HD Character wishlist...
SnowPheonix
Posts: 896
Well, for starters as with all new HD characters, we need the very primal basics for example with eye movements, g2m hands although I seem to be getting buy with using my g2f poses on g2m. Love the HD characters.. amazing.
Need some HD crafted characters... maybe you can go digitize Miley and she can twerk with you. Must be a lot of models that would LOVE to be digitized/immortalized, just need to go to Hollywood... What would you like to see?
Also... a shout out to Dimension Theory and Age of Armor... I know you guys are out there somewhere.. brilliant jobs on the advanced spotlight.
http://www.daz3d.com/lighting/real-light-hdr-gels-bulbs
http://www.daz3d.com/lighting/advanced-spotlight
Now that I've figured out how to use them, it is the best lighting package so long as I remember to save often.. the results are worth it. Brilliant!
Would love to see more HDR work.
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Comments
I'm currently experimenting with Victoria 6 HD. I'd like to see some Black African or Hispanic characters in HD, since I'm into dark and sultry ladies
I agree with you Alex but in the meantime, don't forget we still have plenty of other characters that can be converted to take advantage of that HD Mesh that make your characters look amazing! You have to keep in mind that HD is a revolution... Quality takes time and patience and a willingness to pay... We just gotta keep reminding them that there is a market for it...
In the meantime, this is a good HD mesh from a converted v4 skin... what do you think?
I wish more texture makers would follow Zev0's example and take advantage of DS's Layered Image Editor. Give us a nice clean base with details added using LIE. I doubt this will happen though as Poser doesn't have a LIE equivalent, it would have to be done manually either in the Material Room or an external image editor program like GIMP.
I agree with you Alex but in the meantime, don't forget we still have plenty of other characters that can be converted to take advantage of that HD Mesh that make your characters look amazing! You have to keep in mind that HD is a revolution... Quality takes time and patience and a willingness to pay... We just gotta keep reminding them that there is a market for it...
In the meantime, this is a good HD mesh from a converted v4 skin... what do you think?
She is well sultry, without a doubt. How do you convert earlier characters? I have about a dozen G2F characters. Can I merge their skin textures with the Victoria HD skin? Please bear in mind that I'm a relative newbie.
It would be nice if that Layered material didn't slow the render down to a absolute crawl and crash my program whenever I try to use them. I have to admit that if it worked better in DAZ then I would agree with you but everytime I try to add layered effects such as tattoos, my system farts or the render time turns from minutes to hours...
I find it best to have different characters with options like Tattoos or religious markings to be incorporated into the original textures... That is why character makers bother to name the characters... otherwise they would just sell 'brownskin #4' and assume somebody like you is doing to spend your time doing post work... I'll keep buying multiple characters.:)
She is well sultry, without a doubt. How do you convert earlier characters? I have about a dozen G2F characters. Can I merge their skin textures with the Victoria HD skin? Please bear in mind that I'm a relative newbie.
The trick is to use the 'mat' (essentially the skin) of the character but not the morph. Yes, you can use any previous character you own on the HD Mesh. Keep in mind that the mesh has to do with the shaping of the character. An HD Mesh means the character has more bends and folds where they should be so the shape of your characters looks like a real human form... what skin you put on that shape is up to you.
Still... HD skin would be a plus but we can make do with what we have for now :)
I'd like to understand what's happening when HD is applied. Looks like the stuff of normal or displacement mapping in the background maybe? How is it that a shape morph can be created with a higher res mesh for use on a lower? I thought number of vertices had to match between morph figure and target. Anyway, just curious.
While the actual methods are guarded in secrecy, the basic gist is that you're morphing a subdivided version of the mesh. In the case of the HD figures, it's using 3 levels of subdivision and then morphing on that level. This is a technique which can only be applied to TriAx figures like Genesis and Genesis 2, so I wouldn't expect a HD Victoria 4 any time soon.
Note that HD figures can do this as well as using displacement and normal maps, so the level of detail can be quite astonishing.
