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Comments
Perhaps @greg_82000392 is using the addon tool to create previews for the exr file, rather than the addon tool to create thumb, tip and preview for assets like render settings presets. The asset tool works well to create all three (thumb, tip, preview) with the appropriate extensions and configurable sizes for tip and preview.
Oh, OK thanks Barb, I had not seen it this way ! ... And in this case, for the addon for exr files, it could make much more sense. I could even think about adding this feature in an update ;)
I don't see any reason to have thumb or tip files for exr files. exr files don't show up in Daz Studio. I simply meant that maybe he should be using the asset tool, if he was not aware of its ability to create the thumb and tip.
Gosh, I must be tired, now I think I understand you...
I apologized twice in my original post if I had missed something.. Now I must apologize for the third time! These products have the (understandably) busiest dialogs I can think of for DAZ scripts and I completely overlooked the thumbs and tips option in the DUF addon, Now that I am aware of them, the tools are perfect!
You went to a lot of trrouble to reply, thanks!
Great!
She's one of the best PAs and goes out of her way to help users.
The update is available in DIM now.
@greg_82000392 no problem, I was tired yesterday and I did not understood what you meant first... Have fun now!
@barbult : thanks for letting me know and for your nice comment.! So the "Creator" is now version 1.1, and the two other products are still version 1.0, waiting to be tested (but in the doc of the creator you'll be able to see what is in the update for the two others too)..
The other 2 just showed as an update in DIM for me?
Right they've just been successfully tested by Daz. I was busy scripting and I just saw it as I needed a break (I never watch my notifications when I'm working edit : except when I'm working on an update -, too counter-productive).
So now all the 3 products of the bundle should be accessible in their 1.1 version.
I made an HDRI from Desert Depression. I made a scene with a horse, a man, a cloud and a couple cactuses and rendered with the HDRI for lighting and background. I added some horseshoe track decals to the ground.
V3Digitimes, I've just been reading though some of your activity on your forum. Great customer service!
Thanks!
@Barbult : great image, I love it! And even the horse shoes decals?! You're a pro what else can I say ?! Thanks (again and again) for sharing your renders here!
@cshaw999 : You're welcome. Two reasons for that, first, I'm super respectful of people in general, second I want my projects to really change something in a good way for the users. That's why it's really important for me that anybody having issues or questions with my products can find answers - when such answers exist of course... Thanks a lot for your nice comment which warms my heart!
Why am I getting such terrible results? I've attached an example render using the exr file as the environment map. Everything seems to be working nicely but the exr image is grainy, pixelated and severely lacking detail. Clearly, there's something that I'm not doing or something that I should be doing.
Wait a minute... Am I using the thumbnail as the environment map? I've just read through some of the posts on this thread. I've gone to the runtimes MyHDR folder and have found the exr file there and then applied it to the render settings environment map and then done a render. But it's the thumbnail that I'm using as the environment map? This is a 90 something meg file, not usually the size one would expect for a thumbnail. Where's the actual image stored? And yes I've downloaded and installed the EXR Creator update using Install Manager.
@crashworship
My first impression, but I may be wrong, is that your render resolution might be too small and then, onced "enlarged" by Daz Studio to fit to your camera view and render size, the exr is a bit "blurry". First, make sure that your hdr render is big enough for the size of the "final" image you want to render (when it is loaded as an exr). Indeed, when you load your exr, your camera sees only a "small" part of it, so you have to make sure your exr size is big enough. Increase the resolution to see if it is better (for instance to 10000x5000 or 16000x8000 like Barbult does). A similar pixelated issue was already discussed in this thread, at the top of this page https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/625406/v3d-hdr-master-bundle-commercial/p6 . In brief try to increase the resolution by increasing the size (the pixels you can enter in the second tab use at least 10000 x 5000 minimum instead of 4000x2000 - edit you can normally raise to 16000 x 8000 without too much trouble).
Several other factors can impact your render quality, such as the light used, the shaders used (especially if you are using an old - non Iray - 3D environment).
