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Comments
Not really an unwritten rule, I hate to tell you.
Unfortunately, the only thing in this world anybody is actually entitled to is death. Everything else is just gravy.
Not really an unwritten rule, I hate to tell you.
Unfortunately, the only thing in this world anybody is actually entitled to is death. Everything else is just gravy.
Don't forget taxes, or maybe those are the only two guarantees that people have.
The only two things that are certain in life are Death and Taxes. Commonly attributed to Mark Twain, though he never said that. :)
Me showing up randomly is a close third.
So are you the opposite of the Spanish Inquisition?
I had to take a little time to think about my response before making it.
When I saw the word "lazy" I thought to myself, does this person really understand being a professional artist?
I'm a professional. I have worked in broadcast, film and other segments of the entertainment indstry for decades.
People aren't "lazy." They are either amateurs looking to have fun and take a break from their lives (hobbiests)
OR
They are overworked, underpaid professionals needing to work with falling prices and rising costs.
Let me lay out some facts.
A few years ago I used to get nearly $1000 for a certain kind of commercial art piece. Now that same piece, I had a guy get massive sticker shock when I quoted him that price and he told me he had been paying $100 for the same piece.
10 times less!? There aren't 10 times as many customers. The work still takes as long to make.
We need technology to help us, because no one wants to pay for the craft and the time these things take to make.
This isn't just me going through this. I used to be on the board of our local arts council and artists are reporting that all the time and other councils we are in contact with are reporting the SAME thing!
Do I want artists to go out and learn how to do everything from the ground up? YES!
Is that remotely feasible for most of us? NO!
Many of us have to "run and gun." It's not laziness.
Further, I see a number of Daz/Carrara animations and the work is pretty good.
Could some of these works use a little polish? Sure.
But they do tell a story and that's the point.
If you have the time, I say go ahead, learn the software from the ground up and go for it.
Carara is a very powerful programme and most of us (me included) are hardly getting the full power of the programme going back to C6Pro, much less C8.5Pro.
I wish I had that much time. If you do, please try not to be too judgemental about your fellow artists.
When you have programs that do half the job for you and in some programs third party content that has preposed animations, the user/hobbiest/artist is not free to create from their own skills and ability. it only encourages them to EXPECT most or half of the work to be done for them. In turn, the animation work turns out looking off in the timing, movement etc. It just doesn't look real good and it's noticeable. There's a difference between being judgmental and giving contraceptive criticism. What I'm mentioning is constructive criticism.
So don't tell me I'm judging others, when I'm speaking the truth with solutions and other ways of viewing situations differently. I take offense when anyone accuses me of personally attacking them when I'm just calling it as it is. Where the truth can't be seen, there's no progression.
Telling someone they are being lazy when they use software and third party plugins that does most or half the work for them, is simply speaking the truth. I don't care how you try to spin it or for what reasons those "helpful tools" may be. If it cuts down on time, the artist eventually WILL get used to the idea of taking less time to do it the right and traditional way that most serious animators still do today, therfor they will fall into the LAZY, yes I said "lazy" pattern.
I have been a victim of using those "useful tools" myself in the past. I have also put myself through buying many models from daz that I never created either because it was easier and faster to use those for the animations I wanted to create. There's a sense of real pride when you can create something on your own from scratch and say you created that all on your own from start to finish, even if it takes you a year or 2 to complete through any free time you have.
Ah Fenric, I see rumors of your demise have been greatly over exaggerated
Artistic touch, I think you are looking for this forum http://forums.cgsociety.org/
I was able to do all of that successfully using carrara pro 6 without any problems. I just don't think a whole lot of people knew what a graph editor was in the animation tools to begin with. I didn't know about them and their sole purpose until I learned what they were and how to use them through taking a couple of Maya courses in school back in 2007. It helped improve my animations significantly.
I was able to do all of that successfully using carrara pro 6 without any problems. I just don't think a whole lot of people knew what a graph editor was in the animation tools to begin with. I didn't know about them and their sole purpose until I learned what they were and how to use them through taking a couple of Maya courses in school back in 2007. It helped improve my animations significantly.
