Genesis PP14 & the Furture ?
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Arguing over the usability of a feature we know only through videos is pretty pointless and should stop now. The new version of Poser has a number of features that to a greater or lesser extent, look as if they may be used to get a more fluid experience using Genesis - until we've had chance to play, and to see what DAZ does with teh DSON Importer, we aren't in a position to offer detailed commentary.
Hobbyist follow one philosophy.
Pro's another philosophy.
like http://www.experienceanomaly.com/
They used Poser n Goz,Max,Maya.
They customized or modified a lot so all the characters where original.
Still not understanding your argument here, because now (I think) you're saying in this case people are modifying content where this really isn't the methodology of the big name studios to create content specifically for a project. So if DAZ makes reusable content, that's bad but when people modifes Poser's content, that's good?
But it's not modified that much for me to recognize Kelvin (i think that's the black guy's name) on the cover.
Hobbyist follow one philosophy.
Pro's another philosophy.
like http://www.experienceanomaly.com/
They used Poser n Goz,Max,Maya.
They customized or modified a lot so all the characters where original.
Actually, the majority of the items in ANAMOLY are straight out of the DAZ/Content Paradise/RDNA catalogs, converted to grey scale and painted over in photoshop, with most of the figures that WERE modded still remaining quite recognizable as the DAZ troll, the bolladon, etc. Not to knock ANOMALY in any way, as it's an amazingly audacious piece of work, but it actually stands as perfect proof of the commercial viability of using kit content with pre-built rigging systems versus the building and rigging each figure from scratch.
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from a user POV, what a great idea, from a commercial POV, complete suicide unless they jack of the prices10x to compensate for all the lost revenue from piracy. There are soooooooo many users on the web that already hack and steal mesh from one application to another, no need to make it any easier for those losers. If anything, DAZ needs to focus on their app and their content FOR THEIR app.
Don't get me wrong, I an a 3DSMax user (cost and arm and a leg) and a poser user and would love to have native import of all my DAZ content, but i can already use workarounds in setting up scenes in both and I see way to many illegal uses of DAZ content every time I open my browser.
While piracy is something DAZ 3D deals with all the time, blocking legitimate users who wish to use DAZ content in other apps hardly seems like a good solution. Expanding the market for DAZ content is a win all around.
I use any and all app's that get's the job done fast as possible.
I don't do this vs that app my philosophy is get both cause apparently both have something to offer.
Even thou there's no GoDAZ or GoPoser.for models using GoZ ya can go from C4D to Z to DAZ to Z to Max to Z to Poser if ya wanted.
If I was going to do alot of animation I would just rig Genesis in C4D.
With Experience Anomaly you don't see any one in a superman,300,game of throwns out fit.
So Experience Anomaly has original outfits.I sincerely hope or they may end up in Court n broke.
Pro's have a difficult time shopping at CGI stores cause if they never saw 300 then they would not know they can not use that out fit in there project.
simple close Pro's could buy pretty safely but they would stay away form the more stylised out fits.unless they knew it was original ,if there smart.
The perfect scenario would be you made every thing in your comic you have copyrights to every thing in your comic.
cause if you made a comic with someone eles's character then your going to have a real bad day.
Pro's half to worry about copyrights lawyers courts etc etc it's a aggravation.
So it's just simpler to make your own content get copyrights on your own content.
So if anyone drags you to court ya got a leg to stand on.
one bad day in court you can lose everything even the shirt on your back.
I agree that expanding the market is good, but i don't view letting every application import one specific file type as expanding the market. In a perfect world each app will have very limited import/export options and DAZ assets will be sold in file formats for each app (yeah, I know, rigging, material, scaling issues galore). This way a legit user would be able to use DAZ assets in every app available and it's would be a win/win. But guess what, we are far from a perfect world and every time I read a forum some legit user is crying because of some measure used to try and protect a creators right to their IP is somehow inconveniencing them, waah, get over it.
I don't think one will need to know anything at all about rigging to use the fitting room.
