to teach people how to use it and foster a positive community where we all learn from each other. I would go the other way and say that a WIP thread is mandatory.
I am also not in favor of overly rigid themes. If I don't have the latitude to interpret a theme artistically as I see fit, then that is a challenge I will by-pass. Ten or fifteen versions of essentially the same theme as dictated by the host or whomever would be very dull in my opinion.
I am also in favor of the current method of voting. I'm not sure why this seems to be a big issue as it hasn't been brought up often in this thread as a big issue, compared to hosting or the amount of rules, yet it keeps coming up in these "summations." I wonder if the voting method is really that much of an issue for most people?
The hosting thing is a bit of pickle... I'm sure the DAZ staff have more important things to do with their day than playing host to our challenge. The support they give is already very generous and I would hate to burden them further. Maybe the lowest vote-getter in the challenge should host? That "incentive" may drive participants to new levels of creativity and skill. ;-)
In all seriousness though, maybe people could volunteer to do this on a rotating basis? Perhaps if there was a simple set of rules that stayed the same for all the challenges, it would make the job easier?
I think Stezza's thought about holding it in The Commons is interesting. It would get more exposure there, but it could also get buried faster with all the useless complaint threads and other off-topic nonsense that goes on in there.
yes I like the Wips :)
I like the present voting too. I always vote for what I think is the best, regardless of how much money people throw at me :)
In the commons is a good idea but you are right about it being buried. I never go to the commons except when I am lost ;)
Just a reminder that previous challenge WIP threads and entry threads are available for perusal here.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/45254/
Maybe someone can spot a pattern.
RE: voting - it was brought up by more than one person prior to the first summation. Also, if trying to identify similarities and differences from the Bryce challenge, which gets more participation, this voting method is a difference. Also, the voting method can be intimidating. I don't mean that anyone fears that it is unfair, I mean that it is very public that an image does not get any votes. It can be like the little kid on the schoolyard who is always picked last when choosing sides.
The winner also chooses the next theme in the Bryce challenge, which gets more participation. That is not a difference.
My two cents has grown to 6 cents - discount appropriately.
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Edit: Here are links to some spreadsheets that Mark put together on participation a couple of challenges ago.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/index.php?&ACT=50&fid=66&aid=183372_Ss0VSySrtvtA1FAf6ugG&board_id=1
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/50985/P135/#763803
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If it's successful, then my apologies to Sockratease and if it isn't, then my apologies to Stezza. ;-)
AS regards posting to the Commons, and threads getting buried, Today is Sunday, and the forum is quieter than a weekday.
At present any thread which hasn't had a post to it in the last 4 hours is already on page 2 That's how quickly things move in the Commons.
You need to offer carrots to get people to visit the individual forums.
"Offer a carrot" says the woman with the stick...
Does that seem ... Amusing to anybody but me? Or is that an "old people only" metaphor?
Maybe it's just because my wife has a whip?
It's a shame there is no way to mirror the images in the commons, while keeping the main threads here. But even I understand the need to avoid too many duplicate threads in a forum, and allowing one would open the door for others.
See? I'm not completely unreasonable!!
Just ... Gimme The Millennium Cow, and nobody will get hurt. :coolmad:
I was thinking the same thing but was afraid to point it out first because, you know, the stick...
And here I thought she had a hold of a twitchy Mr. Hanky all this time. :red:
Hi Head wax and Carrara friends,
I feel ashamed that I missed all of this year's challenges. I came back to 3D and Carrara last year after a 2 year hiatus specifically because of the Carrara challenge. I've only participated in a couple challenges, but I'm so proud of being part of them. I promised myself that I would stay involved, but had to let something go because my job became difficult AF a few months ago, leaving little joy or creativity in me. This was absolutely no fault of the Carrara forum or challenge. I'm always fighting to carve out some time with Carrara and hope to find more time to participate in the Carrara forum as well.
I think the thing that truly sets the Carrara challenge apart from challenges/contests in other forums is the WIP thread, because of the camaraderie, education, and how it is available as a reference long after the challenge ends. Challenges on other forums produce some lovely images, but often the works are in a vacuum. Rarely do you see a glimpse of what went into these entries technically or artistically. All too often, its just "here is a picture." Often, you don't even get to find out why people voted the way they did, so there is less benefit to participants or observers.
