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Hi,
Well, it's because of the negative effect known as uncanny valley. If you do what you suggest, there are two possibilities: either you do it insanely realistic (so everyone asks: is this really a computer render?) or you don't do it at all. The video you suggest shows something that could be done 15 years ago. It's nothing special, really.
So, most of the time, the uncanny valley is something you don't want to produce (in movies, showreels, etc.). In video games, however, it's quite important. You don't want to kill real people, do you? So, there must be some kind of uncanny valley. If (killer) games gets too realistic, there is a strange feeling to it.
Best wishes,
Thomas
Please correct me if I am misinterpreting you Thomas, but are you suggesting that every figure must either be a toon or ultrarealistic, otherwise thay will fall into the "uncanny valley" category, and creep everyone out?
I have looked up "uncanny valley" and looked at all the examples. Virtually all of the example I saw were odd-looking because they were driven by an unusual context (robots, etc) I don't believe that the level of realism I am looking for in figure animation falls into that category. But feel free to correct me, as you have much greater experience here than I do.
BTW - your mechanical and toon animations were very well done!
UB, Sounds kewl... except for the line in quotes which suggests a negative vibe. IMO this should not contain any negativity At All... instead I'd rather have the old charater say "I'm one of the original programmers of the incredible Carrara. Come see what can be done with it today."
Just my 2 cents.
Hi John,
In submitting this idea, I expected to receive some flack.
It seems that the most common new question to the forum, week after week, in an inquiry into the health of Carrara. I choose to not avoid the issue, but to instead embrace it as a battle cry.
I understand... how about "Some folks think Carrara is getting old. Well let's just go see for ourselves."
It was "past it's prime" that just didn't sound good at all.
Hi,
Thanks alot.
Kind of, yes. There are a lot of theories to it. When I graduated 8 years ago, I also had to consider it in my thesis. In fact, every 3d animator dealing with characters must know it. Pixar and Dreamworks never do it (= they produce toon animations) that's why these movies are really successful. Others tried, but mostly failed (Final Fantasy, Beowulf). However, it seems that the biggest negative effect is seen, when - for example - the whole human is rendered ultra realistic, but then moves like a robot or has no facial expressions. This will result in a high cognitive dissonance in your brain. It's like a bodybuilder in front of you that suddenly talks like a tiny girl. Your brain senses that something does not fit
So, if you do realistic humans, everything else must be realistic too (facial expression, movement, clothing, etc.). But it's also true for toon animations. If you do motion capture and apply these to a toon figure, your brain will also notice that something isn't right. Most of time, realistic motions aren't really compatible with toon animations.
Best wishes,
Thomas
Carrara is only behind in importing the latest DAZ content.
It still runs rings around D|S importing other stuff like FBX and dae from other apps.
All those cool gaming assets, for Unity, Unreal etc, some may need a bit of fixing mostly moving the root node and translating hips etc but try putting them in D|S if you want to see a mess!!!
no uncanny valley, only applause here:
Then I'm assuming that you have a difficult time listening to some of the comments on this forum.
The point was to paint a rather bleak picture, then strongly refute it.
I like to show big contrasts. Playing it safe in the middle is not the way to go, IMO.
I think that right now, Carrara needs something more than the same old highlight reel. I don't expect everyone to agree.
If I had the chops, I would simply make my own reel, as several artists here have already done (and bravo to them for their efforts). Instead, I'm stuck with making suggestions.
There is a competing theory to the uncanny valley. In this other communication theory, there are communication markers to help someone put subsequent infomation in context. Examples include signals to not take a statement too seriously. One use of these signals is to help us to avoid causing offense - which face-to-face can be done wth facial expressons or tone of voice. On the other hand, when texting on a phone, expression and tone of voice are absent, so one theory is that 'LOL' has emerged not to signal laughter, but instead to make sure that the person reading the text message does not take something too harshly. In communication theory, there are also signals for other purposes.
In the context of storytelling, another set of signals tell the audience to not worry about whether something is realistic (suspension of disbelief). In literature, examples include phrases such as "it was a dark and stormy night," and "once upon a time." They may be cliche, but they can perform a very useful purpose. Lack of realism after that is not the main problem if the audience is lost. The reader has been told that unreal things are coming. Not necessarily toonish. Horror stories might just have a a crazy hotel manager who dresses like his dead mother. That could be true - it is not unreal in a toonish sense - but it is unreal in the sense that it is made-up. It is fiction. After the appropriate signal, the reader expects horror or fantasy or whatever, and might be disappointed if unreal things do not follow! They don't have to be toonish - unless the concept of toonish is expanded quite a bit.