So if I understand you, a new tool that makes doing this easier is bad how? To do what the graph editor does now would take hours, and there is no guarantee that your scaling or adjustment would be correct. The fact that you didn't learn about what a graph editor was for until you took a course in Maya lends credence to the statement that the Graph Editor is a tool used in professional 3D applications. It is a tool that professional animators use. How can improving that tool and adding features to it be considered a bad thing, or something aimed only at new users?
Once again Puppeteer wasn't changed, or touched in 8.5. The new animation features were for the graph editor, a tool that you will find in most professional 3D applications.
I never mentioned anything about it being added into 8.5 and I'm well aware it was added into 8.0 pro which I purchased 3 years ago. I was thinking to myself at the time when I saw it, what's the point of all of this when there's already sufficient animation software built into carrara and has been for a long time. It only dawned on me why daz decided to do that, and it was to attract customers who have already been using daz studio and puppeteer for a long time, in hopes to get their feet wet in a new program. That was just one of the strategies to boost sales in the carrara program. One of which wasn't really necessary and it did in fact take more time to work out more bugs as soon as they integrated it. I was a beta tester and saw what was going on. It was painful to see how many bugs they had to work out on a monthly basis.
Not really an unwritten rule, I hate to tell you.
Unfortunately, the only thing in this world anybody is actually entitled to is death. Everything else is just gravy.
Just recently, the Adobe Creative Suite 5.5 upgrade was a paid-for step from Creative Suite 5 (though only some of the applications in the suite were actually updated).
Which of these features are only for Content Users?
New Features for Carrara 6:
Ocean Primitive
Non-Linear Animation
Symmetrical Modeling
DIRECT X Import/Export
OpenGL Improvements
Dynamic Hair
Displacement Modeling
Full DAZ Content Support and Improved Content Browser
Depth of Field Improvements
Shadow Bias
In-Scattering
Landscape Wizard
Euler Angles for Rotations
Render Time Displacement on Terrains
Multiple Selections
Unicode Support
Bridge Tool
Figure Editing
New Features for Carrara 7:
3D Paint
UV Editing/Unfolding
Figure Content LOD Support
Vertex Modeling in Assembly Room
Rendering Optimizations for Transparency
Multi-pass Rendering
Support larger texture sizes in the OGL display
NLA Merge Tracks
COLLADA export
DAZ Studio Content Support Improvements
New Features for Carrara 8:
Multi-threading for Mac and Windows OS
64-bit for Mac and Windows OS
Bullet Physics Library
Improved FBX and COLLADA Data Exchange
Plant & Vegetation Improvements
Render Time Optimizations
Network Render Optimizations
Negative Lights and Photometrics
God Rays and Barn Doors
Normal Maps
Editing of Posed Meshes
Puppeteer for Carrara
Carrara 8.5:
Aside from all the changes to allow the use of TriAx Figures (Which includes Genesis, the Mil Horse 2, Genesis 2 Female, etc.), which was always the primary reason for 8.5 we still have these:
Improved Sequencer, Keyframing and Animation Tools
Improved Viewport Avatars
Improved Bullet Physics
Before 8.5 I count 3 and the first one is fixing the buggiest part of the Carrara 5 code. Note that since TriAx figures are native in Carrara some of the things in Carrara 8.5 designed for TriAx figures, like the new Restore and zero functions, work on all native Carrara content.
So if I understand you, a new tool that makes doing this easier is bad how? To do what the graph editor does now would take hours, and there is no guarantee that your scaling or adjustment would be correct. The fact that you didn't learn about what a graph editor was for until you took a course in Maya lends credence to the statement that the Graph Editor is a tool used in professional 3D applications. It is a tool that professional animators use. How can improving that tool and adding features to it be considered a bad thing, or something aimed only at new users?Absolutely. Man, I love what the team has done with 8.5!
Working as usual, without even attempting to try the new features and tools... I "feel" the difference in this, the Best Carrara Ever.
But then we get into those graph editor changes, the incredible work they've done in isolating many more 'Zeroing' functions - but also adding in 'Memorize' right along side - in the Animation menu, where it's always easy to grab, no matter what tab might be open...
I'm loving it already above and beyond build 204 - which I thought was pretty groovin'.
