Support for 3Delight - Is it Fading? . . . and why?

WendyLuvsCatz

as a user of other software and renderers my main issue is those who use iray only functions to generate their shaders and DAZ studio’s inability to bake the results as a texture map.

A lot of other things such as layered image editor you can save a baked map from the temp folder but iray and for that matter 3Delight you cannot bake a procedural using functions such as elevation, global space, UV projection etc which is a shame as rendering the shader on a plane to produce maps for other software as I do, fails in those cases.

Fisty

I just finished my first clothing product that didn't include 3DL mats..  not because I wanted to, really, but because I pulled some tricks that I just couldn't do with 3DL.  And I know what 3DL is capable of, I've been bending it to my will since DS version 1.3.  But it was either skip 3DL or build tons of extra texture maps to pull it off, and it was already enough with the tricks I pulled that rendering the whole set brought my (old) GPU to its knees.

Daywalker Designs

alesiaschumann said:

The customer decides what to buy, basically. If I want to use 3Delight because I don't have plans to buy a Windows PC to get an NVIDIA card for IRAY, that's my choice. If I want to use a product with 3Delight shaders/textures that work right out of the box because I don't have the time/appetite to redo the surfaces in addition to creating renders, it's my choice. It's not like all products can be re-surfaced within a reasonable timeframe in the first place.

In the end, an important reason why the DAZ marketplace sells so much stuff is to cater to a crowd that prefers to buy ready-made items. If you want that crowd's money, you have to deal with its expectations. If you want to cater only to people who will create their own stuff, that's also your choice and we'll all respect it.

FSMCDesigns said:

Which is why it drives me nuts when people that use DS seem to have this notion that if something doesn't come with either an Iray or 3delight shader, it can't be used, or they refuse to purchase an addon because it uses a different shader other than what they prefer. It's called being creative for a reason and if you haven't done it, it's probably time to click on the Surfacing/rendering tab and learn about the basics of textures, shaders and materials. If DS and poser vanished tomorrow, 90% of users here would be lost, when the reality is there are many more ways and apps that can be used to create 3D art

 

 

I agree that the customer decides what to buy. Content creators have to make decisions too, especially when they find that sales don't change significantly when they release a product that doesn't support a particular render engine. Are you going expect them to spend time making 3Delight material presets when very few, if any buyers of their products are actually making use of them, based on sales numbers?

Sven Dullah

Daywalker Designs said:

alesiaschumann said:

The customer decides what to buy, basically. If I want to use 3Delight because I don't have plans to buy a Windows PC to get an NVIDIA card for IRAY, that's my choice. If I want to use a product with 3Delight shaders/textures that work right out of the box because I don't have the time/appetite to redo the surfaces in addition to creating renders, it's my choice. It's not like all products can be re-surfaced within a reasonable timeframe in the first place.

In the end, an important reason why the DAZ marketplace sells so much stuff is to cater to a crowd that prefers to buy ready-made items. If you want that crowd's money, you have to deal with its expectations. If you want to cater only to people who will create their own stuff, that's also your choice and we'll all respect it.

FSMCDesigns said:

Which is why it drives me nuts when people that use DS seem to have this notion that if something doesn't come with either an Iray or 3delight shader, it can't be used, or they refuse to purchase an addon because it uses a different shader other than what they prefer. It's called being creative for a reason and if you haven't done it, it's probably time to click on the Surfacing/rendering tab and learn about the basics of textures, shaders and materials. If DS and poser vanished tomorrow, 90% of users here would be lost, when the reality is there are many more ways and apps that can be used to create 3D art

 

 

I agree that the customer decides what to buy. Content creators have to make decisions too, especially when they find that sales don't change significantly when they release a product that doesn't support a particular render engine. Are you going expect them to spend time making 3Delight material presets when very few, if any buyers of their products are actually making use of them, based on sales numbers?

So the answer to OP's question is Yes, it is fading! I'll be the last man standing

RawArt

You have to also remember that most PA's are also artists, and as such work for what inspires them. Not all PA's are as interested in the business end of it, so the extra work to make the 3dl files does not hold much sway to them.

The workload is not double...but it is just boring, and it is also (speaking as an artist) to see something that you make, and looks so cool in iray, look "half-a$$ed" in 3dl. Plus 3dl renders soooo slow, having to wait 10min just to see how a simple tweak looks in your material settings is a PITA...because it usually takes hundreds of such tweaks to get a thing looking decent.