Though the chance to win prizes for one's artwork is awesome and a super motivator (thank you sponsors!), I found participating in the challenge its own reward. There are many who make great contributions in the WIP thread who don't even make it to the final voting phase. Maybe we could dispense with voting on the final render part altogether. Instead, we could vote on the theme for the next challenge and a willing host. Rather than prizes for the end-product, the participants could win prizes by popular vote for other qualities demonstrated during the challenge period such as newness to Carrara, participation, creativity, mentorship, helpfulness, improvement, or overcoming technical/artistic difficulties. Sponsors could pop in to give some pointers and bestow random prizes for WIPs they like. At the end, we gather the work together like a gallery show where people can leave comments. Everyone is a winner!
Socratease, we've never interacted, but I've enjoyed your championing of cows over the years. Best wishes to you and Lissa.
sukyL
Hi sukyL, welcome back! I hope re settles down a little so you can pursue your passion. What's life without passion?
Very interesting ideas you put forward. Bit of lateral thinking there. Good to see.
The point about the wips is very astute. Yes it does make all the difference I think.
I particularly like : for other qualities demonstrated during the challenge period such as newness to Carrara, participation, creativity, mentorship, helpfulness, improvement, or overcoming technical/artistic difficulties.
Sorry can't select properly on my ipad !
Hope you can stick around :)
Hi SukyL. Great to get your perspective. Hope you get the chance to pop in the forums more often.
happy days sukyL :coolsmile:
maybe a Carrara plugin that can transform your render to look like a Bryce render, then we can flood the Bryce challenge and they won't know .. ;-)
where's Fenric?
:vampire:
Thanks, guys!
Hi all,
Since I'm hosting the next Challenge I'm trying to adopt some of the points from this thread - I'm not taking on everything because some things I'm not sure about and others I have no idea how to implement :).
Below are my proposed rules for the next Challenge and since it will probably be a few days before I open up the WIP thread (mostly because I am totally blanking on a theme) I thought I'd post them here and see what people think while there's still time to change them. A lot of it is the same but I broke it out into sections so hopefully things are clearer and less intimidating. I did try to simplify a bit, and removed the absolute requirement that something be made or modified in Carrara.
Rules
1. Each participant may submit up to 2 images into the Challenge.
2. Images must be new (previously unpublished).
3. Images must be primarily set up in Carrara.
4. Images must be rendered in Carrara or in an external renderer for which there is a Carrara plug-in (e.g. LuxRenderer, Octane)
5. At least one WIP (work in progress) image must be posted to the WIP thread (this can be as simple as the scene setup, a pre/post post-work comparison or just a final image with a brief description of the process you used or as complex as modeling rooms shots, shader setups or partial scene setups or test renders)
Content Use
Use of any and all content is allowed.
Used content should be credited in the Entry Thread.
Participants are encouraged to create or modify content, but it is not required.
Post-work
Post-work is allowed and welcome.
Entrants are encouraged, but not required, to explain their post-work in the WIP thread so that others can learn from it.
At least a brief description of post-work done should be included with the final entry in the Entry Thread.
Contest Timing
The WIP thread will remain open for six weeks, from ....TBD
The Entry thread will open five weeks after the start of the Challenge and remain open for entries to be posted for one week, from ...TBD
The Entry thread will be converted to a Voting thread six weeks from the opening of the WIP thread, running from ...TBD
Winners will be announced within a few days of the close of the Voting thread.
Voting
Voting will be open to anyone with a DAZ account and will take place in the Voting Thread at the end of the Challenge.
Each person may vote for up to three entries, plus an Honorable Mention.
Votes will be counted per entry and only one image per entrant will be eligible to win prizes.
Anonymous votes will be accepted with good cause (for example, if a forum moderator wishes to vote without giving an appearance of favortism).
Winners
The winner of the Challenge gets to pick the theme for the next Challenge and to make changes to the rules if they wish.
The winner of the Challenge will be the host for the next Challenge, but they may pass the hosting duties to any of the other winners if both agree, or to any other member of the forum if none of the winners is able or willing to host the next Challenge.
Hi Mark
That's a great render you won with! That said, I am sorry you had to host the challenge again :(
These are my thoughts, but as host you can, of course, do anything you like!
Seeing one dominant thought through the responses on this thread was simpler rules, maybe you could split them up into 'must read' and 'read if you want to '.
Alternatively just post the brief rules at the beginning and the voting rules when voting opens?
so bare bones example
Then post the rules on voting etc at a later stage.
My thoughts only and are only suggestions .