I'm not exactly sure how anyone could be actually upset that development added the Puppeteer feature in the previous version. It certainly doesn't hurt anybody's workflow or instigate a sense of not wanting to key in subtle animations. It's there for those who feel comfortable in using it, and for others to try in their own endeavors - period. What's wrong with pushing the envelope? Carrara is not exactly sold for, or even built upon the idea of, performing a specific, professional task. It is sold, and seems to be have built upon the idea of, having the ability to automate all manner of various animation functions that previously had to be done by hand. You see this throughout the history of Carrara, as far back as I can tell. It's everywhere. Simple functions to aid in making your animated scene renders have movement and change. It's not built around the idea that every little thing has to be created a certain way - or even by hand bit for bit... no way! Carrara is all about making the process simple, fun, while using easy to find and manipulate tools, primitives, and animation features from the ground up. There's a Shaders wizard!!! :) I've never tried it... but... that just helps to illustrate the fact that Carrara seems to be designed to help people whom know nothing about the field to be able to perform within the field with little to no education in the field! I love it!
Oh... and Carrara 8.5 Pro is definitely a cut above 8.1 Pro...
Great Job! The "real people" involved in building this Best version to date deserve a round of applause! But instead, they get criticized fairly harshly over issues that are not issues. 8.5 was developed from the start to give us (because we voted for it) Native Genesis (Triax) support. We got a whole lot more. Complaining about these genius folks giving us Puppeteer is ridiculous. "They" were not the ones whom made that decision. "They" are the folks responsible for surviving Carrara into a new realm of 64 bit Computer Operating Systems along with wonderful enhancements to the rest of this magnificent software. How could anyone choose to broadcast ill, horrible vibes into the minds of these incredibly giving, gifted and talented software creators? It baffles me. In high school such behavior gets you a direct ticket to the principal's office. At least it used to back in the 80's.
I am one, big fan of the software development staff at DAZ 3D. They prove to strive, very hard, at crossing items off the bug reports list. They strive to bring in what is needed... what is asked for. I wish that people could remember that it's real people whom make this stuff happen. And when they do, they're answering us, the people who ask. If you refuse to try their incredible new piece, fine. But please don't try to make them feel bad for answering their call of duty.
Love ya DAZ 3D... really do!
Not trying to make an arguement, but the price is steep for my personal workflow, as improved bullet is the only usable improvement for me.
Which of these features work for me? I don't use pre-made content
New Features for Carrara 6:
Ocean Primitive- sorta, I prefer a converted terrain
Non-Linear Animation - never used
Symmetrical Modeling - great addition
DIRECT X Import/Export - no need in my workflow
OpenGL Improvements - did not notice the improvement
Dynamic Hair - great addition
Displacement Modeling - great addition
Full DAZ Content Support and Improved Content Browser - no need in my workflow
Depth of Field Improvements - I prefer the Ray Dream way (with green focus X and red blur X)
Shadow Bias- never used
In-Scattering - great addition
Landscape Wizard - no need in my workflow
Euler Angles for Rotations - great addition
Render Time Displacement on Terrains
Multiple Selections - great addition
Unicode Support - no need in my workflow
Bridge Tool - great addition
Figure Editing - no need in my workflow
New Features for Carrara 7:
3D Paint - great addition
UV Editing/Unfolding - Old uv editor was less confusing
Figure Content LOD Support - - no need in my workflow
Vertex Modeling in Assembly Room - great addition
Rendering Optimizations for Transparency - can't tell the difference
Multi-pass Rendering - - no need in my workflow
Support larger texture sizes in the OGL display - no comment
NLA Merge Tracks - no need in my workflow
COLLADA export - no need in my workflow
DAZ Studio Content Support Improvements - no need in my workflow
New Features for Carrara 8:
Multi-threading for Mac and Windows OS
64-bit for Mac and Windows OS - no comment, not 64 bit yet
Bullet Physics Library - great addition
Improved FBX and COLLADA Data Exchange - no need in my workflow
Plant & Vegetation Improvements - great addition
Render Time Optimizations - great addition
Network Render Optimizations - no comment
Negative Lights and Photometrics - - no need in my workflow
God Rays and Barn Doors - could never get good god rays, barn doors...no use I can find for this feature
Normal Maps - great addition
Editing of Posed Meshes - no need in my workflow
Puppeteer for Carrara - no need in my workflow
Carrara 8.5:
Aside from all the changes to allow the use of TriAx Figures (Which includes Genesis, the Mil Horse 2, Genesis 2 Female, etc.), which was always the primary reason for 8.5 we still have these:
Improved Sequencer, Keyframing and Animation Tools - no need in my workflow
Improved Viewport Avatars - no need in my workflow
Improved Bullet Physics - may be a great addition never tried 8.5
When you have programs that do half the job for you and in some programs third party content that has preposed animations, the user/hobbiest/artist is not free to create from their own skills and ability. it only encourages them to EXPECT most or half of the work to be done for them. In turn, the animation work turns out looking off in the timing, movement etc. It just doesn't look real good and it's noticeable. There's a difference between being judgmental and giving contraceptive criticism. What I'm mentioning is constructive criticism.