 

Oso3D

Another problem touched on previously is that there are loads of different ways to do 3DL stuff, which means chances are any 3DL stuff a content creator adds is going to have to be adjusted and fit into whatever shaders, lighting, etc that the customer uses.

I mean, look at 'glow.' There's ambient, ambient with UE2 to provide indirect lighting, areamesh, Reflective Radiant's emission, etc.

Then SSS. There's UberSurface, US2, AoA SSS shaders, etc. All of them require different set-ups and tweaking.

Then Glass. Holy smoke, glass. There are DOZENS of different approaches to glass and refraction.

 

Given that most 3DL users will have to make lots of adjustments anyway... what, really, is the payoff in making explicitly 3DL settings rather than Iray materials? I've converted Iray to 3DL all the time and done radically different things with it. (That freebie script of Esemwy's solves one of the big problems with doing that)

Really, a product with Iray materials has everything you need to work in 3DL. You'd almost always be doing the same work anyway.

 

drzap

That's a pity to see 3Delight fading in DS.  It' a pretty good renderer if you know how to use it.  I've been able to coax it to make some gems for me on the Maya plugin.   Unfortunately, the free version is limited to only 8 cores, so I can't use it for production work.  But it can do some stuff.  It's still being used in many feature movies.

Chohole

drzap said:

That's a pity to see 3Delight fading in DS.  It' a pretty good renderer if you know how to use it.  I've been able to coax it to make some gems for me on the Maya plugin.   Unfortunately, the free version is limited to only 8 cores, so I can't use it for production work.  But it can do some stuff.  It's still being used in many feature movies.

the version in DS wil use as many cores as it is given (on a single machine)

drzap

Chohole said:

drzap said:

That's a pity to see 3Delight fading in DS.  It' a pretty good renderer if you know how to use it.  I've been able to coax it to make some gems for me on the Maya plugin.   Unfortunately, the free version is limited to only 8 cores, so I can't use it for production work.  But it can do some stuff.  It's still being used in many feature movies.

the version in DS wil use as many cores as it is given (on a single machine)

Yeah, I know, but it is very limited compared to the stand-alone version or the plugin to Maya.  It has a PBR engine, can bake to textures, human skin shaders..... too many features to list.

[edit]  I forgot to mention hair shader.... It has a great hair shader!

GeoffreyHawkins

Daywalker Designs said:

alesiaschumann said:

I agree that the customer decides what to buy. Content creators have to make decisions too, especially when they find that sales don't change significantly when they release a product that doesn't support a particular render engine. Are you going expect them to spend time making 3Delight material presets when very few, if any buyers of their products are actually making use of them, based on sales numbers?

As the OP, you answered my question about return on investment.  Thank you.  I respect that you and other PAs need to do what is in your own best interests. As I noted, I've been away for six years and I'm looking for insight as to how and why things are changing and if and when I'm going to need to adapt.

I'm going to stick with 3Delight for the time being.  I just spent over $1.5K over the last few months (thanks to all the various sales) to get my resources well stocked.  And only one product out of the hundreds I purchased was Iray only.  As I said, I respect the PA position on "Iray only".  But as a consumer, I just want to say that I have money to spend if you want it.  

Sven Dullah

drzap said:

That's a pity to see 3Delight fading in DS.  It' a pretty good renderer if you know how to use it.  I've been able to coax it to make some gems for me on the Maya plugin.   Unfortunately, the free version is limited to only 8 cores, so I can't use it for production work.  But it can do some stuff.  It's still being used in many feature movies.

That's a very nice render!

drzap

That's a very nice render!   

Thank you, but to be honest, the artist who created Darius 6 did an extremely nice job with the textures.  It is hard not to do a good render of him, no matter which renderer you use.  By the way, how did you get the picture to display so big?  I can never do that when I attach a photo.

RSand55

I still use 3Delight as well as Iray and have gotten really great results with 3DL. I'd like to see it still viable in the future.

From my standpoint at least, I find it much easier to use.

Sven Dullah

drzap said:

That's a very nice render!   

Thank you, but to be honest, the artist who created Darius 6 did an extremely nice job with the textures.  It is hard not to do a good render of him, no matter which renderer you use.  By the way, how did you get the picture to display so big?  I can never do that when I attach a photo.

Open your attachment and rightclick to copy the URL, then click the postcard icon and paste into the URL bar, set width to 800,which is the max allowed.

