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I don't think insulting people by calling them lazy is constructive criticism.
I have to laugh, remembering my nephew when he was little. He thought it was perfectly fine to insult people, as long as he added "and I mean that in the nicest way" at the end. His dad had to explain to him that wasn't ok and didn't make it less of an insult. Neither does saying you're just "speaking the truth".
And here I thought it was all about creating art and THAT was what gave you that sense of pride.. What difference does it make if people use tool A that does more work than tool B? If you want to not use tools, just don't use them...
I guess people should go back to doing all mechanical designs on paper instead of using CAD programs and add-ons that calculate things being overlapping or not strong enough. Heck, why not go back to using rocks instead of hammers or electric drills.
Come to think of it, why should ANYONE use a COMPUTER that does all sorts of things FOR you, when you can just draw and do calculations the old fashioned way with pen and pencil?
I think people should use the tools THEY find helpful to them to get the results they want.
May I inquire as to what tools have been added to the modeler since version 6?
I know tools have been copied over to the assemble room, but that is not adding tools, that is just copy/move tools. (and if I remember correctly, the main reason for that was for content)
Spooky didn't mention it as one of the benefits of 8.5, but after playing with it for a couple of hours I can see that it's a lot more stable and much quicker to respond. I can load scenes faster, load objects faster, the texture room gives no hesitation as I'm loading complex shaders, and it's rendering faster. Surely this should also count as an improvement for anyone.
I'm a content user, true, and I don't build every scene I render from scratch starting with a cube primitive and ending with a crowd of thousands of elves running through a forest where every leaf has it's own displacement mapping and translucency, so I guess I'm not a 'purist', but as the content improvements with this release probably won't be much use to me personally (I'm 99% certain I'll play with Genesis but go right back to using V4/M4) that wasn't the big selling point for me.
The price was steep, but it was just low enough to nudge me into purchasing. That just means DAZ figured out my buying habits as a customer well enough to price the upgrade just right for my market segment, and I can't fault them for that, even if I do wish it had been less costly (who doesn't?).
This release won't be for everyone though, and I can certainly understand if some don't go for it. Doesn't make them bad people or backwards curmudgeons just because they didn't upgrade. On the other hand, just because I did upgrade doesn't make me a lickspittle Daz water-carrier either. We're all individuals here, and we act in our own interest, for our own reasons.
I do think that since this is a .5 release, that when Carrara 9 comes around they should allow upgrade discounts for both Carrara 8 owners as well as 8.5 owners. Otherwise, they should have just gone ahead and called this Carrara 9, IMO, and those Carrara 8 users who didn't opt to upgrade to 8.5 shouldn't be penalized.
Also I saw a lot of speculation about how awesome each upgrade would have been if only Eovia was still in charge. How about the far more likely scenario that if Daz hadn't acquired Carrara, that Eovia would have simply let a product they didn't consider profitable enough to keep simply die, and Carrara 5 would have been the last version, period? Instead Carrara is still alive and still being developed, even if the old guard purists have to deal with those yucky content users like me who are obviously genetically inferior in every way :)
>>May I inquire as to what tools have been added to the modeler since version 6? << Added comparability same level of capability or better to all the model & rig tools.</p>
" Multiple UV set Support, TriAx™ and Weight mapped Figures, Legacy Parametric Figures, and DSON presets such as - lights, poses, character, shaping, scenes, shaders, and more!"
While some mesh and primitive manipulation remain fundamental, behind the scenes the compatibility of all these modeling tools is affected to support the GEOMETRY & Rig improvements in UV and Weighting technology.
In the end its what you end up showing for your work which is more important than how you got there. I certainly admire guys like Mcguiver who makes his own stuff and it looks pretty amazing. I mean that takes skill and artistry. But one can still make great art by using content. Lets face the real facts -----it takes a lot of time modeling and rigging a character as good as vicky is --how many folks really have the time and expertise to even do that?
I wish I could make everything myself ---but rl jobs and stuff (skills) just does not make it possible . So I have myself been warming up more and more to using content (especially characters ) in the future. I have this crazy dream of making some cool animated short someday----- time is my biggest enemy ---so yep I have to say content might be the only way for me at least right now. And sure I will have a lot things modeled myself but characters probably ain't in the cards for me .
