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Subsurface Shaders... WOW!

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  • MABMAB Posts: 148
    edited December 1969

    HeraldOfFire said:
    Strixowl said:
    Geometry Shell. What is it and how do I do it ?

    Think of a geometry shell as a coating over your 3D model. It shares the same surfaces but is offset slightly, so you can use it for many different effects. To add one, you can either use the Create -> New Geometry Shell option, or find the shortcut icon for it which looks like a filled-in cube. Geometry shells cannot be created without a parent, so select the object you want to create a shell for before adding the geometry shell.

    Thanks for this great reply. I too was wondering about this, but was too busy to ask. Figured I'd ask when I actually had time to play around with it. lol

  • StrixowlStrixowl Posts: 301
    edited December 1969

    MAB said:
    HeraldOfFire said:
    Strixowl said:
    Geometry Shell. What is it and how do I do it ?

    Think of a geometry shell as a coating over your 3D model. It shares the same surfaces but is offset slightly, so you can use it for many different effects. To add one, you can either use the Create -> New Geometry Shell option, or find the shortcut icon for it which looks like a filled-in cube. Geometry shells cannot be created without a parent, so select the object you want to create a shell for before adding the geometry shell.

    Thanks for this great reply. I too was wondering about this, but was too busy to ask. Figured I'd ask when I actually had time to play around with it. lol

    Yes thank you great reply. Very clear analogy and concise how to. :-)

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,040
    edited June 2013

    Richard Haseltine said:
    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...been running into an odd "striping" issue along the neck and arms when applying the Toon or SSS toolbox skin shaders.


    It seems to occur only on some characters like Nata and my Leela Teen.

    There was some discussion of this - I think the fix was lowering the Shading rate, or possibly adjusting the Sub surface scale.
    ...I'll try that. Seems to happen only with some third party skin shaders like the ones I use for Leela (JW's Tindra Thompson maps).

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • Laticis ImageryLaticis Imagery Posts: 474
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...been running into an odd "striping" issue along the neck and arms when applying the Toon or SSS toolbox skin shaders.


    It seems to occur only on some characters like Nata and my Leela Teen.

    There was some discussion of this - I think the fix was lowering the Shading rate, or possibly adjusting the Sub surface scale.


    ...I'll try that. Seems to happen only with some third party skin shaders like the ones I use for Leela (JW's Tindra Thompson maps).

    The best thing would be to adjust your Shading Rate or render larger.
    Adjusting the SubSurface Scale will effect the initial SSS effect ( mainly noticeable around the ears )

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,040
    edited December 1969

    ...on the one pic with Leela where this happened I was already at 900 x 1200 for the scene. Restored the original shaders so I could complete the pic and will experiment with single figures for the time being.

  • Laticis ImageryLaticis Imagery Posts: 474
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...on the one pic with Leela where this happened I was already at 900 x 1200 for the scene. Restored the original shaders so I could complete the pic and will experiment with single figures for the time being.

    Lowering the SSS Shading Rate will fix that and is probably the best step to make.
    If you had render at 1800 x 2400 you would find that should also fix that.
    Both choices lead to an increase in render times.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,040
    edited December 1969

    Laticis said:
    Kyoto Kid said:
    ...on the one pic with Leela where this happened I was already at 900 x 1200 for the scene. Restored the original shaders so I could complete the pic and will experiment with single figures for the time being.

    Lowering the SSS Shading Rate will fix that and is probably the best step to make.
    If you had render at 1800 x 2400 you would find that should also fix that.
    Both choices lead to an increase in render times.

    ...I'll try the SSS shading rate first as I don't like to render in such huge sizes since I tend to use older props and sets (commercial and freebie) that don't always include large texture maps.

  • Swawa3DSwawa3D Posts: 231
    edited June 2013

    I'm impressed with all the amazing stuff people have been doing with these shaders. The sharing of info & settings has been very helpful. Thanks!

    I finally got around to experimenting with these & produced a render I'm happy with. I used plastic for the body, gummy for the wings, & the toon eyes. I also found the toolbox useful for quick tweaks and visualizing. It took a lot of trial & error, tweaking the scale, rate, ID groups, diffuse/subsurface/ambient strength/color, contribution & lighting to get a result I was happy with. If anyone wants to know specific settings I will look them up but I don't really feel like an expert with these shaders just yet.

    For lighting I used DTs Skies of Economy for a base: UE2 (ambient), Distant Light (key) & skydome (for reflections). I modified the intensity, color & the image maps (hue / saturation) to get the purple tint. I added a distant spec only light at a low intensity from the camera angle just to bring out the shape a little more. I also did a little post work for minor adjustments and worked with a depth map using the Atmospheric Effects Cameras.

    A full list of the content used is provided on dA: http://swawa3d.deviantart.com/art/Beata-Aves-Midnight-Flight-3679-378255028

    I had a few questions that came up as I went through this forum & experimented:

    1. Generally which figure surfaces should have the same ID. Looking at the Toon shaders it looks like everything but the inner mouth parts have the same ID and the eyes don't use the subsurface shader? I'm wondering if the nails should use a separate ID, maybe if they have nail polish?