Ivy

I feel for the new people just starting with daz theyhave really have missed out on so much in the experience of actually having to do lighting,   Iray is so simple to use a monkey can do it( I saw a commercial)

 Even though I love to use Iray for a lot things I render , when it comes to using daz studio for animation, the 3Delight renderman render engine is still my prefer choice for creating cartoon animation with 3delight.  I can control the shadows and dramatic lighting, much better , I can make points of lights into light,flares, I can set amebiet Atmosphere up to render 10x faster in 3dl than Iray etc. Really no kidding I have top notchs equipment and when creating animation with daz studio  Iray animations take 5x time longer to create and render then 3delight.  that would be my biggest reseaon for using 3DL over iray for cartoon animation,  everything else I don't mind using iray for , though I have enough content now that it really does not matter what is released or not to me anymore. I just buy what I like and can use.  either iray or 3delight, 

wolf359

drzap said:

That's a very nice render!   

Thank you, but to be honest, the artist who created Darius 6 did an extremely nice job with the textures.  It is hard not to do a good render of him, no matter which renderer you use. 

 

Indeed he is about to make his debut as a high ranking military
officer  in my film project. Excellent skin textures!!!

hacsart

Sven Dullah said:

So the answer to OP's question is Yes, it is fading! I'll be the last man standing

Nah.. I'll be right there with you.. 

Mattymanx

Lighting in 3DL was a major stumbeling block for new uses and even seasoned users alike.  3DL is also a major beast of a render engine that was never really intended for home use but instead render farms.

Mustakettu85

One of the hardcore DS/3Delight crowd here. Been hacking at it since almost ten years ago. Tried just about every addition (from presets to actual new shaders) that the DAZ store and the community offered. Ran into a crazy amount of incompatibilities, weirdness and general inconveniences mentioned above.

Ended up having to develop a completely custom suite of RSL shaders and DS "render scripts" just to have everything make sense and do exactly what I wanted it to do.

I thought about releasing my kit to the general public, but then Iray came along, so I happily decided to be selfish =D I just don't want to be providing technical support to the general public - I have a real job and no desire to become a full-time "published artist" because let's face it, this business is damn close to show business. For people with my mindset, it's only fun as a hobby.

Mattymanx said:

3DL is also a major beast of a render engine that was never really intended for home use but instead render farms.

Exactly. The 3Delight developers natively support Maya, Max and other high-end apps. That's why they have had physically based everything there for a while and get all the new developments easily accessible.

The "3Delight" that is referred to in the DS world is a crippled ancient ghost.

Not only because the built-in 3Delight version is two (!!) years old. But because a lot of the features that are there can only be accessed from DS by a lot of custom coding.

kyoto kid

Sven Dullah said:

Daywalker Designs said:

alesiaschumann said:

The customer decides what to buy, basically. If I want to use 3Delight because I don't have plans to buy a Windows PC to get an NVIDIA card for IRAY, that's my choice. If I want to use a product with 3Delight shaders/textures that work right out of the box because I don't have the time/appetite to redo the surfaces in addition to creating renders, it's my choice. It's not like all products can be re-surfaced within a reasonable timeframe in the first place.

In the end, an important reason why the DAZ marketplace sells so much stuff is to cater to a crowd that prefers to buy ready-made items. If you want that crowd's money, you have to deal with its expectations. If you want to cater only to people who will create their own stuff, that's also your choice and we'll all respect it.

FSMCDesigns said:

Which is why it drives me nuts when people that use DS seem to have this notion that if something doesn't come with either an Iray or 3delight shader, it can't be used, or they refuse to purchase an addon because it uses a different shader other than what they prefer. It's called being creative for a reason and if you haven't done it, it's probably time to click on the Surfacing/rendering tab and learn about the basics of textures, shaders and materials. If DS and poser vanished tomorrow, 90% of users here would be lost, when the reality is there are many more ways and apps that can be used to create 3D art

 

 

I agree that the customer decides what to buy. Content creators have to make decisions too, especially when they find that sales don't change significantly when they release a product that doesn't support a particular render engine. Are you going expect them to spend time making 3Delight material presets when very few, if any buyers of their products are actually making use of them, based on sales numbers?

So the answer to OP's question is Yes, it is fading! I'll be the last man standing

...I'll probably be standing right alongside.