I've postulated that what thew HD is, in essence, is a "supersuit" type fitting of a subdivided model OVER the original lower-poly mesh which conforms like clothing to the original. The original mesh is made invisible through some sort of swapping and what you are left with is a VERY high poly model with the same UV maps and skeletal system, and bends.
No confirmation on that, though.
HD is basically just what HoF said...morphs to the subdivided mesh. It's the getting them back into DS and having them work without treating it as a new mesh that's the secret...as far as I can tell.
The problem with that idea in my understanding is that you would end up with each part of the model not working the parts around it as a whole... I think HD is starting from the ground up and after watch how the morphs work, I'm more convinced its true to its advertising and brilliant. In my humble opinion, the only thing needed now are more high resolution character mats and very talented people taking the time to do a new "Elite" character.
Unfortunately, until I can rally some support to purchase it, I seriously doubt well see any real looking character mats from Daz.
I have found some great new deals I'm enjoying like "Persian beauty" :)
The materials supplied with the HD morph packs have astonishing levels of detail, so they're well worth a purchase if you're looking for some quality figures. The Anna texture for V6 has become a firm favourite of mine already. She's labelled as V6 Elite in the materials list.
The materials supplied with the HD morph packs have astonishing levels of detail, so they're well worth a purchase if you're looking for some quality figures. The Anna texture for V6 has become a firm favourite of mine already. She's labelled as V6 Elite in the materials list.
Are you sure you're not thinking of another site? I did a search and I couldn't find any character named Anna V6. Thanks if you have a link.
The Anna texture is coming with the V6 HD add-on.
http://www.daz3d.com/victoria-6-hd-add-on
The problem with that idea in my understanding is that you would end up with each part of the model not working the parts around it as a whole... I think HD is starting from the ground up and after watch how the morphs work, I'm more convinced its true to its advertising and brilliant.
I am not quite sure what you mean by that. Would you elucidate?
Oh.. I found that to be interesting that they specifically say in the marketing material, "Fine details that don't rely on image maps".
See, I want fine details in the mesh AND in the image maps.
It's important to not confuse texture resolution with detail though. Some 'high res' textures I've found on other sites are airbrushed rubbish which actually loses much of that detail in favour of smoothing everything out. They match the resolution of those found here, but that's where the similarities end. The HD Anna texture is one which holds up nicely in close-ups as well as from afar.
It's well worth a look if you want more detail in your renders.
It's important to not confuse texture resolution with detail though. Some 'high res' textures I've found on other sites are airbrushed rubbish which actually loses much of that detail in favour of smoothing everything out. They match the resolution of those found here, but that's where the similarities end. The HD Anna texture is one which holds up nicely in close-ups as well as from afar.
It's well worth a look if you want more detail in your renders.
I couldn't agree with you more about the morphs and its worth buying the HD morphs simply for that added detail you get from the shape of the body being accurately reflected, including wrinkles or something as common as the crease of the philtrum.
When it comes to textures, we have the opposite perspective.
We're talking about Anna that comes with V6 HD so I thought I'd do a test render next to other characters and for me personally, I'd give Anna a big fail to impress. For me the first and most important aspect of the character is that you can see details that are inherited traits of any mortal living in sunlight... things like the top of the arms have to be a different color from the bottom. The shoulders and neck will tend to be different colors from areas typically covered over and varied tan lines appear on real people. Lots of us have hair in varied places of the body like arms, pits.. even stubble can be interesting.
In my test render, Anna lacks any details in the arms. The body looks wonderful and they were careful about details around the neck but the rest of it feels sterile of any details that would be present on any other person. I put my favorite mat on a character further away for contrast and another random character with a added tattoo for fun.
It's alright... they do enough other things awesome around here.. :)
We'll have to agree to disagree there. Here's a closeup of the arm, where you can notice the small details which you otherwise lose from a distance. Of particular note are the faint, but very visible veins. The specularity maps adds excellent skin detail and there's a few darker spots here and there.
Not everyone has a tan, and I really hate textures with baked-on highlights like that unless it's an optional extra. It's a lot more work to remove something you don't want than it is to add something you do want. Things like tan lines can be easily done either in post or using the layered image editor.