So don't tell me I'm judging others, when I'm speaking the truth with solutions and other ways of viewing situations differently. I take offense when anyone accuses me of personally attacking them when I'm just calling it as it is. Where the truth can't be seen, there's no progression.
Telling someone they are being lazy when they use software and third party plugins that does most or half the work for them, is simply speaking the truth. I don't care how you try to spin it or for what reasons those "helpful tools" may be. If it cuts down on time, the artist eventually WILL get used to the idea of taking less time to do it the right and traditional way that most serious animators still do today, therfor they will fall into the LAZY, yes I said "lazy" pattern.
I have been a victim of using those "useful tools" myself in the past. I have also put myself through buying many models from daz that I never created either because it was easier and faster to use those for the animations I wanted to create. There's a sense of real pride when you can create something on your own from scratch and say you created that all on your own from start to finish, even if it takes you a year or 2 to complete through any free time you have.
The whole concept of computer generated imagery is to make the computer do half the work. Look at "tweeners," in the old days, the studio animation department had the primary animators illustrate the major figure changes or actions, and the apprentice animators would do the in-between illustrations (which in it's own way could be considered lazy for the primary animator). Now, the computer extrapolates what happens in-between the changes in the figure. Not that there isn't artistry involved, but your adherence to "the traditional" methods is going to leave you in the dust. New tools and methods emerge every day. A tool victimizes no one. The wielder of the tool is the victimizer. If the one wielding the tool is yourself, then you have no one else to blame.
Besides, I fail to see how Puppeteer is going to make anyone lazy. It's only one more method to manipulate the figure. It has no bearing on the timeline. That is the animators job. Use Puppeteer to pose the figure, scrub along the timeline to where you want your next keyframe and use Puppeteer to repose the figure. The computer extrapolates what happens between the keyframes. If you've timed your keyframes correctly, the motion will seem natural. Carrara has direct manipulation of the keyframes and tweeners, plus the graph editor. DAZ Studio (the last I knew) did not. It would seem to me that Puppeteer would be ideally suited to work with Carrara.
But that's the point. What you love in that list, others may comment that they have no need for it, and the things that you don't care about others do. DAZ can't please everyone, and they do have a strong content revenue stream. The C8.0 build had very little content specific updates- comparatively speaking. This one does have a lot of content specific updates. Now that Genesis support and DSON and whatever, has been added, hopefully C9 will be mostly about refining and adding to Carrara's myriad other features. Oh, and bug fixes for C8.5 ;-)
Not only did DAZ want the content updates, but judging from all the threads here over the last several months, so did a great many users.
Well, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree.
You are clearly judging others.
I'm calling THAT as I see it.
I don't spin a damn thing.
I'm out there on the front lines trying to help artists make it from point A to B.
I have artists making 1/10th what they did a few years ago.
I have artists losing everything,
so excuse me for supporting whatever makes the lives of the people in my community better.
Most of us have pride in being able to pay our rent.
If the tools are of no use to you, please either disable them or just don't use them.
That's what I do.