So ----upgrading to 8.5 seemed like a good thing for me and I do like supporting DAZ as much as possible despite sometimes they make my head spin and in the end Carrara is just too good --too fun to let die. We have DAZ and they have IMHO done a decent job with Carrara ------of course version 9 to me seems like it really has to have a few items that just make it so good everyone wants to upgrade and I agree I would like DAZ to allow 8.0 and 8.5 to upgrade to 9 same price.
So that is not imported content based?
Are you stating that I can now, for simple example, build a model, and am able to create 2 separate UV maps for that model, and that can then be exported, to say, a game engine?
I cannot give a list of reasons, I am just dubious about the release.
The last beta release for approx 4 months ago. Why was there not a RC(release candidate) before final release, so any bugs could be flagged / fixed?
There are known issues, but what are they? (known issues mentioned, but not named by DAZ_Spooky:- http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/27826/P260)
Will there be a bug_fix release for known issues/bugs for 8.5? or will we see the merry_go_round again, and have bug fixes for 8.5 going into C9, with a need to again make a paid upgrade for bug fixes?
I cannot give a list of reasons, I am just dubious about the release.
The last beta release for approx 4 months ago. Why was there not a RC(release candidate) before final release, so any bugs could be flagged / fixed?
There are known issues, but what are they? (known issues mentioned, but not named by DAZ_Spooky:- http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/27826/P260)
Will there be a bug_fix release for known issues/bugs for 8.5? or will we see the merry_go_round again, and have bug fixes for 8.5 going into C9, with a need to again make a paid upgrade for bug fixes?
Known issues are in the Readme. Yes, there will be fixes for them.
As for why not another Public release before the actual release? That is a marketing decision,based on numerous reasons, but the biggest reason was there was a very nasty crash bug that pushed us to the point where we could do a Public Beta or release on time. the decision was made to release on time.
May I inquire as to what tools have been added to the modeler since version 6?
I know tools have been copied over to the assemble room, but that is not adding tools, that is just copy/move tools. (and if I remember correctly, the main reason for that was for content)
You don't want to count Vertex Modeling in Assembly Room, OK, most people do.
UV Editing/Unfolding
Plant & Vegetation Improvements
Editing of Posed Meshes
I got off the Carrara merry-go-round with version 7. DAZ took far too long creating a stable 64 bit version of version 8 to keep my interest. I will look from the sidelines as version 9 is prepared and see if I want to jump back on. Actually, I am far more interested in a Bryce 8 (or even 7.5)
Can we see the readme for Carrara 8.5 without buying the product, where is it?
So that is not imported content based?
Are you stating that I can now, for simple example, build a model, and am able to create 2 separate UV maps for that model, and that can then be exported, to say, a game engine?
Sure- why not? Kind of how I converted V6 for game use in "Repstar's Paparazzi Shake" game.
On the topic of whether or not using content ruins the purity of the medium I would just like to add that the invention of the camera changed the artistic world. Prior to the camera a lot of emphasis was put on obtaining realism through painting, then all of a sudden we have this device that does that for you. Not only did the medium of painting evolve, but photography emerged as a legitimate artistic medium.
Now we have the advent of the digital world. Digital photography helps push the limits of what is possible. 3D has emerged as an artistic medium. To me using pre-made content is comparable to using real world models, clothing, props etc. in a photo shoot. Just because you point your camera at something and click a button doesn't make the photo art. In the same vein just because you load a figure, pose it and hit render doesn't make that render art.
Art is all about expression, composition, and evoking an emotion. I don't care what tools an artist uses, or what medium he or she works in as long as they are using it to express themselves.
I have to admit, all this talk about Carrara has made me very interested in taking a look at it. I've only really dabbled in animation on a small level in applications such as 3D Studio Max and, of course, Daz Studio and Poser but I'd love to take it a bit further.
However, one thing that was brought up was this insistence that using tools to make a job easier is somehow 'laziness' or 'cheating' and I'd just like to clear up this little misconception. I make and texture 3D models. I have an older version of 3D Studio Max which doesn't have a lot of the features of the latest and greatest versions used by the big production houses. As a result, my skills are a lot more 'hands-on' than some who are paid a lot more than me to do this sort of work with far superior tools. Does this mean I can get better results? Well... no.