Even if it is probably the size of the render which is an issue, and in case this is something else, in order to have more samples in your render, you can also increase the "Min Samples" in your Render Settings Tab, Progressive Rendering Group. This min samples can be raised to 100 (limit), but if you click on the little "gear" on the top right of the dial, you can remove the limits to increase them.
But what I would try first is to increase the size of the exr. Then when the render is done, of course you can place the exr manually as your environment map (choose the big exr file, I don't know what you mean by thumbnail), or you can use a preset that you create with the third tab (no need to re-render, the script remembers what you rendered, just look in the list). This preset can be launched from the content folder you saved it in (if it's a content folder), or it can be drag and dropped in your viewport (I think the doc explains how to make a folder become a new content folder). Edit : if you prefer to load it manually, in the third tab, you can select your file in the list, and click on the "open folder containing selected file". At least you'll be sure to be in the right folder. Then you must choose the exr file. But as I said, first increase the render resolution in the second tab, 4k for a 1920x1080 render settings is clearly not enough (it depends on how "large" the area you will render is too -its focal length/frame width).
@crashworship Let me show in pictures what V3Digitimes said above. She is absolutely correct that the blurry pixelization is caused by the HDR dimensions (4000 by 2000 in your case) being too small for the zoomed in camera view you are using in your final 1920 by 1080 render. There are three options that I can think of. You can try one, two or all three.
1) create a much larger HDR, if your computer can handle it
2) don't zoom in so far with your camera (i.e. use a smaller camera focal length)
3) render a smaller final image so the available pixels don't have to be stretched so much.
I am using the images you posted in this example. Thanks for showing your examples! The red outline shows the section of the whole HDR that your camera sees. That is only 593 pixels wide by 334 pixels tall.
This is how 593 by 334 pixels would fit into 1920 by 1080.
So Daz Studio has to stretch those pixels to fit 1920 by 1080. This is a PhotoShop approximation of how that would look. I simply stretched the 593 by 334 pixels to fit 1920 by 1080. You can see that it looks similar to the render results you are getting from the HDR as background.
Interesting. I've tried doubling and tripling the resolution. Didn't seem to make a difference. So out of curiosity, I opened some other HDRI environment images from my library which render without the fuzzy, no detail pixelization and they are 4000 by 2000 at 72 dpi. They render very sharp, render fine.
@Barbult Thanks for confirming my first impression, this is an excellent demonstration and considering the quality of all the renders I made and I saw so far, I wonder why this would not be linked to resolution. It's mathematical but I did not felt like making the maths then (plus people don't like math), and you made it by images, which is much more clear.
@crashworship
1. Are you sure that you loaded the exr of the right resolution? Because between a 4k and a 12k enviromnent map, you have a huge difference you normally clearly see.
2. If yes, have you tried to increase the render min samples for the big resolution image (by increasing the min samples and the convervence ratio to 100%)? So far all these "pixelated" issues were solved by a simple resolution increase, - eventually a render with more samples - and I still don't see why it would not work for you whereas it worked each time as far as I know so far.
3. Are you sure that you set these render sizes in the script interface (and NOT in Daz Studio, since the script overrides Daz Studio sizes)? This could explain why you didn't see differences (it would be each time a 4k).
Furthermore, the commercial 4k maps vary a lot. Some can remain sharp but it's because they are made (from where the photo is taken and what the photo is watching, for instance so that the details are in the foreground to use a higher number of pixels on the hdr, and there is no “individual” patch of grass or small detail placed at mid distance), so that the details and big shapes give this impression. For instance 4k Cake and Bob images generally remain pretty neat but many (many!!) others 4 k I loaded look pixelated even without changing the camera focal length or the frame - and some are limit at 8k. So the “sharp” hdr you saw are probably made by pros who learned the tips and tricks of hdr creation and assembly via photography in general, and who optimized their shots.