Daywalker Designs

GeoffreyHawkins said:

Daywalker Designs said:

alesiaschumann said:

I agree that the customer decides what to buy. Content creators have to make decisions too, especially when they find that sales don't change significantly when they release a product that doesn't support a particular render engine. Are you going expect them to spend time making 3Delight material presets when very few, if any buyers of their products are actually making use of them, based on sales numbers?

As the OP, you answered my question about return on investment.  Thank you.  I respect that you and other PAs need to do what is in your own best interests. As I noted, I've been away for six years and I'm looking for insight as to how and why things are changing and if and when I'm going to need to adapt.

I'm going to stick with 3Delight for the time being.  I just spent over $1.5K over the last few months (thanks to all the various sales) to get my resources well stocked.  And only one product out of the hundreds I purchased was Iray only.  As I said, I respect the PA position on "Iray only".  But as a consumer, I just want to say that I have money to spend if you want it.  

Some choose to despite the additional work needed; I know I plan to do it because I know folks out there want it.

kyoto kid

drzap said:

That's a pity to see 3Delight fading in DS.  It' a pretty good renderer if you know how to use it.  I've been able to coax it to make some gems for me on the Maya plugin.   Unfortunately, the free version is limited to only 8 cores, so I can't use it for production work.  But it can do some stuff.  It's still being used in many feature movies.

...that's impressive.

When a render engine (which has it's own standlone version) is fully embedded in software it tends to involve compromises that limit it's capabilities.  If Daz had full access to all of 3DL's settings and options, we could be creating images like yours and Iray for Daz would be an afterthought. Of course the same can be said for Iray as well but the one difference, a biased engine actually allows for more creative flexibility as to appearance and style while a physically based one it is effectively like photography, you can't change the final look much without a lot of post processing.

Someone mentioned about 10 min for a test render being too long. Crikey, I'm lucky if I can get a test render of a character in a simple "photoshoot setting" with Iray to finish in  25 - 30 min. Meanwhile the same type of test in 3DL goes so fast that I could use a stopwatch to time it (this system was built with maximising 3DL performance in mind, the GPU was just for improved viewport performance). 

Daywalker Designs

kyoto kid said:

drzap said:

That's a pity to see 3Delight fading in DS.  It' a pretty good renderer if you know how to use it.  I've been able to coax it to make some gems for me on the Maya plugin.   Unfortunately, the free version is limited to only 8 cores, so I can't use it for production work.  But it can do some stuff.  It's still being used in many feature movies.

...that's impressive.

When a render engine (which has it's own standlone version) is fully embedded in software it tends to involve compromises that limit it's capabilities.  If Daz had full access to all of 3DL's settings and options, we could be creating images like yours and Iray for Daz would be an afterthought. Of course the same can be said for Iray as well but the one difference, a biased engine actually allows for more creative flexibility as to appearance and style while a physically based one it is effectively like photography, you can't change the final look much without a lot of post processing.

Someone mentioned about 10 min for a test render being too long. Crikey, I'm lucky if I can get a test render of a character in a simple "photoshoot setting" with Iray to finish in  25 - 30 min. Meanwhile the same type of test in 3DL goes so fast that I could use a stopwatch to time it (this system was built with maximising 3DL performance in mind, the GPU was just for improved viewport performance). 

I'm sure Kettu and a few of the other folks out there that know 3Delight inside out as it's implemented in DAZ Studio could probably come close to what is done in Maya, since a lot of that power is probably accessible via the scripted 3Delight implementation.

kyoto kid

Mattymanx said:

Lighting in 3DL was a major stumbeling block for new uses and even seasoned users alike.  3DL is also a major beast of a render engine that was never really intended for home use but instead render farms.

..for some.  For myself, having come from a theatrical lighting background it was fairly easy to relate to (until UE cam out with all that sampling rubbish).  As I mentioned adjusting intensity by percentages is what we did.  We didn't bother with lumens.  For adjusting colour we used gels ("light colour" in 3DL) instead of temperature. I found it all rather simple back then and still do now.

Iray is also intended for professional production use. There are features in the standalone that can be accessed through plugins for software like 3DS Max that we with Daz will never be able to use just like 3DL.

kyoto kid

Mustakettu85 said:

One of the hardcore DS/3Delight crowd here. Been hacking at it since almost ten years ago. Tried just about every addition (from presets to actual new shaders) that the DAZ store and the community offered. Ran into a crazy amount of incompatibilities, weirdness and general inconveniences mentioned above.