    2. Surfaces with the same ID must have the same rate, scale & IOR. Does IOR include "Reflection IOR" or can that vary?

    3. One thing I still struggle with is that the plastic & gummy shaders often cause fingers and toes to be dark. I know I can fix that by lowering the scale but then a lot of the effect seems to decrease. I guess messing with the other settings like diffuse, subsurface & ambient might help with this?

    4. Has anyone tried using image maps for subsurface? I heard they might not be needed as much but I'm still curious of the results.

    5. I know the subsurface color will depend on many variables but are there any general guidelines for what types of color to use when?

    6. I've seen a lot of skin settings but I would love to see settings for teeth, inner mouth, eyes, etc.

    Thanks a lot if anyone can help with any of these questions.

    beata-aves-midnight-flight-3679-by-swawa3d.jpg
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    Post edited by Swawa3D on
  • Lissa_xyzLissa_xyz Posts: 6,116
    edited December 1969

    ^ I love that! Nice touch matching the bot details to the color on the buildings.

  • Swawa3DSwawa3D Posts: 231
    edited June 2013

    Vaskania said:
    ^ I love that! Nice touch matching the bot details to the color on the buildings.

    Thanks!

    Post edited by Swawa3D on
  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,240
    edited December 1969

    Swawa3D, the is exceptionally creative! Very nice use of the shaders, too.

  • Swawa3DSwawa3D Posts: 231
    edited December 1969

    barbult said:
    Swawa3D, the is exceptionally creative! Very nice use of the shaders, too.

    Thanks. It started out as just an experiment to learn the shaders but I really liked how it was turning out so I worked it into a full render. I love the versatility of genesis, it really helps with experimentation.

  • jakibluejakiblue Posts: 7,281
    edited December 1969

    DIM is showing the base shader as updated - anyone know what the update was?

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,240
    edited December 1969

    jakiblue said:
    DIM is showing the base shader as updated - anyone know what the update was?

    The read me was not updated, but from looking at the downloaded files, it looks like files were moved from Shaders to Shader Presets.
  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,089
    edited June 2013

    Yes. The update just moved the location from Shaders to Shader Presets I think.

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,240
    edited December 1969

    Zev0 said:
    Yes. The update just moved the location from Shaders to Shader Presets I think.

    Zev0, do you know why that was done? Surely the new subsurface shader is really a shader, if ever there was one. It makes sense that gummy and plastic would be shader presets, but why the base shader????
  • Zev0Zev0 Posts: 7,089
    edited June 2013

    No freaking idea lol.. When I found out it was changed I cancelled my download. I like it where it is to be honest..Maybe it was changed because future SSS products will be saved there IE Presets, so I am assuming we will see more presets. Other than that I have no idea why:) But to move the main shader to the same locations still has me scratching my head:)

    Post edited by Zev0 on
  • jakibluejakiblue Posts: 7,281
    edited December 1969

    thanks guys! I did check the readme but it didn't have any updates so was curious.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,212
    edited December 1969

    Seem to be having an issue here. Seems when trying to apply the shaders I continually get this error message below. When I investigated it's true, the folders are missing in the data folder! This is the most updated version so not sure why they are not present.

    Thanks

    Richard

    MissingFoldersAgeOfArmor.jpg
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  • Swawa3DSwawa3D Posts: 231
    edited December 1969

    RAMWolff said:
    Seem to be having an issue here. Seems when trying to apply the shaders I continually get this error message below. When I investigated it's true, the folders are missing in the data folder! This is the most updated version so not sure why they are not present.

    Thanks

    Richard


    Yesterday I installed "16324_SubsurfaceShaderBase_1.1_trx.exe" manually (I have not started using DIM yet) along with all the 1.1 add ons (gummy/plastic, toon, toolbox). I'm not sure it makes a difference but I did previously install the 1.0 versions. I tested out several shaders/presets, no problems on my end yet. In the product library the DIM version looks a lot smaller but I don't know how DIM works. http://www.daz3d.com/downloader/customer/files/#prod_16324.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,212
    edited June 2013

    Reinstalled by hand and got the folder in place. Want to get a nice skin shader tone for my existing Bruno textures. Looks like this will be a useful shader so far. YAY!

    Post edited by RAMWolff on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,040
    edited June 2013

    Swawa3D said:
    RAMWolff said:
    Seem to be having an issue here. Seems when trying to apply the shaders I continually get this error message below. When I investigated it's true, the folders are missing in the data folder! This is the most updated version so not sure why they are not present.

    Thanks

    Richard


    Yesterday I installed "16324_SubsurfaceShaderBase_1.1_trx.exe" manually (I have not started using DIM yet) along with all the 1.1 add ons (gummy/plastic, toon, toolbox). I'm not sure it makes a difference but I did previously install the 1.0 versions. I tested out several shaders/presets, no problems on my end yet. In the product library the DIM version looks a lot smaller but I don't know how DIM works. http://www.daz3d.com/downloader/customer/files/#prod_16324.