Thank you for your prompt response, btw. So when I open your EXR Creator script, I can't access any Studio buttons, menus, settings such as those availabe in the render tab. The script disables my ability to interact with Studio at all. So I'm only able to select those items in the script window. The very first thought I had when I first tried to use the EXR Creator was that my 4000x2000 resolution size was too small. I tried a 16k setting and the EXR file never completed. Like maybe 8 hours later, it still hadn't finished so obviously that won't work. I tried an 8000x4000 version which took a long time but I still had a great deal of fuzziness and pixelization and the sample render took a very long time but no improvement. I'm at a loss. I keep wondering since I use an iMac with an AMD (very high end) graphics card that might be the issue? IDK.
Ok, I understand. I thought a lot of your issue, and made some tests to be sure. Now here I am :
As I am having a look at the 4k jpg you joined to your first post, it’s clearly visible that you don’t have any exr render “quality issue” : if you have a look, in an image viewer software, at this image “full size” and without zooming on it, then it is not pixelated at all. Indeed when you start zooming on it, it becomes pixelated (as in your render). So the first conclusion is that Daz Studio manages to have good quality renders even with your AMD card, and the second conclusion is that the issue comes from the fact that the “zoom” or enlargement of the Environment Dome Daz Studio makes because of your camera settings and of your final render (once the exr is loaded) resolution is too big for your current exr resolution.
Iray is made basically for NVidia cards. With an AMD card you (most probably) will not be able to render with your GPU, forcing Daz Studio to render with your CPU only (this can be checked in the log file). It means that the renders will take let’s say 10 to 20 times longer than when render with your GPU. This is why it took so long to “not finish” your 16k render. Yet, normally, and if you cancelled with the cancel button, and if you did not overwrite it, this 16 k exr should be saved and available via the interface third pane (so that you can find and load it the way you prefer, or you can find it by your own means). If I were you I would give a try at this render. One more thing about “not finished” is that the way things are done, the progress bar of the render tends to jump from 0 to 100% suddenly, meaning that even if your progress bar showed “0” you might have rendered enough samples to use this 16k render (I hope you have not deleted it).
There are other solutions which can help you using smaller render size, such as 8 k exr for instance.
- First you can render “much closer” to your “target area”, which is the river and the path behind the river. WHY? Because your area of interest will then use a larger “width” in pixel on your exr (for instance, to give an idea of the effect, a tree located at 100 m will be a few pixels on the render, and a tree located at 10 cm will use many pixels of the render i.e. a bigger initial resolution). HOW? For this, you have several solutions, first you can manually move an existing Env Camera to just near the river and the area you want to render (not easy depending on how you will proceed), or, and this is my recommendation, you can create a “normal” camera, place it just near the river as close as possible to your area of interest, then, as this normal camera is active in the viewport, hold down the shift key (or the shift+alt keys) and use the script to create a new V3D Env Camera. The closer you are to your area of interest, the less pixel you will need for a same “final resolution” of this area.
- Second you “zoom” a lot with your final camera (using the focal length or maybe you use the camera frame) : lower the focal length and increase the frame width.
- Third you can lower the final render size (initially 1980px), once the exr is loaded (do this only if after making a 8 k render, closer to your area of interest, plus changing the final render camera settings - for final render once the exr is loaded, it’s still not ok).
In summary :
The problems :
- the issue clearly comes from the fact the exr is too small.
- Your AMD card is far from being the best card for Iray and you probably render CPU instead of GPU (making renders muuuuuuuch longer). It will be a limitation you’ll have to take into consideration.
The solutions :
- Test your 16k render you cancelled if it is still here, it might work even with the cancel.
- Use NVidia video cards to be able to render faster with GPU, preferentially on a PC (I’m kidding, but this is the long term solution, when you change your computer).
- Increase as much as you can (want) the size of your exr, the smaller it is, the more constraints you have on the renders you will be able to make with this exr with a sufficient background resolution.
- Render the exr “closer” to your area of interest in your scene. As close as possible, it will “take” more pixels on your render (it will have a better definition).
