G3F all the same faces?
yagakisan
Posts: 65
Hi guys, it's just me or all new G3F characters look almost identical?
If it weren't for hair I would barely able to distinguish one from the other... I found more differences among old V4 characters, and personally I like characters with very different somatic.
This is a suggestion for publishers, I would like to be able to create my own characters and skins but for now I cannot :(
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I noticed the same thing, at least with the few I bought at first. The one, not a Daz Original, looks a lot like Victoria 7.
I see much more variation with the Daz originals, though I admit I haven't really looked at the others too much. I want to convert many of my V4 & Genesis models.
Do you mean the lady we see on too many promo pics (mostly for 'sexy' wear) - the one with the triangle face which doesn't fit the head; so wide that the eyes almost touch the ears and the forehead is reduced to a narrow stripe? ;-D The one with the lips like thick high-gloss leather? 8-O
If you mean this one: Fortunately this is not the only G3F figure; there are a lot more. Olympia, e.g., looks totally different, and many characters for the base models also do. I don't know why they always show this one, which is probably V7 in an exaggerated form.
I'd like to see more G3F of color. Had to go to Renderosity to find something lately. All DAZ3D G3F look alike.
You mean like Lynsey: http://www.daz3d.com/lynsey-for-genesis-3-female-s
or Samira: http://www.daz3d.com/fwsa-samira-hd-for-victoria-7
Could it be that to us Japanese, all Gaijin look alike?
Nope. They really look like siblings.
I find the same lack of diversity with G3M. We need ethnic faces packs like there were for past generations. G3 has great flexibility and the gen geograph is wonderful; but the characters being offered so far are too similar (except for Darrin & Dash, but they only have one set of features each and are very similar). I find myself going back to G2 for diversity. Of course, if we had a skin converter tool that could extend the line. I have so many G2 characters with M4 skins, but I also have a lot of custom head and body morphs to extend my options and create many unique characters.
I think it's coming around, Brooklyn and Cailin both struck me as having a different look. Vincenzina and Sapphire are definately a step in the right direction.
The problem is, said packs, according to a Published Artist that I know, don't sell as well as you would think they would, or she would have done more of them. Also, G3M hasn't been out as long as G3F has, so he hasn't had the time to draw the attention of interested PAs to enhance him.
These are morphs I made. Even though they all use the same skin and hair, I try to make differences that can be seen on the grey models. They also produce a lot of variation when mixed in small amounts with each other or other faces.
http://www.daz3d.com/metamorphosis-for-genesis-3-female-s
To me, Barbult has done what I had hoped customers would do in this beautiful image:
I opened this thread in January, now we are in November and the situation is not changed, rather is become ridiculous...
I understand that publishers need to sell what the market ask for, but practically you can create the same characters just morphing a bit the basic G3F...
I know is supposed to reproduce good looking (mostly caucasic) women but c'mon, take a day off, do a walk around and have a look at how many gorgeous women exist without the somatic of basic V7/G3F!
Fortunately when you feel that you're not getting what you need, then you use the morph packs to make what you need. I'll disagree with youf assessment, since there are a few different characters in the store now. Most times when people create these threads, they are just looking at DAZ originals, I would actually start looking at the PA items and also look at the store with more frequency as most times you will take time off and miss those unique characters and they get buried in the store. But you're going to have a hard time telling PAs to make things that don't cover their costs; so maybe you're at the point to start making things yourself. That's how I got started.
Just a suggestion.
It is well known artists have a certain style and that's reflected in their work. That is why so many characters seem to have the same look to people even those not paired as Girl 7 & Guy 7 are. To get away from that one will have to treat the models they make of characters not as art but as technically precise models of people. Then you will see the more of a natural looking variance in new DAZ 3D characters.
I used the Morph Packs and FaceGen Pro to completely hide that a character was G3M as Guy 7 looked too much like Girl 7, they could be brother or sister or distant relatives but you'd say they were both from the same region of the world (same region of the Old World, that effect is largely disappeared in the New World) for sure. I, for one, was glad Guy 7 looked like Girl 7 ethnically or as a sibling or relative.
I will buy these ethnicity morphs packs or use that functionality via FaceGen Pro 1.9. You can get around the problem easily the same way just spend a bit of money and time doing it.
Thanks for your suggestions, I'll give a look :)
200 Plus - Head and Face Morphs for Genesis 3 Female(s) by Dogz is another excellent product. In addition to the individual morphs, there are a bunch of face presets that offer a lot of variety. Here are a few image I created with this product. It does not contain any skins, only the morphs and presets, so I used other skins I had and modified those skins with Surface pane settings in some cases.
