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DAZ said a long time ago that they had no intention of dropping 3Delight when they introduced Iray.
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around what your saying. Are you saying that DAZ is supporting a customer base that many PAs are abandoning for supposedly good financial reasons? Just to be charitable? It would seem to me that that customer base must be substantial for DAZ to want to go to those lengths to please it. Hence, how can it not be proftiable on some level. Needless to say, I'm still confused.
Please understand, I'm not trying to be overly arguemenatative. I really appreciate everyone's feedback.
But this usage scenario makes DS material presets completely irrelevant.
I should clarify. Shaders that are designed to take advantage of the new features of iray (for example some of the glass shaders) would not work in Poser for example, wheras shaders that make use only of the basic parameters like diffuse, etc. and don't take advantage of advanced iray features (ie, much of the old content that works in 3DL and in Poser) would still usable in Poser. So if you are selling to Poser customers, you of course wouldn't switch to iray-only in that scenario.
I understand. The situation is somewhat complex, in that not all PAs sell directly to the end users, or not all of the content the make is sold that way. Those that do contract work for DAZ have to abide by the terms set down in that agreement, and that generally means providing 3Delight and Iray material presets for any products that DAZ buys from them to sell as DAZ Original products or part of bundles sold with them. Other PAs make use of the QA department and other services that DAZ provides to market their products, and are not required under those terms to provide both, though many do.
Not if the products are intended for Carrara, or Poser, though that isn't as common as it was at one time.
They didn't have to. I already know that (if you have my salon or ice cream parlor, you will see just that). Even with those "tricks", I still was never happy with those materials. And if I am not happy when I am working on something, I usually don't put my heart in it. So, recently I stopped trying to make 3DL presets. That's all.
Daz requires 3DL materials for products they buy from PAs, also know as Daz Originals. The reason is at least two-fold. One, they still support 3DL because it has been the standard for Daz Studio since the beginning an they realize not everyone has the hardware to run Iray. And two, because if they stopped supporting it, there would be all sorts of ruckus in the forums about it, just like when they stopped requiring Poser materials.
Hi Slosh - thanks for the clarification.
Just want to say I really love your products. At whatever point I get comfortably up and running on Iray your Private Eye bundle will be one of my first purchases.
I think they realize supporting 3DL is a lucrative business and it would be plain stupid not to take money from people like me, who refuse to buy Iray only products.
And why exactly do you think people would be upset if nobody cares about 3DL anymore?
After reading through this thread again I'm even more confused. Many people in various threads have stated that they buy less products because of the increasing number of Iray only products, to which the vendors respond that they lose money if they support 3DL
, this is getting ridiculous. I can of course only speak for myself but I'm sorry Slosh and all of you who won't support 3Delight, you will not get my money. That's all!
For one thing, a number of people, myself included, use both 3DL and Iray. It's not strictly an either/or.
There are not enough people interested in 3dl compared to the effort put in, in many PA's estimations. That isn't the same as 'nobody cares,' and the backlash of pulling 3DL doesn't necessarily map to the money people are willing to spend on 3DL products.
Personally, I find it unfortunate that you would deprive yourself of products you'd be otherwise interested in because you refuse to convert Iray products. But hey, you can spend your money on the many thousands of 3DL products that are still in the store, and the PAs can be better off financially, so I suppose it works out for everyone.
y'all think you have it hard convertting materials? I use octane, I set everything up from scratch for every scene :D
There have been a number of Daz Originals that have been Iray only.
For example https://www.daz3d.com/fairy-wishing-well
I use 3Delight because when I do render I do NPR. As long as there are people doing NPR there will be a place for 3Delight.
"Daz requires 3DL materials for products they buy from PAs, also know as Daz Originals." doesn't include products that may already exist such as products intended for other stores; the RDNA products are an example. Unfortunately,the path from 3DL to iRay is much easier than the other way around, and computers that aren't powerful or capable of running iRay are aging and becoming less and less. Your current computer may not be great at iRay but your next computer probably will be great at it. Now, there is a whole generation of PA's who have never rendered in 3DL and don't want to release a product that has compromised quality in one set of shaders just to keep a parity. The question is where do you get new generations of artists interested in making DS 3dl products?
Of course not! I do what I want to do, that's my choice.
Yeah I hear this thing over and over again, still doesn't make sense to me. And I could have put my words differently, let's say a few people would be rather upset if DAZ stopped supporting 3DL, which Slosh obviously is aware of.
Don't worry! If I see something I really need I will reconsider. I think I can manage to convert to 3DL if I have to. But I'd rather not
. And generally I'd rather not spend any money at all if it can be avoided.
Look, I'm sorry if I have offended somebody! And I don't want to start a war. I'm just confused because there is a paradox here that I have a hard time grasping. But nevermind, time will tell.