As any smart person understands, the tool is just that -- a means to an end. The artist is the most important part behind any tool, regardless of how much 'easier' it's made. There are people who can use seemingly weak tools to create powerful works of art, and others still who can use powerful tools to create weak pieces of art. The end result should be all that matters, not how you got there.
Most large production houses use shortcuts. In the gaming industry, we use shortcuts all the time from borrowing other pieces of code such as pre-made game engines to re-working old gaming assets into new products. It's important to have this perspective when looking at 3D tools as well. Carrara might make animation easier in some areas, but isn't that a good thing? The less time I spend setting it up, the more time I have to fine-tune the finished result.
Results should always be the focus, not the methods.
Contraceptive criticism?
I think he meant constructive criticism. LOL! I don't think Lifestyles and Trojan has anything to do with this discussion.
I could go into a long discussion concerning those, but will leave it (for now) as believing those are updates rather than additions.
Sure- why not? Kind of how I converted V6 for game use in "Repstar's Paparazzi Shake" game.
That is converting rather then creating. I was asking if you could create 2 separate UVs on a model created in Carrara.
It is like the now(in 8.5) support for "Triax weight maps". Yes Carrara supports them, but you cannot create them.
I have no problem at all with with those who prefer/like to use pre-created content. As long as they are having fun/enjoyment, I think its excellent.
With the latest release of carrara, it is a great upgrade for those who like to use DAZ characters, and again, I have no problem with that.
My own personal preference is to create models/content. I have been asked at times as to why I make certain models, when I could (at times) download a similar model for free(or for a few cents). My reason is that it is the process of creating the model/content that I enjoy, not actually using the model/content. Some think me insane, but at least I am happy LOL.
I have no problem at all with with those who prefer/like to use pre-created content. As long as they are having fun/enjoyment, I think its excellent.
With the latest release of carrara, it is a great upgrade for those who like to use DAZ characters, and again, I have no problem with that.
My own personal preference is to create models/content. I have been asked at times as to why I make certain models, when I could (at times) download a similar model for free(or for a few cents). My reason is that it is the process of creating the model/content that I enjoy, not actually using the model/content. Some think me insane, but at least I am happy LOL.
If you enjoy the creative process that comes from building your models from scratch that is awesome. I would imagine that the devotion and enjoyment you give/get from this process shows up in your final works. Enjoyment and expression is what art should be about.
This is a really good point. The art world looked down on photography for decades because it valued individual authenticity and craft above reproduction but by the 1960's when the Pop artists dominated the art world the whole idea of individual craft and expertise became very old fashioned and still is. Photography is very much an artistic medium just as 3D modelling in DAZ can be depending on what's being created. Contemporary artists buy in ready made materials all the time so using content in DAZ is no different to Jeff Koons using art students to paint his pictures or Damien Hirst using lab technicians to pickle his sharks.
I used DAZ to create a book and a film for my final show at Chelsea College of Art & Design in London in June and received a first class honours degree. I also got accepted on a Masters degree course in August on the basis of portfolio much of it created using DAZ so the idea that DAZ isn't capable of producing professional work is not true. It's possible to create professional work with a box camera depending on the idea. We're not living in the Victorian era so we no longer need to preserve their artistic values over 100 years later.
Sure- why not? Kind of how I converted V6 for game use in "Repstar's Paparazzi Shake" game.
That is converting rather then creating. I was asking if you could create 2 separate UVs on a model created in Carrara.
It is like the now(in 8.5) support for "Triax weight maps". Yes Carrara supports them, but you cannot create them.
Just learned this in another thread. Wonders how the engine could read Triax but not write it - must have been a UI limitation.
Exactly.
It's true that learning to do things "the hard way" can help someone understand the process, how tools work, where and how they can be implemented, and so on, but that only goes so far.
In the last 25 years I have never worked in a production environment -- 2D or 3D -- where a stable, time-saving tool wasn't jumped on. In production, a decent tool that saves time and makes the job easier can mean the difference between profit and loss, or the difference between going home in time for supper and never seeing the sun.
There are many kinds of artists; someone calling a production artist "lazy" because they want to save time and money on the job is certainly exercising their right to an opinion, but a production artist has to wonder about someone who is proud of wasting time and energy on a job just to be able to brag that they did it, "the hard way."