The topic of Carrara's documentation rings a bell with me ... ;-P
After some discussion here in the Forum that could be described as "spirited" :coolsmirk: ,
about a month ago I submitted a Help Request asking if Carrara 8.5 would have updated, comprehensive documentation (since V.8 never did after three years of "Coming Shortly!"). In both the Forum and the Help Section, I was told repeatedly that, yes, the 8.5 version would have updated documentation.
Yesterday, I got my final answer, pointing to the items you mention. I actually did think it was a joke. At first. :gulp:
Everything is labelled as "Draft" so maybe they plan on adding some actual documentation. But the real story I think is here in the "Documentation Center":
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/artzone/pub/software/carrara/start
"Carrara 8: TBD"
(It said "Coming Shortly" for several years before, not sure if that's progress ...)
yeah it's great all right - the Messiah people took that approach:
"Learn from the other forum members." And where are all
those "dare to share" buyers now? Gone like a bat out of hell.
And the "regular forum members" are living in their own little
dream world.
Take a look at how dead it is, even though PMG messiah
just came out with a new version:
http://setuptab.com/
This is what happens when a company does not provide
an updated manual for years and years, and does not
communicate with or listen to their customers.
Yup.
The topic of Carrara's documentation rings a bell with me ... ;-P
After some discussion here in the Forum that could be described as "spirited" :coolsmirk: ,
about a month ago I submitted a Help Request asking if Carrara 8.5 would have updated, comprehensive documentation (since V.8 never did after three years of "Coming Shortly!"). In both the Forum and the Help Section, I was told repeatedly that, yes, the 8.5 version would have updated documentation.
Yesterday, I got my final answer, pointing to the items you mention. I actually did think it was a joke. At first. :gulp:
Everything is labelled as "Draft" so maybe they plan on adding some actual documentation. But the real story I think is here in the "Documentation Center":
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/artzone/pub/software/carrara/start
"Carrara 8: TBD"
(It said "Coming Shortly" for several years before, not sure if that's progress ...)
I don't know what they have to do to get people to see this. It's stickied at the top of the page:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/27874/
Maybe they need a big animation and an audio file that yells, "look at me!"
For those folks who rarely or never use content or animations there is not a real lot for you in 8.5 . And I myself have not been a big user of content before and thought 8.5 was not for me and why the heck was DAZ spending so much of their energies on the whole content delivery and use in C 8.5?
But If you think about it what does DAZ have that others (3d apps) don't including that open source growing 3d app starting with a B. Content. And it would be ridiculous if DAZ's own apps could not use that content easily. In fact, This can be and is its only natural advantage over all other 3d apps. Content use.
So it really was important for DAZ to focus on content use in Carrara. In fact , it may ensure it survivability in the crazy 3d application world. Carrara can now use the vast content library DAZ has and will have in the future. Beside bringing cash to DAZ It is being focused on becoming "the" content use 3d app.
But all the noncontent users are going ---that sucks for us ! but in the long run it will not. Once DAZ has completed the pipeline from content library to Carrara as it has so focused in 8.5 --it can start focusing on building Carrara up to better compete in its core capabilites. If they can manage to add some needed improvements in cloth, liquids, atmospheres , etc in future versions they have and we have a chance to see more Carrara's versions in the years ahead.
So sure , I was not so happy with all the content stuff but ---- I now believe it was actually important to get done before they worked on the core things. I hope version 9 is the beginning of some core items that need a little love.
Does not increased stability, compatibility and performance count as an advancement that benefits all?
Also wrt to improvements made to accommodate triax-weight map, dynamic subdivision and Genesis comparability, these are also to the benefit of content creators. Even ones who start from scratch. If you dont know how to take advantage of it today, then its an opportunity.
3D media development, whether a "Pro" maya-master, max wizard or a milkshape molder extraordinaire all must recognize that while the fundamentals remain the same, the industry's standards and expectations has advanced alot in the past 5 years. The way I see it, 2D renders will be a post thought to real time rendering power and portability offered by WebGL and Android..
shhh...here is a hint a of what will make real time 3d presentation ubiquitous: http://1-ogg.com
We see it, alright. Those ARE the items that FractalDimensia was describing as a joke.