When the conversion doesn't go well, you probably will as well as use other tools:
http://forum.runtimedna.com/showthread.php?78653-Why-is-the-fitting-room-giving-such-good-results-and-where-are-the-problem-area-s.&p=752776&viewfull=1#post752776
That first conversion didn't go well so the poster had to try another method involving scaling individual parts. So yeah, you may be doing a bit of work.
That first conversion didn't go well so the poster had to try another method involving scaling individual parts. So yeah, you may be doing a bit of work.
Umm, you have something against doing a little work and learning the software you're trying to work with?
And, from what I've seen, the only forums that seem to think it's SM's problem is this site. Everyone else agrees that DAZ made the split, it's their baby, now they can learn to change the diaper when it needs changing.
For myself, I'm looking forward very much to being able to use some of the clothing made for other figures on any figure. I have CC's M4/K4 script, removing any need for the gene thing. I also have ds4.5 and the dson thing, never installed, now never will be. There is no need for me to install it. If anything, DAZ needs to rewrite DS so it can use poser's weight mapping. I'm not holding my breath. Nor am I holding my breath waiting for daz to incorporate a dynamic cloth that's even reasonable, meaning more than one vendor making that cloth.
But, I guess, because they didn't bastardize their program to use the gray blob, there was no improvement. And bulls leave the substance of that argument behind them every day.
Doric.
Please remember that App Wars are a TOS violation.
Fine. I guess there was no improvement, no major changes. And everything is so complicated the average user won't be able to figure it out. Which is the same stuff the bulls leave behind every day.
@ prebuilt models vs creating everything
Trends change.
There really is no need to build everything from scratch for each project. Just by changing the surfaces for different render engines and creating some custom morphs, displacement and normal maps you can transform any pre built content into something that may look similar but still different enough to be unique.
In the end it really comes down to time and money. If studios believe that it is worth the money to hire an artist to build just another CG car model from scratch in one month then thats ok. But if the customer wants that car image the next day you are better off using DAZ content and adding a custom paint job.
I really hope that people responsible for plugin development see the demand for DS plugins to access DAZ content in other applications smoothly.
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I would very much appreciate it if applications like Maya, 3DS max and Cinema 4D would include a DAZ studio plugin that would work similar like Carrara.
And it really puzzles my mind why there is still no such feature in the current poser application. Why is poser not supporting smart content from DAZ?
This market is small enough. Why can not at least two companies that were there from the start agree on some common standards that are ready for the future?
I want to access Genesis and other DAZ products with smart content directly in other applications without the need to import and export from DS.
- - -
Thats how I see the future:
DAZ should concentrate on bringing DAZ content directly into other applications.
DAZ studio plugin for Poser
DAZ studio plugin for Maya
DAZ studio plugin for 3DS Max
DAZ studio plugin for Cinema 4D
DAZ studio plugin for After Effects
DAZ studio plugin for Vue.
and then concentrate on the rest
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Atualy about all DAZ would need to do is Rig Genesis for LW,C4D,Max,Maya.
Any App that had morphs alt to work.
As long as the CGI App had morphs ,think ya would be good to go.
Oh & Advertize that Genesis is rig for those app's probably be a good idea.
agree with this statement.
in the vids it looks sweet.
first need to see it in action.
specially the figure rig vs bullet engine.
the demo video was not that great.
why are there no 30 day trials/demo versions of poser?
i wonder why :lol:
Atualy about all DAZ would need to do is Rig Genesis for LW,C4D,Max,Maya.
Any App that had morphs alt to work.
As long as the CGI App had morphs ,think ya would be good to go.
Oh & Advertize that Genesis is rig for those app's probably be a good idea.
One for Modo sounds fine :-)
They might have one for modo already. Someday they told they created gen 4 in modo.
This is a thread about the new versions of Poser - while topic drift is a fact of forum life, this rally isn't the place to discuss DSON importers for other applications.
The Genesis is clearly specified in topic. Does the discussion on avoiding of using Poser in Genesis usage seem to be not related to Poser or Genesis? As for me, I never thought to render Genesis in DS or Poser would be a great idea.
DSON Importers for applications other than Poser are the bit that is irrelevant.