In this alternative theory of communication, a storyeller does not face a dichotomy requiring either hyper-realistic or ultra-toonish content. Rather, signal to the audience what to expect, and then have a story that holds their attention. Then don't screw it up. You can tell the horror story with realistic actors, sets, and props - or you can do it with claymation, cell animation, or even the written word. You can have realistic actors doing toonish things (3 Stooges poking eyes) and you can mix real and unreal together (Gene Kelly dancing with Tom and Jerry). But you have to make sure that the audience has already signed up for the ride.
On the language side of this theory, see this TED talk.
http://www.ted.com/talks/john_mcwhorter_txtng_is_killing_language_jk
RE: Real actors doing unrealistic movement. Watch the movements of Norton when he gets thrown out, and thrown out again, and thrown out again. Not very realistic, but was very successful.
.
I appreciate the detailed response. The effect is real, I do not doubt it.
However, after reading some articles on the theory - pro and con - and seeing some other responses here, I am feeling - yes feeling - that maybe context trumps everything else, and that the small level of realism I am proposing would not cause a negative effect if presented in the proper context.
It's also apparent that reactions to realism vary across a wide population. Personally, when I saw what was available with M4 (and you said that was not so special), I got excited.
As impressive as hard surfaces and particle effects are, I would like to see more realistic characters in the mix.
Oooh Nooo... I've no problem reading any comments in any thread in the Forums here.
Thanks for expaining "big contrasts"... I now understand and like your idea even more than before... it's finally sinking in. :) Please pardon that little editor living in my brain... he gets out of hand now and again. :)
Hi,
It's plain overacting, not unrealistic. There are a lot of differences between toon and realistic motion, but I cannot see one of the differences there. One would be, for example, pose to pose in toon. Realistic motion isn't pose to pose; there are a lot of minor motions (expressions, hand movement, eye movement) you see in human-like motion. Do the scene within Carrara or DAZ with realistic looking persons and we can clearly see,
Your whole paragraphs written above in your thread aren't incorrect, but it has nothing to do with the uncanny valley :) / Uncanny valley is, when - for example - realistic looking people and unrealistic looking movement comes together.
I understand. Problem is, unrealistic movement and realistic looking characters haven't been a problem a decade ago. So, if you want to prove, Carrara is still an alternative, then this is IMHO the wrong path
/ Cool would be something like this: 
But this is just my opinion
Best wishes,
Thomas
IMHO, it was not over acting, unless you simply mean it was exaggerated movement. But that is the point - the movement was not realistic, but it was embraced by audiences.
Art Carney Emmy awards.
Primetime Emmy Awards
Primetime Emmy
Where Pigeons Go to Die (1990)
For playing "Da".
Primetime Emmy
The Cavanaughs (1986)
For playing "James 'Weasel' Cavanaugh". For episode "He Ain't Heavy".
Primetime Emmy
Terrible Joe Moran (1984)
For playing "Tony".
Primetime Emmy
Katherine (1975)
For playing: "Thornton Alman".
Primetime Emmy
The Jackie Gleason Show (1966)
For his performances on the show. Tied with Pat Paulsen
Primetime Emmy
The Jackie Gleason Show (1966)
Primetime Emmy
The Jackie Gleason Show (1966)
For episode "The Adoption".
Primetime Emmy
The Jackie Gleason Show (1952)
Primetime Emmy
The Honeymooners (1955)
Primetime Emmy
Primetime Emmy
The Jackie Gleason Show (1952)
Primetime Emmy
Best Series Supporting Actor
The Jackie Gleason Show (1952)
I have to admit, I never expected such firm resistance to my desire for seeing more real-looking characters in a Carrara reel.
I don't much care if it is or isn't cutting-edge. I just want to see more characters - humans, creatures, etc.. For me, that is clearly what is missing from Carrara reels in the past.
And further, I would like to see the reel framed as a mini-story (yes, with characters!). There is another thread here which extolls - ad nauseum - the importance of story over special effects.
The idea is to differentiate Carrara from the rest by giving it some attitude, basically saying "We ain't dead by a long shot."
If the Carrara animators want to generate the same old special effects highlight reel, I suspect that they will get the same old result.
I certainly agree with you on that one!
However, if that degree of realism is not possible in Carrara (?), I still am impressed by the M4 example I linked to earlier. For God's sake - that was "ancient" M4!!!
