Is the atmosphere ruined?(closed)
asterix8845
Posts: 26
Why is this forum so hostile to people? It wasn't like this before. I remember when I came here in 2011 and it was full of people posting renders and giving good advice. Now everything is deserted. What's going on? The atmosphere here has changed so much?
Post edited by asterix8845 on
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From my experience, Daz has always been slow compared to other forums I've posted on, and it doesn't seem drastically different to me today compared to when I joined. There's been a lot of grumbling about certain business decisions Daz has made, but I don't know to what extent that correlates to people actually leaving the forums.
I think OP is correct, the forums do feel a lot emptier. Not 'hostile' though. Many people just seem to have lost interest, and there's many reasons I can see for that.
There's also been a fair deal of....shall we say "natural attrition" in the last couple years.
This forum is super much alive compared to many others where you can get 1-2 new posts per week at best.
I don't post much since it seems like there are to many 'what model is this?" or "what clothing is this"" posts. At least it seems to have gotten past the many "I hate G9" posts, LOL. I am also enjoying working with AI more than DS lately, so I have been posting on more AI focused sites than here.
I don't think the forum has gotten more hostile, I think this is still a really nice corner of the internet? Maybe a little more quiet, I'm not sure.
I'm personally spending less time here lately because I've spent enough money on DAZ these last few years and I'm trying to curb my spending. And the less time I spend on this site (including the forum) the less money I spend. That's just me, I don't know if this is a wider trend.
I started in around 2012, but I remember that things changed a lot after G3 because it didn't support Poser. Once the Poser users left it wasn't as chill anymore. Then other stuff like NFTs and now AI seemed to make other people quit this hobby or leave the site.
But also, this atmosphere change doesn't seem exclusive to these forums, it's everywhere else too. A lot of the old laid back dialogue is gone. Very few are commenting directly on works anymore. Popular sites for art are just places to dump things in and people hope the algorithm promotes their work, but it gets buried instead.
I have nothing to compare by, having started last October, but so many folk here have been amazing with all my frustrated rookie questions. This forum is seriously the only reason I've made it far enough that I'm quite pleased with my renders now. I still have more to learn, and always will... but I feel like I pick up some new tidbit here at least every week.
Sure, not everyone is great, but that's anywhere.
A fair number of people quit over NFT. An even larger one over AI.
Hostile? Mmmmm, depends.
In terms of being a place were one can ask for help, i think it offers a great community willing to do it. Maybe less people than it used to, but i still don't see that many threads being ignored and sinking without at least a few answers first. So, not hostile at all on this front in my opinion.
Being a place were one can debate things that are directly or indirectly related to Daz? well it seems difficult. Is hard to debate everywere because haters, negationits and white nights are not something exclusive of this site. But there seems to be a stronger moderation here that goes well beyond just keeping things civil. Still, from were it was in 2020/2021 when i was here before, my personal feeling is there seems to be a bit (very tiny little) better now actually. I read several opinions on this new Premier debacle that a few years ago would not had been tolerated.
While is certainly a factor, I'm not saying strong moderations is the only reason there is less people posting. I think this is something that happens a lot that is not exclusive to Daz, 3D or even art; people just shift to other things. You can have a strong base, but then there is always a big temporal pool that for many reasons move from the community or the subject in question (i certainly consider myself in that pool, for now at least, trying to change it).
There is also the matter of generations. Most younger generations are not used to this format (forum). For some even reddit is old and anything older than discord is considered too old schoold to even try to adapt. And i just checked DAZ discord, still the pure NFT nonsense it was born with....pass.
Moderators are avery active. May not always agree with their decision, but it's their playground; We're tolerated (and I use the word with deliberation) so long as we don't infract rules.
I'm an original DAZ customer, and forum user. I think overall the help factor is alive and well. There are some very knowledgable people here, as well as some of the moderators. One big change from way back is the fact DAZ staff rarely visits here anymore. The vibe here, to me, seems sterile. OT is frowned upon, as well as speculation. It seems that overall forum participation is way less than before. I will just say the DAZ+ forum is near silent, other than recently with the uproar or not of the new membership tiers and pricing. That finally got some voice.
Speaking for myself, I feel like I'm less active than I have been at times in the past. That's because of external situations that don't leave me with enough time and mental energy to do as much with Daz, hence fewer questions and interactions about products, etc. But when I have had questions, people on the forum are generally remarkably helpful. I've been around for three and a half years and would never have learned to use this product without the body of knowledge represented by the forum and those who post on it. Moderators can be pretty vigilant and active, but my take on that is that - speaking as someone who has been online since the early 90s - the internet in general is just not the place it used to be. We'll leave it there.