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I think a better approach to the problem is not to ask for genesis support, but rather, ask what feature of genesis is useful for your usecase, no? The more features the Poser gets, the better for everyone. If its for subdivision, poser has such a thing, if its DAZ's subdivision, thats another topic I think. You have to be fair to poser team, I think for them, adding the required features while keeping compatibility to their own tech stack, is the most responsible decision from their point of view. They will add useful features and DAZ will fix the importer, I assume, so everybody happy :)
Posers animated joints also bring lots of flexibility, see here, this is my mixer and Poser subdivision at work, this is not genesis. You can apply the genesis effect basically to any figure, thats a good thing no? My mixer does it for DAZ4.
For the whole economy, having features that can be applied to any figure is a good thing, no? You can just chose according to the use case.
Asking for features rather than for the whole stack at once helps take the heat of the discussions.
This is by far the best post I've seen in ages. The new Posers about to be released bring Subdivision very similar to DAZ's to Poser natively, which is much welcomed, and Smith Micro have previously added features like weight mapping to Poser not specifically as Genesis support but as tools for both vendors and end-users alike to use - on any 3D models they choose to. this has, on occasion, meant that Smith Micro have put some effort into implimenting suggestions of DAZ's because they (quite rightly) see the benefit of those features to the Poser community.
Likewise, DAZ have added features to DAZ Studio that THEY feel are important - which is why the programs differ. Each company seeing different techniques, or workflows, as being important for their customers. Concentrating on specific features that we would like added to Poser or to DAZ Studio seems, to me, a more productive route overall.
Cheers,
Cliff
As for Genesis future I'd prefer not to import it into Poser, but (having in future DS release a good animation toolset) animate the figure in the DS, import the animation into, say, modo, add hairs (I know, modo's hairs module is not best but still it is better than all examples of DS or Poser dynamic hairs), finetune materials, clean up or alter animations and render with modo render. (Modo import is possible through mdd but it is not flexible.)
In my opinion Poser Firefly will never reach professional standarts in quality. Same I think of DS 3Delight realisation. While itself standalong 3Delight seems to be very reliable, bound to DS it looks very puny. Thus, in my opinion, for me the most attractive and useful part of all Daz3D software is Genesis. I have most of Daz products and found it waste of money, especially Carrara, as it never was perfectly finished product after it was acquired by Daz. Because of Carrara and Hexagon I bought Modo, because of Bryce I got Vue. The only thing that attracts me to DS is Genesis. I think the CCT is also strong part of DS but it is badly documented and it takes too much time digging sources to get bits of knowledge of how CCT works.
Well, in short, for me the Genesis future is the ability to use it with ease in a wide range of different software even if Genesis will alvays be natively hosted by DazStudio.
This would sound reasonable, except if you don't want DAZ's tech, honestly you need your own officially supported figures and not hack what you have to really end up with a bad copy of what genesis is.
If I can be honest: You really didn't make a teen with your solution; you made a smaller M4. From facial to body details, the same shoulder of M4, this is not what a teen looks like. You would almost need to go back and customize the face and body with a modelling tool, which could be done with m4 alone and some rigging adjustments. I think I made a better set of teens with my Ashley International M4 and Santo M4, which you could scale down to a teen size, if you wished.
And that's what really been done in Poser since the introduction of Genesis: Hacking and refitting. No figure innovations, nothing leading the way. If it had been really leading the way instead of keeping tech at Poser 6 for 10 years, it could have easily had put in the necessary tech where Genesis could have just been dropped in rather than DAZ not waiting anymore and doing it themselves. And that's really a shame, because it is a good piece of software, but it's really now down to either supporting Genesis properly or releasing figures that will take Gen4's place, because Gen 4 won't be out forever.
Edit: To show you an example, here's a really, really rough draft of a project I started a few years ago to turn M4 into a younger character including rigging adjusts so it loads in at the height of Luke 3. It needed lots of work (including finishing the facial morph) because JCMs to be added to fix bending issues and of course clothing support (which you could use something like crossdresser to create new copies of clothing), but if you are going to do it, it really needs to be done property.
I eventually tossed the product because at the time, no one wanted to support teens, especially a male which is really a recurring theme on Poser characters and this eventually got transferred to Genesis.