The other thing we could do is encourage New People, by making the challenge and prizes New People friendly.
So prizes could be for the 'best helper of new people' - as voted by Carrara users. (helping by WIP explanation or positive critique/feedback) This encourages more community spirit in the thread. And also helps new users get to grip with Carrara as they are guided by old hands.
The best New Person Render. (This reduces New Person anxiety by not having them go up against Old Persons ;) )
New Person definition is up to you ;)
Well five years of Carrara Challenges - congrats to everyone who has ever been involved!!
congrats to all
I do admire your works and find voting impossible too as all have merit
and my excuse still is I don't submit competition entries in anything
3D or the world at large be it guessing jelly beans in a jar, running a race or singing karaoke
its just not my thing, no compeditive urges
I only did a couple times out of guilt and obligation mainly
5 YEARS! Well done Carrara'ists
I only enter for the fun of it... I don't enter to be competitive but if I pick something up along the way that's a bonus..
The Challenge before this one I was lucky to be the Rooster... the latest challenge I'm a feather duster! as is for most of the challenges
but it's fun just to participate and pick up tips and hopefully give some out...
Voting is the hardest part though most times... I just go with what tickles me fancy
ah so my evil plan worked Wendy :)
I must say Carrara is blessed to have such a talent as yours on board
so true :)
I think the operating word is "Challenge" rather than contest etc.
The Challenge is always unto ourselves ;)
Of course I am just being selfish - I have learnt so much from thes challenges!!
.
Selina, you made a terrific render - we are honoured to have you on the forum
Congrats. Bryce has also made 5 years, we started in April 2013
Thankyou Pam - you've been very inspirational
+1 for Pam
tee hee made me think of my favorite wendy video, would prolly bust the tos
the one with the signs and dalek voice.
love the ravenskull one too.
Ha! I had no idea that this thread even existed. Thanks for bumping (and creating) this thread HW. It was a great read. And it was timely, as I thinking of starting a similar thread.
Here are my answers to the original questions.
1) How can we get more interest in the challenges?
Expanding the base is an obvious answer. However, other than Selina and Vyusur, I am the newest member who enters. That says a lot. So I think that reaching out to our current members may be a better approach. I'm going to make a list of regular visitors to this forum. I suspect that if only 10% of our current members participate in each Challenge, we would have strong turnouts each month. For some reason, Bryce has that level of fanaticism (for want of a better term) and we do not.
2) What stops you participating in the present challenges?
At this point, nothing. Initially, I didn't know the software well enough. And although I am still the least skilled and experienced person here with the Carrara software (that's a fact) I have learned how to work around problems. I do have one advantage - at this stage of my life I have more time than most. If a render takes 40 hours to construct, I just dive in and do it.
3) Do you think sponsorship encourages people to take part? Or is it a waste of a Pa's and Daz's resources?
For some it is more important than others, but for sure, it's simply part of the deal. PA sponsorship has changed. We now have regular Carrara PA sponsors, and we no longer ask them for an arm and a leg. I see it as a win-win, and as a celebration of all things Carrara.
4) What if anything would you like to see in further challenges, assuming they continue?
More participants. That is different from "more renders." If we have a solid number of participants - i.e 15 per Challenge - the number of renders will take care of itself. I've got some ideas about this, but they are in the early stages. Everything else is fine for me.
5) Are you interested in being involved in further challenges?
Of course. But I think that the question should be, "Why do you participate in the Challenges?" And my answer is, 1) to have fun learning Carrara, 2) to strengthen the community spirit, and 3) to let the world know that Carrara is alive and kicking, and to show what a wonderful software package that it is, UNEQUALLED for the price. For me, the last point is huge. Many folks here complain about Daz's lack of support. Some of that is justified, but I am big on self-determination. In a small but meaningful way, participating in the Challenge is a way of elevating Carrara in the eyes of the world. I'm not here to guilt-trip other members into entering. If you don't see it that way, then fine. But I see it as an essential contribution that I can make towards elevating the status of Carrara. One small step for a man...
6) Anything else you'd like to add ?
I read a post in this thread (from the past) where it was stated that comments in the Carrara forum could sometimes be cruel. What? I must have missed that. This is the most helpful place online I have ever visited.
People in Challenges are always incredibly generous with their advice, starting with Andrew Finney. Thanks Andrew, for starting this Challenge, and for your continuing support of Carrara. You have changed my life in positive ways that you will never know.