A lot, and I mean a LOT of texture packs simply use a merchant resource, with a few slapped-on filters and freckles. I have fairly high standards when it comes to texture packs, which is why the majority of kids textures have left me feeling dejected on more than a few occasions.
Recent offerings are looking great though, and so far I've been mightily pleased with the elite sets for both Michael and Vicky.
+1
In this day and age, 'baked' specularity/shadows/etc, tan lines, even eyebrows have NO PLACE being sold as primary/only features of a skin texture. Layered options...fine. But as OPTIONS. The same goes with 'colors not found in nature' for around the eyes, lips, etc...the base lip color should not look like it came from Chernobyl or the local blood bank.
+1
In this day and age, 'baked' specularity/shadows/etc, tan lines, even eyebrows have NO PLACE being sold as primary/only features of a skin texture. Layered options...fine. But as OPTIONS. The same goes with 'colors not found in nature' for around the eyes, lips, etc...the base lip color should not look like it came from Chernobyl or the local blood bank.
Yes, I've heard the 'layered option' argument many times and for me, I don't prefer it since it slows everything down. The more layers you have, the more likely you are to crash your project or have the odd disappearing mat trick which is always a favorite of mine... I've even incorporated it into my art work.
I get that all you old school people think layers is the way and thats why I do all my character shopping at the other pages, not Daz.
Oh, I"m still a platinum club member... I can't resist all the really great low cost items that Daz does continue to crank out and I still admire there base work but lets face it.. The reason they don't make really big promo pictures like the competition is because the bar is a lot lower since most of the characters you guys are getting are just what you want.
What a laugh...seriously, 'old school'.
Baking is what HAD to be done in the early versions of Poser/DS in order to have ANY kind of effects. It's only done in game models so everything is in one file (and yeah, it does cut down some on light calculations, but low-res meshes with normal/bump/displacement are a much bigger time saver).
When you have 'baked on' crap, unless you are doing everything EXACTLY the same way as the vendor who set it up did, then it will NEVER look good...
Change the lighting...the 'look' goes out the window.
Baking is the old-school way of making things look better. What it basically means is that the highlights are all drawn onto the textures. This was fine back in the day when we had very simplistic lighting options, but now that we have specular maps, bump and displacements, normal mapping and higher resolution figures it's moved to the wayside.
Baking is still a technique used in video games where you need to minimize the amount of overhead to keep frames running at a high point. One important thing to understand about this is that it works because in those games the lighting often remains constant. In newer engines where the lighting is more dynamic there are two techniques employed. One of which is to use multiple baked versions of an area and cunning blending to make it appear seamless, the other throws all of that out of the window and uses more modern techniques which have more accurate lighting calculations.
Layers will not have an impact on your render time. If you're getting crashes using the LIE then that is another issue, and one which could be addressed by making a bug report. I myself have never had any major issues using it so far, but it's a slightly more advanced technique which takes some getting used to.
As for 'disappearing materials' the most common cause is when you've used the LIE but deleted the original skin layer. I've heard it can also be caused by a lack of system RAM, but even prior to upgrading my PC I have never encountered this problem to date.
Agree with mjc1016 and HeraldofFire
I look forward to learning more about multiple layers and the visual benefits are obvious. Baked in is if you lack system requirements to handle it or are looking to use in video games where action is more important than subtle skin tones which may slow down the program.
First off, why post a picture of a fake looking cartoon arm? Go look at your arm and real skin and real people and you might realize just how far removed from reality that is.
It doesn't matter that "everyone" has a tan or not.. My god, why do you think we bother to name characters? Because they all suppose to look like different people.
To me its interesting because I haven't bought any of my recent characters from DAZ and they are all a dramatic improvement because of the lack of notoriously low standards ... where guys like you show me pictures of blank arms and say, "look how real it is" when it looks like it came from the days of v3.
I agree that too many people use merchant resources to make characters which is a very unique art that should be based on real people and not your bland computerized one tone fits all cartoons. Its no wonder most people can't do great looking character maps.. they're too busy looking back at the history of character making instead of creating history making characters.