It is tricky if you try to gauge the demand of something by how intensely people lobby for something in the forums.... My sister had a boss who was obsessed with model trains; he would spend thousands a year on them. Now, I wouldn't recommend that one invest their life savings in making model train accesories because true model train fans are few in number even though they would spend their life savings. Since iRay is the the current default of Daz Studio, the user base of 3DL is declining slowly as the new generations of PA's who only know iRay become more successful and new users only learn iRay. As someone who has been around since Poser 2, 3DL is harder to learn than iRay provided you have a fairly current computer. It is hard to see a path backward so Daz3d is maintaining support for it users by continuing to have the option to use 3DL, and encouraging when they can to have PA's make 3DL settings but this isn't something that you can force people who have no deep knowledge to do. I'm afraid someone like me who only buys iRay products balances you who won't buy iRay products.
...Iray renders and previews faster if you have a good GPU card. I cannot run in Iray vieport mode as I have an "ancient" GT 460. Doing so immediately spills to the CPU which then fills up available physical memory causing the Daz progamme to crash. Also making any kind of move or addition to the scene takes forever for the screen to refresh.
I also don't see how Iray "out of the box" is faster in CPU mode than 3DL as like I've mentioned, I get the complete opposite results. Yeah UE does bloat render times to that of Iray CPU mode, but like I also mentioned, I rarely use it.
I started making animations as a hobby in the late 90's with InfiniD and found DS in 2012 IIRC. When Iray was introduced my first thought was wow awesome, then realized it's virtually impossible to animate in Iray with a Mac, so I focused on getting a deeper understanding of 3DL and learning to optimize my scenes for speed without losing to much quality. That's the trip I'm on and I love it. Now I've started to do more still renders, which is kind of liberating, not needing to keep rendertimes down at all costs. Learning new stuff every day. Maybe I will take on Iray if I get tired of the flipside of 3DL, who knows? Basically we all want to have some fun, so it's all good, right? I know 3DL users are an endangered species, you are absolutely right about that:) Like I said in an earlier post I'll be the last man standing possibly together with kyoto kid and hacsart
...if you can afford that "next computer"
I am on a fixed income. 450$ for even a 1070 is way out of my budget (about 40% of my monthly SS benefit). Save up? Right, I barely make it month to month, and thus keep my purchasing here fiarly light, to only content I will actually use. I have not adopted G8 because I cannot afford to sink a tonne of money into a new figure to get it to the level of usefulness I already have G3 at. Unless I get some kind of windfall, the idea of having an "up to date" system that is capable of running Iray effectively, to the point an appreciable percentage of my scenes do not dump to CPU mode, is just not in the cards. Particularly so since new systems come bundled with W10 which not only robs a noticable amount of GPU VRAM, but has other less than desireable "features".
I'm in that boat that @ghastlycomic was talking about - the analysis passes required for my NPR work can't be rendered using Iray/LPE, so I'll always have a use for 3DL. That being said, I very much enjoy rendering in Iray, too.
While reading through this thread, I couldn't help but chuckle a bit. In one breath, some are saying that PAs can't afford to take the time to make 3DL mats while in the next breath saying that conversion is easy and there's even a one-click script. Which is it? lol
My own opinion is that generally speaking a proper albedo map created for Iray is not going to work well as diffuse map for 3DL. I also believe that no matter what render engine you're talking about, mats are going to render better when designed from the ground up for that engine. What @RawArt said seems to make sense to me:
In the end, it's a choice for PAs what to support, and a choice for users what to buy . . . I love choices!
- Greg
From comments I have seen from PA's, it generally is much less profitable to include support for 3DL. Compared to iRay, it is much more work for them and more and more users are switching to iRay anyways. Why do they continue to support a dwindling user base? Good business! A customer who stops purchasing from you is a money you will probably never see again. Even if it is more effort, it is usually better to keep a customer ( who is likely to be loyal to you and possibly be an iRay user in the future) you've worked so hard to attain. It costs time, effort and sometimes money to gain a customer. It costs nothing to lose one.
I continue to support 3dl as long as it is still the default renderer in d/s.
The only reason I may release a product that does not support 3dl is if it requires an effect that can only be done with iray. If I cannot recreate it to look decent (to my eyes) in 3dl, it will not be released. (but I will always try before writing it off)
Rawn
Fair point, Algovincian!
I think it’s a bigger deal with characters since skin requires far more effort.
And while I think it’s not a sensible return on my time, I’m not terribly sensible, so I intend on providing 3dl maps when it makes sense and it doesn’t look terrible.
I’m not offended, just trying to address that confusion.
As for NPR, I personally love using Iray for a starting point for art filters and npr like stuff.
Iray is the default renderer as of its inclusion. The license of 3DL was extended at that time so that users can use both in renders.
Most appreciated, Thank You!
Thank you!
And that's why I don't use Octane anymore!
I was using Poser and Octane... figured it was finally time to jump to Genesis with Genesis 3. Then I stepped back and did a comparison of the cost of Iray vs Octane for Studio and the results. Iray won for me, still kind of a shame those Octane licenses collect dust.
...though not as expensive for many here, I shelved Reality/Lux due to the geologic render times and instabilities in R4. On my budget, that was a big expense. The "speed boost" (which with my old CPU was around 30%) was not worth the degredation in quality.