I think there have been several changes over the years that have negatively affected the forums. One of the biggest, which I don't think many will disagree with, was the introduction of Genesis and DS 4, which split the hobby in half between those embracing the new tech and figures, and those who felt that the existing tech and figure base... and by extension those who prefered the Poser-based systems... were being prematurely shuffled out the door. Ultimately, that ended in a large number of Poser users and creators leaving the forums, but not after more than a few words were exchanged from both sides.
That said, I think... and please let me repeat that this is just an opinion based on personal observations... that a second major hit to the forum's atmosphere occurred in February of 2013, when the use of the forums was restricted to limit the posting of commercial products in process to only items that would be sold at DAZ. While there are obviously strong commercial reasons for DAZ not wanting to give possible competitors free advertising, the end result is that the Commercial forum, which used to be an exciting place that highlighted the amazing potential of what was possible within DS, has become a backwater that is used more for answering questions on older products and software than promoting new ones, as demonstrated by the fact that the average front page of that section is predominantly threads that are well over a year old. As a result, a section that should be one of the biggest attractions in the forums looks instead like it's primary purpose is for a handful of PAs to use it as a complaints department
Finally, a third issue that (again, in my experience and my opinion, your mileage may vary,) is the evolution of super-mega-threads being created like Frankenstein's monster from bits and pieces of other threads, which have become so long and cover so many topics that they become almost impossible to follow. Perhaps it is easier to follow if you're someone who has the time and commitment to read thousand-post threads on a daily basis, but in general, when every thread on a specific topic is moved into one of these multi-subject vortexes, the effect seems to become incredibly counter productive when it comes to focusing attention and creating excitement.
People these days ( not just on the forums ) seem to be a lot less tolerant of opinions which don't align with their own. Maybe it's due to social media exploiting every possible excuse for drama.
Personal opinion, just like Poser never really updated and its userbase is slowly disappearing due to age and natural causes or leaving Poser all together, Daz is it entering its turn in the same barrrel. Even your post you're asking why isn't this place the same place it was 14 years ago. I'm sure the Poser people are wondering why isn't it the same place it was 20 years ago
Times change, tools change, people change.
The current crop of up and coming artists have moved on from Daz to Blender and VRChat. I know of no one on social media that is popular and under the age of say 35 that is using Daz but the lot are using Blender and are using 3D VR Chat models on services like YouTube and Twitch. There is a new and growing market for those products and people making them. Daz really hasn't evolved to meet the current trends, you can see that in the way that the younger crowd choses animation over still images. Daz isn't setup for animation the way Blender is. If you don't believe me, go look in the Beta forum where people are still complaining every new beta that x animation tool or function still hasn't been fixed.
Again, this is all my opinion so I'm not met with the moderator slapping me with presenting opinions as facts
There are people that will say "Blender is too hard, I'm too old or have spent too much time learning Daz to learn Blender." Which is the exact same thing the Poser people said about Daz Studio
I felt there was a significant drop in activity following a spell when the forums kept erroring out for several days, maybe a week or so. It has picked up a bit since but is probably still down soemwhat. Still, it isn't as bad as some others I visit where actvity has utterly crashed or dropped very low. As others have said, chat-rooms like Discord adn Slack seem to be popular (goodness knows why) with many people.
IMHO, it`s heavy moderation (The mods do a very good job if thats Daz`s goal) that make these forums not very exciting, or fun to have social conversation and especially debate on.
I tend to only come here for peer to peer support which is exceptional.
I am still around, but participate less for unknown reasons. I mostly render men and use men's content, and for me dForce began the downward slide. After dForce, the quality of items seemed to have plummeted and the switch to genesis 9 has reduced the already somewhat dwindling masculine content to far less.
I have plenty to use for now though.
The atmosphere is mostly ok lately, at least for me. I've had worse times. It's easier if you don't take anything too seriously.
The youtube/twitch demographic is not using Blender either AFAIK.
Blender has no “live” avatar streaming options like Adobe Character animator or Reallusion Cartoon animator
or the dedicated “Vtuber/VR” apps & ecosystems out there
I have essentially switched over to 2D/cartoon animation & Comics as it is way more suitable for my increased activity and new direction on youtube.