In the same light. I think we need to ask, to whom is this proposed new Carrara highlight reel intended? I doubt that Pixar artists will be swayed at all. On the other hand, budding animators and artists, especially those on a limited budget (like most of us) may be persuaded to give Carrara another look. And that is the lion's share of the market.
agreed with UB
about the Chris Jones' remarkable character I think 80/90% is due to artist (especially modelling and texturing), only 10/20% to software(s); pure carraraists are very few all over the world to get such results
it was an amazing video , though. I think it said in the description that it was created in lightwave not carrara, so that is a kind of a big difference this is from the video description. quote" Work in progress, hand-made with Lightwave, Sculptris and Krita, composited with Davinci Resolve Lite. Music by me. http://www.chrisj.com.au"
I don't use carrara just daz . I was going to buyit awhile ago when it was 80% off . but reading the complaints of lack of support I just stuck with daz . But i'm not looking for realisim or life like animations either . even my iRAY animations tend to be cartoonish like this one i did recently
Hi,
Once again, this is not uncanny valley. Uncanny valley is something 3D artists or robot constructors have to consider. If you have a movie, even with unrealistic movement (as you say), it cannot be uncanny valley. No filmmaker has to consider uncanny valley; it's only possible if you try to replicate a human being (in the computer).
A reel is there for highlighting great features in the software. At least in my opinion :)
If you show these features, every 3d artist will know that it is dead. Because these features (human with unrealistic movement) have been used 15 years ago.
100% agreed to this opinion. If you think that 15 year old zombies will tell the story and attract animators, then this is the way to go
/ In my opinion, this will lead to less animators using Carrara, not more. But this is only my opinion, and there are times, my opinion was wrong - but sometimes, it's right 
Agreed.
Best wishes,
Thomas
The UB's video is very impressive, and if we have a man here very capable to do that: Magaremoto and with Carrara please!
The only difference is that we are not pro in 3D.
All the realizes I have seen from the "PRO's" were always based on toons characters, it's too laborious and expensive to build an compleete film with ultra realistics characters.
I think that shall be for the next generation, but DAZ3D is not ready for now, in my opinion.
Then in your view, I guess that I am not a 3D artist.
Less animators using Carrara? You mean, exactly like the direction it is going in right now?
I can't be certain, beyond all doubt, that my approach will improve the situation. But I am absolutely sure that the way to go is not "more of the same."
Hi,
Well, of course. I meant those doing it on a professional basis, to get their dealy bread...
Yes, it's ok. I might be wrong. I just don't share your opinion, but this happens in life
Best wishes,
Thomas
thank you Dudu, unfortunately I'm not as skilled as mr. Jones but I'm pretty sure he could succeed the same way within carrara, maybe micro fur could be a mess but all the rest should be achievable for a talented guy like him. About ultra realism it all depends on setting up materials correctly, having right maps and photo references
here's another impressive video about Emily
As I said earlier, I don't think we are PRIMARILY targeting pros like those who work for Pixar, and who are few in number. We ARE targeting semi-pros and enthusiasts, who number in the thousands.
But even so, I don't argee that ALL pro's who "earn their bread" with 3D are dismissive or fearful of depicting realism just a shade below perfect. You said that "If you show these features, every 3d artist will know that it is dead." That's a blanket statement. I can't claim to know the actual percentages, but I strongly doubt that every 3D artist agrees with you.
So we may have to disagree here. Do you disagree with the story idea as well? If the intro was made with toon figures instead, would it be more acceptable?
Ha! I'm not offended. We both like Carrara. But it's always a battle getting well-meaning folks with different perspectives to agree on specifics. The important thing, I think, is to present ideas for discussion, and to advocate in the clearest possible way for our positions.
Speaking of that, you have expended quite a bit of effort in an attempt to shoot down my request for lifelike characters. What EXACTLY do you propose instead?
Can't, too busy playing Uncharted 4 Online
Man, you guys should start a boxing ring thread and have at your differences in there... both sets of idealisms have been noted and are going to be considered... trust me!
In truth, I was being kinda silly. I really don't mind as long as nobody gets hurt! ;)
Realism certainly has its place, and Carrara can certainly achieve realism. There are different interpretations as to what should and what shouldn't be included - and I actually agree with both sides of the coin in their respective ways.
Thomas' reel was done for His stuff... he wasn't trying to say that this is what this Carrara reel should be, but it does offer some great examples and inspiration, and his animations truly are a step in the right direction for showing what can be done... it's gorgeous. Do we also want to show more stuff too? Absolutely!
Just a couple of cents, I guess
Hi,
Well, ok. Here, you are right. There are indeed some strange 3D artists that try to do it over and over again. And they fail over and over again. Tarzan, which has been produced in Germany, has been a total flop. If you have a look at the trailer, you know why. Watch the trailer at 0:05. There is a kid, looking not afraid, but like Zombie who is about to eat his mother alive! At 1:18, there is no expression at all in the face
Thinking about it, I think it's more the producers than the 3d artists who are to blame. I think, the artists just need money and take the job. Being a freelancer myself, I know that most clients wants to have it the way they think it's best - even if the freelancers say that it won't work!