    ...I think the 1.1 versions just move them to the Shader Subsets folder from the Shaders one. Since I perform manually installs myself no reason to get the update as I use a custom runtime/library setup anyway which most likely would confuse the daylights out of the DIM.

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • IndigoneIndigone Posts: 86
    edited December 1969

    Richard Haseltine said:
    Indigone said:
    These are fantastic and fun shaders! I hope you make more AoA!

    I have a question about your lighting that you say you use. Why do you load an ambient light like UE2 *and* a sky dome? Doesn't UE2 come with it's own sphere? Do you delete that?

    Thanks and thanks.

    The UE2 sphere is just a guide - the image is low-resolution, and is set not to render though that can be changed.

    Late, but thank you.

    Where do you get the better sky dome? Is it something you build out of a sphere, or is it something I can download/buy?

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 100,784
    edited December 1969

    Indigone said:
    Richard Haseltine said:
    Indigone said:
    These are fantastic and fun shaders! I hope you make more AoA!

    I have a question about your lighting that you say you use. Why do you load an ambient light like UE2 *and* a sky dome? Doesn't UE2 come with it's own sphere? Do you delete that?

    Thanks and thanks.

    The UE2 sphere is just a guide - the image is low-resolution, and is set not to render though that can be changed.

    Late, but thank you.

    Where do you get the better sky dome? Is it something you build out of a sphere, or is it something I can download/buy?

    There are a couple of products in the store that include, I think, a full-resolution sky dome map to match the environment map - it's the map that governs quality, not the geometry of the sphere it's displayed on.

  • Swawa3DSwawa3D Posts: 231
    edited December 1969

    Kyoto Kid said:

    ...I think the 1.1 versions just move them to the Shader Subsets folder from the Shaders one. Since I perform manually installs myself no reason to get the update as I use a custom runtime/library setup anyway which most likely would confuse the daylights out of the DIM.

    Your probably correct but since I did not see any info about what was updated I installed it just to be safe. It was a little annoying though because I moved the directories around and had to redo that. I could not stand that the AOA and DT products used different directory structures and that all the subsurface products were not close together so I fixed that. Since I'm always moving things around I'm not sure DIM would work for me either.


    Where do you get the better sky dome? Is it something you build out of a sphere, or is it something I can download/buy?

    I have some of Dimension Theory's Skies, like "Skies of Economy" & "Skies of Reality Volume 2", I love those. I also have "Skies of Terra" it's OK but I don't really use it much because I prefer the skies without the landscape like the other products. http://www.daz3d.com/dimensiontheory

  • FistyFisty Posts: 3,416
    edited December 1969

    Yeah, I was going to suggest the "skies" products.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,040
    edited December 1969

    ...tried a couple experiments with Azure Skies (which are skydome presets) Created a sphere primitive, then loaded a UE base light, and applied one of the Azure Skies domes and below is the result.

    Settings I used

    Sphere size: 1,000m segments 24 sided 48, Y axis - 50,000 Cast shadows: "off".
    UE Environment Base Scale = 2 Intensity 150% Occlusion Samples: 128, Occlusion Colour: White.
    Diffuse Map Azure Skies/Beach (applied from Textured folder)
    Render Size 1024 x 768.

    Note: This works with the "sky only" domes. On the ones that include a horizon, the ground scenery tends to pixelate and distort (though this might not be the case using a smaller sphere).

    skydome_test.jpg
    1024 x 768 - 305K
  • DrakenhawkeDrakenhawke Posts: 48
    edited December 1969

    I noticed something strange the other day while rendering. I had a figure that, as part of her attire, wore thigh length boots (Ninja). I was
    using Genesis, mind you, and was having a devil of a time posing them so that the toes would line-up with boot toes. I gave up, instead
    deciding to turn off visibility to both feet. As it rendered, the feet still showed (even turned off). My conclusion after many attempts was the
    human subsurface shader I had used on the model's skin was to blame.

    k003.png
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    k001.png
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  • lface8lface8 Posts: 126
    edited December 1969

    Perhaps instead of turning the feet off, you could instead select the feet and toenails in the surfaces tab and set the opacity to 0? Might work.

  • KinichKinich Posts: 878
    edited December 1969

    drakenhawke said:
    I noticed something strange the other day while rendering. I had a figure that, as part of her attire, wore thigh length boots (Ninja). I was
    using Genesis, mind you, and was having a devil of a time posing them so that the toes would line-up with boot toes. I gave up, instead
    deciding to turn off visibility to both feet. As it rendered, the feet still showed (even turned off). My conclusion after many attempts was the
    human subsurface shader I had used on the model's skin was to blame.

    This issue was discussed some time back, but I know from experience that trying to catch up on a long running thread can be a problem, so if you read from the post referenced belowon you can find some info, work-arounds etc that might help.

    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/22193/P180/#331379

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