One of the main feature of the Genesis figures has always been the ability to mix character morphs to alter the look of your character.
There are multiple tools for changing the look of the skin too. Skin Blender being the newest and extremely easy to use too - http://www.daz3d.com/skin-blender
True! They actually look similar lol but I did find some that are different but most of them look the same.
I think of all the generations, G3F head looks almost the same, no matter what you do to it. I wish there was a clothes converter for G2, so we could put all the generations clothes on G2. I would buy it and go back to G2.
There are clones to fit G3 clothes to G2:
http://www.daz3d.com/genesis-3-male-for-genesis-2-male-s
http://www.daz3d.com/genesis-3-female-for-genesis-2-female-s
I agree completely for the majority of models. I am very tired of the "stock sexy lady" look that most of the G3F characters we get have. Of course I want that type of look in my library, but one or two entries are all I need before I want to start building other options.
There are some artists and packs which give good variety, some have already been mentioned in this thread. EmmaAndJordi are good examples of differentiated faces and I like the fact that they include extra fantasy textures + ear or teeth morphs usually too. Just adds a nice bit of variety to your library while giving you some realistic representation. Mihrelle's are high quality and Isabis also includes extra resources but sadly there aren't many to pick from.
For characters of varying ethnicity, I agree there are huge problems with the current library. Why do we have Eve, Karen, Arabella, Gia, Isabella, etc. and no Middle Eastern or (base, Daz Original) Black models for example? Kimo and Kalea are great examples of what I wish we would see more often. I'm not going to name names for what I think are poor representations of ethnicity, but there are a huge amount of morphs that look exactly like Victoria with darker/tinted skin, rather than having detailed, believable features.
For me the main problem is actually G3M, since I find there are about 2.5x as many resources for female characters as there are for male ones. This isn't a huge suprise to me, but that ratio would bother me less if there was a higher overall quantity. There are legitimately 0 Indian characters for G3M for example. As far as black options go, you have Dash for M7 (which sculpt-wise does not look very black, sorry, not trying to call-out), or Darrin. Raoul for Ivan 7 is actually quite good but you need 3-4 other paid resources in order to get the base character, which is less than ideal. That's it without going to G2M or G for a black character.
Maybe it's just that no one has expressed interest in buying varying, diverse characters but consider this message expressed interest!!!
I want suggest that to addition of Skin Blender, the SimTenero Randomizer will be perfect ;)
Looks like barbult has made of use of the Ultra Genesis Iray Box Light product !
Great products by the way, and amazing render also :)
Thank you for the compliment on the render. I lit it with 2 pointlights and an HDRI environment map. The HDRI was set to low values to just provide a little ambient light.
Part of the similarity of the commercially available faces is that most of them are seeking to be aesthetically attractive. Average faces look stylised (toonish) unless one is skilled in photorealistic renders. However, we can now use any skin or morph from Generation 4 to Genesis 2 on G3 (with Cayman Studios' & Dimension3D's products); so, there is much variety available.
Well, we have Mei Lin, Kalea, and now Monique 7; all of which do not look like variations of 'Victoria 7 with pale skin/a tan and an ethnic name slapped on it and hope people won't notice', nor do they have the doe eyes and bloated fish lips that have dominated a large chunk of Genesis 3 Female's existence.
In fairness, the main characters (i.e. Bethany, Eva, Gia, Olympia, Rune) themselves don't have this problem (and I don't count the Tweens, Aiko, Girl, Sunny, and Izabella, since they're intentionally stylized), mind you, but the PA made characters all seem to suffer from an extreme case of sameface after a while, to a point where unless it's in the item's name, I don't know who did who anymore.
The sad thing is, female-based characters who don't adhere to "The Look" don't exactly sell: I remember RawArt mentioning that while they like to make their female characters look "worn" (i.e. not like a Victoria's Secret model), that approach doesn't work with customers. (There's something about this hobby that brings out my inner feminist, lmao) I get that very specific "look" is probably where the money is -because the forums are not exactly a good gauge of what sells- and yay capitalism, but when do you cross the line between offering a new take on "The G3F Look" to the table and/or just 'Malibu Stacy with a New Hat'?