Ended up having to develop a completely custom suite of RSL shaders and DS "render scripts" just to have everything make sense and do exactly what I wanted it to do.

I thought about releasing my kit to the general public, but then Iray came along, so I happily decided to be selfish =D I just don't want to be providing technical support to the general public - I have a real job and no desire to become a full-time "published artist" because let's face it, this business is damn close to show business. For people with my mindset, it's only fun as a hobby.

Mattymanx said:

3DL is also a major beast of a render engine that was never really intended for home use but instead render farms.

Exactly. The 3Delight developers natively support Maya, Max and other high-end apps. That's why they have had physically based everything there for a while and get all the new developments easily accessible.

The "3Delight" that is referred to in the DS world is a crippled ancient ghost.

Not only because the built-in 3Delight version is two (!!) years old. But because a lot of the features that are there can only be accessed from DS by a lot of custom coding.

..I wish somebody who understands the ins and outs of RSL would.  3DL still has too many good features for artists who are not interested in seeing how close as they can get to creating "digital photographs" on their computers.  As I mentioned I was involved in the old "Realistic Renders" thread. I finally bailed because I was spending more time chasing chasing a pipe dream (that I could more easily do by just getting a camera out) than I was creating the work I originally got into this for.  Just because a rendered scene isn't photo real doesn't make it "rubbish".  If that were the case, then painters whould have dumped their canvases, brushes, and paints when photography came of age. They didn't because they saw there was still something more to their "less than real life" media, it was called personal interpretation and expression.

As many who have been here a while know, my main reason for getting into this was I no longer could paint and draw like I used to due to a physical condition that is becoming worse as the years go on.  Popular hack treatments and regimens don't work while medical treatments involve undesirable and even dangerous side effects.  It is something I realise I have to live with the best I can. With where this technology is apparently heading, I feel the type and style of work I'd like to create (particularly for illustrating my writings) is beginning to be a losing battle as well. I didn't get into this to go back into writing code again (burned out on that many years ago), I just wish to create nice illustrations that help tell stories, something I have found 3DL to be much better for.

Oso3D

This took 3 mins in Iray CPU mode.

I have an Alienware Area-51.

https://imgur.com/Yq56MhS

outrider42

Its a shame that 3DL is in a decline, because right now things are getting so interesting from a CPU hardware standpoint. Just a couple of years ago CPUs were almost entirely 4 cores and 8 threads in the high end thanks to Intel getting lazy and stagnating while AMD floundered. But with the release of AMD Ryzen we have a whole new core count war going on. Now you can buy a desktop CPU with 16 cores and 32 threads, something only a server would have had in years past. And these are good, fast cores, not the poky cores of years past.

So when people talk about 3DL being geared towards servers, well...we now have desktops with the relative power of past year's servers. CPU hardware innovation is exciting again, and 3DL users can benefit greatly from this.

Add in this potential IBL Master product that I just discovered by this thread, and 3DL users have a LOT to be excited about right now. I'm excited, and I don't even use 3DL! If that product performs like it suggests it does, that's a game changer.

It would be really nice if Daz Studio updated its 3DL plug in. What kind of custom coding are you referring to to access more features in Daz's 3DL? 

Sven Dullah

outrider42 said:

 

Add in this potential IBL Master product that I just discovered by this thread, and 3DL users have a LOT to be excited about right now. I'm excited, and I don't even use 3DL! If that product performs like it suggests it does, that's a game changer.

I agree, lots of good things going on right now!

outrider42 said:

It would be really nice if Daz Studio updated its 3DL plug in. What kind of custom coding are you referring to to access more features in Daz's 3DL? 

Check out this thread:https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/55128/3delight-laboratory-thread-tips-questions-experiments#latest

 

Sven Dullah

Oso3D said:

This took 3 mins in Iray CPU mode.

I have an Alienware Area-51.

https://imgur.com/Yq56MhS

I don't know what an Alienware is but your render looks great.

So what's your point?

kyoto kid

Oso3D said:

This took 3 mins in Iray CPU mode.

I have an Alienware Area-51.

https://imgur.com/Yq56MhS

...I have that same set and it takes about 40 - 45 min on my system at 900 x 600 with no extra characters or props using the Iray materials.

I have a nearly 5 year old "white box" nehalem i7 cpu based system with 10.5 GB of physical memory available.