Of course, peer to peer support here kind of has to be exceptional, given how much nuts and bolts real support there is from DAZ itself. I remember a time, not that long ago, when DAZ customer service was amazingly good, but now the response to everything seems to be to file a ticket, with a large percentage of CS requests are now taking months and even years to get addressed. I'd say that there's not a much more telling way for a company to show how much interest it has in supporting it's core business and customers... except for the fact that this is also the company that hasn't bothered to update their basic software manuals in the ten years since the days of Genesis 2, so the "basic" and "User" manuals don't even mention the current primary render engine, Iray, or what is now the secondary render engine, Filament, D-force cloth or hair, volumetrics, anything to do with the use of geometry shells, Face Transfer 1 or 2, anything about of the last four base figure systems including the new methods of creating expressions, and DAZ Connect, let alone Fillatoon or any of this latest new batches of features that are supposed to be the selling benefits of DAZ premier... As a result, for DAZ Studio to survive as a viable system, it's pretty much fallen on the more experienced users to step up and fill that void.
I'm new here and I've learned a lot from the forum, there are many people here eager to answer questions but I do feel that less people talk about the rendered work, perhaps most works cannot be published here
.
By the way I use google translate, after joining DAZ, it was the first time I had so many interactions with foreigners.
I am very happy to have this forum for communication. I have visited reddit a few times but it feels more deserted there.
Bingo... or ピンポン! as one might say in Japan. When the forum rules restricts the discusion of a lot of personal works, as well as speculating on the state of the company or upcoming products except in the most generic of ways, and many threads being clipped and then re-integrated into other threads, it can make it hard to find things to talk about that don't end up attracting moderation.
I agree with this. And I think the advertising experiment was devastating.
...yeah, DA has appeared to have gone that way. I would say a good portion of what is on there now is AI (often using their "Dream Up" engine). I've also seen an increase In what are little more than screenshots from television and film as well as what appear to even be adverts causing it to feel more like Pintrest than a gallery site.
Makes me wonder if originality has died and been replaced by instant gratification. Type in a few words, press [enter] and in a few moments...."you have art". Or, just grab something off the net, post it in your gallery, and get faves & followers..
My participation here has fallen off (particularly this year) because of a commitment to something that cannot be discussed here. (nothing "naughty"). The best way to describe it is being a "concerned citizen" and I'll leave it at that.
Could be just disappointmentt with the direction DAZ is taking lately.
I think it is a combination of factors that have changed the "atmosphere" here and reduced participation. The frequent Gateway Timeouts, the inability to upload images periodically, the advertisements that were added, and still remain in Daz Studio and DIM, the frequency of store ads and coupons that don't work as advertised, the reduced functionality of the gallery, the foray into NFTs and AI, and now the huge price increase in Daz+, are the many things that come to my mind. When you look at the forum, the most active thread is usually the thread reporting store errors. Tech support leaves tickets unanswered for months or years sometimes. These things all zap our energy and interest in participating. I know there are times lately that I see a question posted in th forum and start to answer, but decide it is not worth my time and effort. That's sad.
...true. I know of several people who left for a while and some for good because of the instabilities here in the forums. It made me turn to composing my posts in Word (which also has better spell checking) and then paste my comment in before posting .That way if a timeout occurred I didn't lose anything I wrote or accidentally got double post. The other issue I didn't care for was the inability to upload images which still comes and goes.
Personally I liked the old Gallery as you has to put your best work forward to get it accepted. and if it was, you received store credit (in the form of a voucher). I find the current gallery here just too overwhelming to look through unless you know a certian artist's name.
I only upload what I consider is my best work (and interestingly, most of it was rendered 3DL). There is also no simple way to rearrange images and the input fields for tags and products used is broken.(you used to be able to add/edit that information manually but now are forced to use what's in the "drop downs" given which is very limited)..
With as I mentioned earlier, DA appearing to turn into another "Pintrest", it difficult to find a gallery site I feel comfortable with (that I also don't have to pay to join of submit to)
The OP asks why the forum isn't the same as it was 13- almost 14- years ago. That is an eternity in the world of tech, and digital art, like on-line forums is tech. I'm a newcomer to DAZ, but I'm the admin for a forum in a different hobby that I've been involved with for more than 20 years. The single factor in lowering the traffic on my forum and others in that hobby was the advent of social media. As mentioned earlier, forums are an old format with an older user base. The "happening" places aren't forums, yet most of the DAZ forums show a lot of activity compared to those in my other hobby.
As for moderation, I've seen both a lack of moderation and incredibly intrusive moderation kill forums. That isn't the case here at all from my perspective. Good moderators work hard to find a balance- it will never please everyone. One must also keep in mind the forums on this site are those of an enterprise that sells products for a profit.
I'm a newcomer to DAZ, I don't know what the atmosphere was like in the past. I've found that if one is respectful, this community will show that in return. Members of this community have shown a lot of patience in explaining the ways of DAZ to me; time they could've spent on their own projects.