(Come to think of it, my experience with this whole hobby is practically the embodiment of that one Simpsons episode, haha)
At this point, if you want any meaningful non-idealized female faces, you're probably better off buying morph kits and tweaking to your satisfaction instead of continually buying PA characters that, to you, look the same. And if you want to inject some non-Anglo Saxon in your runtime, go support SickleYield's Faces of Africa/Asia sets for G3F&M. Considering how the Genesis 2 versions sold (according to them), it's a miracle they got made at all for Genesis 3.
Also, thanks to this thread, I've shucked Cris Palomino's 'Metamorphosis' into my wishlist.
I really like Skin Overlay, Aging morphs, vascularity morphs, and a few others, because it allows me to take 'vapid doll people' and turn them into more 'real' looking characters.
To me all these characters look good and not so much alike when you pay more attention but, and you can try this yourself, take a texture set from a character that in your opinion looks nothing like another character and apply that texture set and you will find the non-lookalike character that you changed to the texture set that belongs to the other character suddenly looks very much like the other character. And why shouldn't it, you just made the overwhelming majority of what is visible with that character the same as the non-lookalike character has.
Like it or not when we look at things the first & easiest thing to describe is the color tone of the skin, hair, & eyes. Now who of us is going to try and verbablly describe a face's geometry? Why even saying it out loud sounds preposterous to attempt to do such a thing accurately with any normal everyday human language.
So really, the big missing thing in DAZ is an easy way to create unique hair & skin tones with layered blemishes, moles, freckles, tanning and whatnot for characters. The morphs do a good job of creating unique characters. And there are 3rd party products that easily & randomly will generate realistic face morphs for you too.
yagakisan, Daz at least made wonderful and very individual base figures this year. For certain PAs, I would agree that their characters are looking too much alike and repeat the same stereotype ad nauseam, but not Daz. That's why meanwhile I use (and buy) more Daz base figures and Morph programs than PA characters - with a few exceptions.
Don't get me wrong - there are PA characters which are so excellent that I would never dare to alter them. Mihrelle's 'Jules' or 'Hedera Bane', for example (it would be great to have them for G3F!). But on the whole I don't expect the PA or Daz to offer me a character which is 100% to my personal liking. They give me good raw materials, and I do the fine tuning with my morphing equipment (there could be more for G3M). For me, creating my own characters from this material is sometimes more fun than composing a picture… Beauty (or the opposite) is in the eye of the beholder, and in case of 3D the 'beholder' has the chance to work out what is beautiful or ugly for him/her.
Hi caravelle, you mentioned two particular characters that show exactly what I mean, and for a tivial reason: they are modelled on real actress! (Jules= Kristen Stewart; Hedera Bane=Helena Bowman Carter).
What I'm saying is that the difference between most of the G3F characters is very slight, the main somatic is the same and if you take a pic of the faces without hair and colors is not so easy to recognize one from another.
Real people have very different somatics, but you can still say they are "beauty", or have personality, so I don't agree with the statement that PAs continue to use the same basic G3F somatic because is the only one who sell... I wonder what would happen if they start creating characters based on real people, yes, let's say "real beautiful people", just to respect the trend. :)
Hi Yagakisan, You mention that G3F characters look very similar because the main somatic of G3F characters is the same. I assume you are using the term somatic to mean "body shape" or in this case face shape (from latin and greek soma = body). Probably this is due, in part at least, to the relatively limited number of polygons making up the Genesis 3 head (and body) compared to V4 which has some of the most beautiful faces ever created for 3d figures; 17000 polygons for G3f and 66830 polygons for V4.
It is possible for PA's to model G3F at higher resolution then the 17000 polygon whole body limit because they have access to the DAZ3d proprietary software which allows them to import their high resolution highly sculpted figure back into DS. You and I and all the rest of DAZ3d's clients are denied access to that software. (This is DAZ3d's right, of course, it is their software!)
Whilst some have suggested that the face shape similarity is because PA's are all modelling towards a stereotypical ideal, I find that to be somewhat unlikely, unless most of the PA's prefer the same stereotype. Let's face it there are many diverse faces that almost everyone would consider beautiful. Sure there are some fundamental symmetries that are universally acknowledged as attractive, but the range is very large (consider the attached image as a quick example).
So, I would conclude that IF there actually is a lack of variation in the faces made by DAZ3d PAs, then it is either due to PA's not using the HD software they have access to or due to lack of imagination/vision.
For peasant level clients such as ourselves, it could also be lack of imagination or vision, but lack of access to the high rez software is also an important limitation.
Thank you IsaacNewton, I didn't know at all that thing of the different number of polygons, I thought that G3 as a newer and evoluted figure would have had more than the "old" V4.
Good to know, and I think it's definitely a relevant reason.