- After loading the exr, lower the focal length and/or increase the frame width of your final render camera until the background is clean. You may not end with the exact view you wanted, but without the ability to render bigger exr, that’s sadly the best compromise. It can be done in parallel with reducing your final render size (it's a compromise between those tree)
Feel free to let me know if it helped :)
I tried a 10k render of the same scene. In Photoshop, I played around with the exr file, reduced it from 10,000 to 4000 and tried a Studio render using a default Studio camera. There was improvement but still fuzziness and pixelization and not good enough to use as a backdrop for an actual scene. I thought maybe the issue in that case was the environment prop which is an older 1st Bastion prop I've had in my library for a long time. The first attempt I made using the EXR Creator was with an UltraScenery XT environment but I was running into a lot of instancing issues with the foliage. This problem was not related to the EXR Creator. It's just the way the instancing foliage matches with a spherical camera. I'm attempt to create a 12k EXR using the Tropical Lagoon environment which has much higher quality textures and detail. Let's see if that works. It is a rather render heavy environment, so this may take awhile.
Alright, I've completed another test exr environment map. This time using Andrey Pestryakov's Tropical Lagoon which is a very high quality and detailed environment prop. This original EXR Creator render was 12k and from the images attached to this post, it's clear that the noisy pixelization is gone but the fuzzy, lack of detail remains and is no different than those first attempts at 4k with the other, various environment props I was using. The colors and saturation are fine but for some reason beyond my comprehension, there's very poor detail. I've successfully created HDRI maps in Studio using a much more cumbersome process with a spherical camera and, while time consuming, I get detailed, sharp maps which I can use as a background for renders. And, for the record, even though I use a Mac with an AMD card, all of my scenes render fine and I can overcome the Nvidia Iray incompatibility in Photoshop without much effort.
Regarding my use of a Mac, I'm an image professional. When it comes to 3D, I'm very much a dilettante and this is a hobby. It would make absolutely no sense for me to switch a Windows machine just to use for Studio. And, I detest Windows with a passion and for what I do professionally, the Mac OS and hardware are far superior.
I'm left with one conclusion; The EXR Creator may work very will with Windows machines. It doesn't, for some reason, work with my iMac with the AMD card. And, for the record, this is not an entry level iMac. At the time I purchased it, it was the top of the line iMac available.
To 3D Digitimes; I use a number of your products. I often rely on them and they are very useful, well designed and executed and help me greatly creating the realism that I aspire to. But for some reason, the EXR Creator will not work with my iMac no matter what I do. I wish it would. I purchased it because I wanted to simplify and streamline making HDRI background image maps. But, for whatever reason, it can't help me do that. I realize that the vast number of Studio users use Windows machines and you probably created your EXR plugin on a Windows machine. It may not make much economic sense for you to create a version which works well on Macs and their AMD cards. I get that and I'm used to it the Daz 3D marketplace. I appreciate your efforts and what you do, but this product won't work with my configuration.
I don't know, maybe there is something specific in your mac and your configuration. For the process used, it is probably roughly the same process as the "cumbersome" you already did (since there are not 100 ways to make it), but totally automated. If you set "50000" in the luminance correction factor, you probably have exactly the cumbersome process you mention (then either you post exposure in photoshop, or you set a 0.0001 environment intensity). I'm not sure that it comes from Mac, since it is basically only a Daz Studio render, and I had sent my product to a Mac friend of mine (a PA), I just asked him and he told me he had no issue. So I'm really sorry I don't know what in your hardware or software configuration makes this so problematic. I won't be able to help more as I don't have a Mac to try and replicate your issue. Have fun with your next renders!
I'm gonna try an experiment today. I'm going to render the scene using your EXR camera but not the EXR plugin. It's rendering now. Everything in the camera is default. I need to be away from my office today so that will give the spherical render at 12k plenty of time. For the first 20 minutes or so, the render is looking very sharp and detailed. Once I get back to my office and have a chance to open the render in Photoshop, I'll convert it to an 32 bit hdr file, play with its saturation and exposure, reduce it to 4k and see how that works in Studio using the exact method I've been using for the samples I've created so far. Let's see how that works.