Sure increased stability helps everyone and performance ....just saying overall the focus was surely on content delivery and animation enhancements. Just like if you did not own vic 5 or mike 5 ---this was a real easy upgrade to buy if you use or plan to start using content. But that also did not sit as a positive for non-content users. It was bonus they do not use.
But hopefully Daz can at least put out some possible intentions for things for ver 9 so the non-content folks do not become discontented with the software and move away as it were ......we need as many folks as possible to support Carrara. And one positive thing I seem to notice is a lot of new posters in this release. Now unfortunatly a lot of them had issues with the store, prices, general upgrade issues....but was good to hear from a lot of new posters . Smiles.
We see it, alright. Those ARE the items that FractalDimensia was describing as a joke.
Considering your past complaints, I would think that any movement on documentation would be welcome. Instead you link to the old, pretty much defunct AZ Wiki as some big talking point because they changed a status on C8.0 manual status.
Clearly work is being done, and DAZ is showing some movement in the right direction. you provide a pretty much meaningless link, while the whole time there's a thread stickied at the top of the forum with a more current link and also information from the very person working on providing the documentation. You claim to see it, and yet you can't even acknowledge it?
Considering your past complaints, I would think that any movement on documentation would be welcome. Instead you link to the old, pretty much defunct AZ Wiki as some big talking point because they changed a status on C8.0 manual status.
Clearly work is being done, and DAZ is showing some movement in the right direction. you provide a pretty much meaningless link, while the whole time there's a thread stickied at the top of the forum with a more current link and also information from the very person working on providing the documentation. You claim to see it, and yet you can't even acknowledge it?
Please, calm down. The link they posted to the C8: TBD is included in the link you posted of the current documentation. The link you call meaningless is included by Daz_jared in the stickied thread as being meaningful. Good heavens. You are all talking at cross-purposes here.
After four years, information on two new features isn't quite earth-shattering news. The followthrough will be what's important. How many times has new documentation been started — three, now? Forgive some skepticism, particularly when past efforts are marked TBD and included as current.
Considering your past complaints, I would think that any movement on documentation would be welcome. Instead you link to the old, pretty much defunct AZ Wiki as some big talking point because they changed a status on C8.0 manual status.
Clearly work is being done, and DAZ is showing some movement in the right direction. you provide a pretty much meaningless link, while the whole time there's a thread stickied at the top of the forum with a more current link and also information from the very person working on providing the documentation. You claim to see it, and yet you can't even acknowledge it?
Please, calm down. The link they posted to the C8: TBD is included in the link you posted of the current documentation. The link you call meaningless is included by Daz_jared in the stickied thread as being meaningful. Good heavens. You are all talking at cross-purposes here.
After four years, information on two new features isn't quite earth-shattering news. The followthrough will be what's important. How many times has new documentation been started — three, now? Forgive some skepticism, particularly when past efforts are marked TBD and included as current.
Actually, I don't think I need to calm down as I'm not particularly upset. Thanks for the concern though.
My point remains. I would hardly call the documentation on the Graph Editor- A non-content upgrade BTW, that DAZ_jared showed off a couple weeks ago) as useless screen shots. It takes time, and as I have said, aside from the C8 updates, 90% of the manual is still valid. Why re-write the whole thing? Add the information about the updated features. If there were interface and functional changes to the VM, then re-write that section, but if not, why worry about it?
Contraceptive criticism?
Considering your past complaints, I would think that any movement on documentation would be welcome. Instead you link to the old, pretty much defunct AZ Wiki as some big talking point because they changed a status on C8.0 manual status.
Clearly work is being done, and DAZ is showing some movement in the right direction. you provide a pretty much meaningless link, while the whole time there's a thread stickied at the top of the forum with a more current link and also information from the very person working on providing the documentation. You claim to see it, and yet you can't even acknowledge it?
Please, calm down. The link they posted to the C8: TBD is included in the link you posted of the current documentation. The link you call meaningless is included by Daz_jared in the stickied thread as being meaningful. Good heavens. You are all talking at cross-purposes here.
After four years, information on two new features isn't quite earth-shattering news. The followthrough will be what's important. How many times has new documentation been started — three, now? Forgive some skepticism, particularly when past efforts are marked TBD and included as current.
Exactly. Four years ...