I think what you're comparing things to are the promo renders which are often done under optimal lighting conditions. It's only natural that someone selling a character will want to show off the figure to the best of their ability. Your earlier thread entitled "I can fool you" showed you plenty of near photoreal images done in 3D rendering software. All of which used specular and bump maps.
Realism is more than slapping a texture on a figure and putting her in front of a camera. There are countless subtle nuances which need to be addressed to get past the uncanny valley. However, I feel the elite textures are a strong step in the right direction.
+1
So, what are the subtle things you are looking for in the many layers of a skin texture?
I am looking to make one for sale. I will be using several merchant resources and photos of my own but I want to include options that make sure to preserve realism and I want to avoid baking in things that frankly don't need to be baked in. Perhaps tan lines as options but not as the base.
What would help prompt your decision to buy a character not only for shape but texture?
+1
So, what are the subtle things you are looking for in the many layers of a skin texture?
I am looking to make one for sale. I will be using several merchant resources and photos of my own but I want to include options that make sure to preserve realism and I want to avoid baking in things that frankly don't need to be baked in. Perhaps tan lines as options but not as the base.
What would help prompt your decision to buy a character not only for shape but texture?
If you want options.. how about micro hair or religious markings? The red dot on the forehead for Hindi people is fairly common.. Oh, you could do a character that isn't white or asian like 90 of the characters released by DAZ.
The thing that gets me is that even on places like the arms you have several different colors of skin on a person.. one for the top, one for the bottom, another for the palm side of the hand and another for the nails.. the devil really is in the details when you get into creating a realistic human skin to place on the mesh.
Tattoos are always good options. My new favorite is this one that was made at my request, "Amore"
I think what you're comparing things to are the promo renders which are often done under optimal lighting conditions. It's only natural that someone selling a character will want to show off the figure to the best of their ability. Your earlier thread entitled "I can fool you" showed you plenty of near photoreal images done in 3D rendering software. All of which used specular and bump maps.
Realism is more than slapping a texture on a figure and putting her in front of a camera. There are countless subtle nuances which need to be addressed to get past the uncanny valley. However, I feel the elite textures are a strong step in the right direction.
You keep speaking about certain characters as if they are "elite" when that standard is reserved for ones in the past that were scanned people... a process that has yet to be done for the new HD line and the very thing I've been arguing for, you argue as if it already exist.... it doesn't for the record.. There is no "Elite" HD character based on a scan of a real person.
You get bogged down in "baked in" details as if people don't actually have them and talk about layers as if there is an optional instant tan for any character in the Genesis 2 line... in short, your not talking about any product currently being offered.
Even if you could, tan lines are very specific to individuals. Then we have to talk about pours, wrinkles, hair and veins, already before you even get into tattoos, you would be talking of about 4 or 5 different layers just to make a realistic skin... let's not forget the tan has to match up with the skin type... can't have a overly red tan on a person with Hispanic or swarthy skin.. layers simply won't work to make a realist person.
To me you've talked plenty about other peoples works and what you think is right and you've stated that 'baked in' will 'NEVER' be good for you and with that I agree.. you can't do it because you don't appreciate simplicity.. you want to make something more complicated so you can feel superior and go around talking about what you can do that nobody else can do and I want something simple that anybody can click and use... clearly our philosophies are the opposite ends of the spectrum and I'll continue to hope somebody makes a great character mat for DAZ and until then ... I'll continue to buy my characters from the competition.
As for skins based on scans, there are dozens. In fact many of the ones you see on the Daz store were made using photographs of real people. There are also merchant resources available which include photographs along with their skin layouts for editing purposes.
Now, that's not to say that these photo-based textures are suitable for everyone. If yours is the sort of artwork which benefits more from the baked textures, then that's entirely your prerogative. I'm not trying to sell you anything after all. I was, however, trying to expand your horizons a little to help you understand why these extra settings are so vital in realism.
Art is individual. Everyone has their own particular tastes and preferences. You and I might be opposites, but that doesn't mean we have to be opposition.