Did DAZ leave the cr2 exporter intact on DS4.5?
I know it sounds OT but I removed DS4 a while back and never installed 4.5. Back in the pre-DSON days, I used the cr2 exporter method to test Genesis in P9. While I found the DSON imported Genesis to cause major slow downs, I have no such issues with my Genesis done the 'older' way. I'll be interested to see what happens with that version Genesis and the new subD.
Granted the old cr2 export method doesn't give you the active morphs of DSON but it does alleviate some of the other issues.
You say more by omission than in words. Such as, what is genesis? It's a figure, one single figure, requiring a software that is in eternal beta and without documentation to fully implement. One that has been picked up by exactly no other software as native. And so it can "have a future in Poser", in your mind, SM should take the responsibility to change their code. No, that isn't real world, that's fantasy. What you're asking is the same thing as asking Chrysler to build you a 300G, only with a Honda Civic engine, and you'd end up with something almost as good as a Yugo.
If there's a bad copy, it's the gray blob, not CC's scripts. They work, very nicely. It's what you ignore, that the full range of body and face morphs is available and he used none in his example. Were I going to use it when I get my (physical) copy of PP 2014, it would be one of the first things installed. But as I'm not going to bother with the M or V things in that box, I still don't regret buying it, if it lets him continue on to the other figures, then I've supported something worthwhile. IT will be nice to have something without the Vargas proportions.
I omitted nothing. If SM doesn't want to use DAZ's tech, which certain things didn't work even before Genesis, such as scaling, then they should be working on a viable alternative. And scaling isn't 100% as you have to adjust the collar on figures such as F5 in 2012 SR3 in order for it to work. And those Poser users that don't want the tech really should find and support another alternative as well rather than hack solutions out of Gen 4, as it's not going to be around forever. So all this other stuff you're talking about is really moot.
If there's a bad copy, it's the gray blob, not CC's scripts. They work, very nicely. It's what you ignore, that the full range of body and face morphs is available and he used none in his example. Were I going to use it when I get my (physical) copy of PP 2014, it would be one of the first things installed. But as I'm not going to bother with the M or V things in that box, I still don't regret buying it, if it lets him continue on to the other figures, then I've supported something worthwhile. IT will be nice to have something without the Vargas proportions.
No it's the scripts, sorry to inform you. And you know it too. You're not going to get a believable teen by pulling adult features into a child. You sculpt it then properly rig it. It's not believable at all when you have a 8 year old with big thighs, abs and bulging shoulders. And that really has nothing with Genesis at all.
Uh-huh. Yeah. sure. And I'll live to see genesis adopted as the world wide standard by every major company in every field. That isn't going to happen, SM isn't going to change their core programming to accommodate something that basically is flawed from the beginning. And in your mind, nothing will work for any purpose but gene thing, ignoring that the gray blob is probably the most expensive way to do anything, in Poser, the least convenient. Bulging shoulders? Sounds like a daz problem to me, they created both figures. Rex doesn't have those, didn't look like Roxie did either. Sounds more like a daz thing. Oh, that's right! SM used weight mapping to eliminate those, and ds doesn't know what that is. Maybe that was cheating.
SM has improved Poser a lot, given us a lot of powerful tools, but for one shortcoming that isn't a shortcoming, in your mind, it's nothing. List all the real improvements in ds in the last two years, and I don't mean the myriad bug fixes they'd had to do. Then ridicule CC"s script, and ignore that from daz, nothing like it has emerged, and won't. The script works, your arguments are null, moreso as you probably don't have it to comment with any experience. The fitting room has taken away one of your arguments against any new figure that's come out, Poser users won't have to even think about how well it's supported. I suppose you probably see that as a threat to the gray blob, which is fine. Both that you see it that way, and that it is. SM might even take a hint from the script and design figures that use the same methods, but will work natively in Poser, which it's obvious you don't want. IT works as well as gene, and it works without SM having to bastardize their core. It doesn't require a specialized figure that has only one source and is ridiculously expensive. Now, why would that bother you? If there's a future for the gene thing in Poser depends on daz, not SM. SM is going in the right direction.