Do you mean that you render a png, then go in photoshop to add a 32 bit depth to the image, and then after a size reduction, you load it as a background? I'm a bit astonished because even if it can work for background images, it *should* not work as a hdr lighting (except you do specific multi exposure steps in photoshop), I say this because normally 8 bits only converted to 32 bits by photoshop are not able to provide the lighting (light amount, quality and shadows) that a hdr does (most of the time you have almost no shadows and a super flat light, even if its 32 bits). But if maybe you don't need to use it for the lighting and you use another light in addition.
I was thinking for the hdr, did you follow my recommendation of increasing the min Samples in the render settings (if you try, try to increase it to 500 by removing the limit)? Because it might provide more detailed renders too... And you can cancel this render at any time when you're fed up, using the cancel button normally it will be saved and you will be able to access it (try to wait at least for 150 iterations minimum).
If you have photoshop, the best way to create hdr "lighting" (and not only background), if you don't want to use the exr creator is to use the png xEV creator (and then combine the png images as an hdr, which will have also good lighting capacities. You'll find more info in the doc and the forum about that).
Hi, I'm running on macOS, and what I've seen so far is that the render is baked way to short time when rendering on a machine without an nVidia GPU, i.e. the render target numbers for time is set for GPU, not CPU rendering. Just did a 4kx2k and it was "done" at about 50 iterations, but would have needed about 900 more iterations to rid it of the most of the grain.
I'm gonna do a second test soon when the one I'm running now is done.
OK, I did a second test rendering from my mac using BoostForDAZ Iray Server.
Booth as 8K x 4k
This is the exr rendered with CPU in macOS 12.6
This is the exr rendered with GPU on macOS 12.6
Both then rendered in Studio using CPU (as render a HDRI is pressy simple
Thanks a lot @Totte since I have no Mac to help, that's a super info. So the render time is too short (there is not enough samples launched). Do you think that increasing the Min Sample before launching the exr to something like 500 or 900 as you said would help, or does it, in your opinion, require something else?
Hi, I guess you set the end time params for the exr renderer from script, and 60-ish iterations are enough when you have the denosier, but that is not an option with CPU.
So, I think you could try to either
(a) discover if there are GPUs available and if not, set longer times
(b) Have a GPU available checkbox
Cheers,
/Totte
@crashworship after taking the time to render a larger HDR size, why would you reduce it to 4K and throw away all the extra detail? Why would you have to convert it to 32 bit? The exr output from the V3D HDR Creator is already 32 bit. Rendering a Beauty Canvas with the V3D Env Camera will also give you a 32 bit exr file. If you are just manually rendering a single spherical PNG, JPG, or TIFF with the V3D Env Camera and converting to 32 bit in Photoshop, that is not going to give good results. If you are rendering manually with the V3D Env Camera, you need to render a Beauty Canvas and use that. There are plenty of tutorials online about rendering canvases in Daz Studio, in case that is new to you.
In your Tropical Lagoon example, it looks like you are again zooming in way too far for the resolution of the HDR you created.
@Totte thanks again. Sadly I don't set the render time in the script, I let Daz Studio choose the render time (the only thing the script forces is the render size, and eventually the denoiser, but the render time is low because I have a super strong correction of environment intensity, and this is the way DS reacts to that). The solution to increase quality, to have more samples or longer renders are easy to set up and are described almost in the beginning of the doc and consists - just for more samples - in a first time in increasing Min Samples, and Rendering Converged Ratio, in a second time to use 50 000 for the luminance corrective factor (with the full post procedure explained in the doc), and a few other recommendations. The last solution - when nothing works - consists in using the png xev creator instead of the exr creator for a recombination in photoshop as hdr. I think in the version 1.2 I'll think about the GPU available checkbox, this is a super idea, eventually a control of the min samples, and a popup message if there is no GPU and not enough samples. This could do the trick. Thanks so much for the tips!!!