-- Walt Sterdan
There should be a free upgrade to 8.5 without the Pro bundles.... I feel like DAZ is forcing me to buy the Pro bundles a 2nd time. I really don't understand being charged for these half grade updates.... same thing is happening with Anime Studio and I'm not buying that either. If I lose my upgrade path in these software later on ... so be it.. I'll just use the older versions... there is still plenty for me to learn with them.
Yes. Or at least a much lower cost upgrade without the content bundles. DAZ has apparently replaced Carrara's documentation with bundled content which some of us don't want, in an effort to sell more Genesis content. Still, Carrara 8.1, M4, V4, & related ... not a bad mix.
"The US Naval Academy announced that it was discontinuing its course on celestial navigation, considered to be one of its more demanding courses, from the formal curriculum in the spring of 1998 stating that a sextant is accurate to a three-mile (5 km) radius, while a satellite-linked computer can pinpoint a ship within 60 feet (18 m). Presently, midshipmen continue to learn to use the sextant, but instead of performing a tedious 22-step mathematical calculation to plot a ship's course, midshipmen feed the raw data into a computer."
I think even Admiral Nelson would approve. :smirk:
I remember my slide rule in engineering school... used to walk around campus with it strapped in a leather case on my belt.
Hmm, I would rather they still taught it myself, as I can't help thinking 'what happens if in a time of war the enemy is able to knock out the satellites?'
But who ever said government policies made sense, eh? I was surprised recently during a visit with my brother in law, who has been an officer for years (while I'm not military, got a lot of close family that is) when I had to teach him basic firearm handling (we were doing a fun family outing to a local gun range). He served in a medical position, but still I was shocked that a military officer in the current US forces would not have received basic training in weaponry, and he admitted to me he was surprised at how different the military actually was as opposed to what he was expecting before he signed up - said that there was far more training and courses on sexual harassment seminars and cultural sensitivity then there was on tactics, strategy, and even basic weapon handling.
Sorry for drifting off topic, just made me think. In digital art, when nobody's life is on the line :) I do agree with the basic point that simpler/faster/easier and most important 'faster' is more important then being able to write a doctorate paper on the curvature of light and how it will affect a BRDF shader for realistic specular effect ;) It ain't cheating if it gives faster and more improved workflow output, right? Or, maybe said another way: if you ain't 'cheatin', you ain't doing it right :)
I'm loyal to Daz and my Carrara 8.0 and now 8.5 ownership because when I got started in Game Development and 3D modeling in early 2012 the tools helped me a lot. At the time I did not know Blender that well. Carrara was easy to learn and I rigged my first game characters with it. I use Blender a lot now but have much use for Daz/Carrara tools as well. Plus I enjoy this community. yall so nice(-:
When I was wanting to paint right on the model the tech support at Daz helped me and even steered me toward another low cost product that they don;t own called Blacksmith 3D. I eneded up painting with Daz/Carra tools and blacksmith. I thought that was nice of them.
Robert
It isn't the tools you use, it's the end results that matter. I have seen people get great animations with pretty much any tool out there, including basic programming and flood fills. I've seen people come up with crappy animations using renderman and Vue. Everyone's animations begin rough. Better a poorly timed animation with honest critique than no animation and no critique. That is how new animators learn to be good animators.
For myself, content makes a good starting point. I no longer feel it necessary to build for myself things that other people have already made. I could spend a year making a single character, or I could license one from Daz and begin making a picture today. At some point the question becomes, which would I rather spend my time doing? Yet, purchasing content as a starting point does not mean that animators should use said content as their end point. Modify it, change it, make it right for what your working on. The same characters over and over are boring. But that's me. If you want to make something for yourself, go right ahead. If you want to use prebought content, go ahead. Just keep forging ahead with your artwork.
If your happy with an early version of Carrara and don't feel the new release is worth the money they are asking? Then by all means stick with what you like. You can make wonderful animations and pictures using all the previous versions of Carrara. Enjoy yourself, make pretty pictures, and share them with us in the forums. For those who are happy with the update and the price, have fun and enjoy yourselves. Nothing he is choosing to do should detract from your enjoyment of Carrara 8.5... and I really don't think the people who don't feel it's worth the price, nor the people who do feel it's worth the price, will convince the other side... because the tools you use are not the important thing.
Boojum the brown bunny