Here's another article: http://oxfordstudent.com/2011/04/07/into-the-uncanny-valley/
If you want realism, don't do close shots to the face, at least not animations. Photos should be ok. Do some animations, where you import aniblocks or bvhs to show, how you can easily move characters through the scene. Do some cloth simulations, hair simulations... that's what I would do
That's true. Great that we can have a discussion without boxing
Best wishes,
Thomas
Hi Thomas,
Thanks for specific examples. That was helpful. Now I know how better to respond.
For me, there are a couple of layers here to your argument.
The first layer, is that "uncanny valley" is too often used as a scapegoat for every semi-realistic animation failure. And for some in the 3d community, I suspect that it has become a hardened, unquestionable rule. To me, it is not a rule, but simply another factor to consider.
Even the article you referenced had to admit that other, more critical facters were in play which led to some animated films being relatively unsuccessful.
Here are some quotes:
"That said, comparing The Incredibles to The Polar Express seems a somewhat futile practice in this instance as visual differences are the least of the latter’s worries. The Incredibles succeeded both critically and financially because of a multitude of factors. These factors include its outstanding pedigree, writing and production values. The Polar Express failed on an artistic level to be anything more than average because its script was lacklustre, its art design way too obvious (although it did get the job done) and overall it just displayed a dearth of that something special that Disney/Pixar seem to bring to all of their films."
"Mars Needs Moms isn’t flopping all over the Box Office floor like a fish out of water because of the Uncanny Valley. The film is generally misguided and misjudged and this extends to its aspirations to photo realism."
On the Tarzan movie, I looked at your specific examples of woodenness You said, "If you have a look at the trailer, you know why. Watch the trailer at 0:05. There is a kid, looking not afraid, but like Zombie who is about to eat his mother alive! At 1:18, there is no expression at all in the face."
I looked closely are your examples. Zombie? No expression at all? Are you sure that you got the timing numbers right? Because, I saw nothing to justify such extreme criticism.
Here are some quotes about the Tarzan movie:
"All of this feels awfully simplistic, like a 10-minute cartoon sketch bloated into a full-length movie, and one that's backed by an over-explanatory voiceover that can sometimes sound awkward."
"Here's a muddled and dull new family film about Tarzan, who in keeping with tradition is as clean-shaven and all-over hairless as any male stripper."
"Having trashed one icon in The Legend Of Hercules, Kellan Lutz shafts another with vocals admittedly well-suited to the muscle-bound mannequin. What really sabotages Reinhard Klooss’ film, though, is a subplot involving a meteorite-derived power source."
In short, the Tarzam movie had multiple weaknesses.
The second layer, is the idea that including lifelike animated characters will somehow sabotage a highlight reel. Even if you are somewhat right about uncanny valley, this is an apples and oranges situation. We are not making a full-length motion picture here. It's not even an animated short. It is a highlight reel!!
In the context of a highlight reel, you can show as much realism as you want. Everyone understands what you are doing, and nobody (well almost nobody
) will spend any time criticising the character's lack of emotions, because, there is no attempt at character development here It is not a movie, it is a highlight reel!
Look at the Autodesk reel posted by Dart in the opening post. At :52 and 1:20 are great examples of character realism (and there are others in that reel as well).
Ditto the Cinema 4D reel, at 2:27.
Thanks for giving your specific preferences.
I just want to see less hard surfaces and more characters, however they are presented, And that is just a feeling. But if I need intellectual reasons, I point to the unique position that Carrara occupies in the 3D world. Like many software suites, it provides you the ability to render, model, paint, and animate. But Carrara can also directly import Daz figures. And that needs to be more heavily promoted.
Others have said it better than me:
"It is a wonderful fusion between a full featured 3D suite PLUS the ability to use an extensive library of characters and other pre-made content." PhilW
"Struggling with 3D studio for years, on 86's through 486's, taught me to have patience. but the frustration of having no "ready made human figures" was becoming unbearable. In a search for Human models, I found Daz3D, and by happy accident, I found Carrara." 3DAGE
"Are there other applications that are better than Carrara for landscapes? Yes
Are there other applications that are better than Carrara for modeling? Yes
Are there other applications that are better than Carrara for animation? Yes
Are there other applications that are better than Carrara for rendering? Possibly, but the Octane Render plugin for Carrara has made it very competitive again.
Are there other general purpose applications that are better than Carrara? Yes
But here is the one question that keeps me using Carrara ....... and DAZ 3D figures/content!
Are there other applications that can do all of the above, and easily consume DAZ 3d content including everything from the original Vicky and Mike figures to Genesis 2 like Carrara can? NO!" DustRider
I rest my case.
Agreed!
That, and perhaps even show off some other animation features... but for the most part, I agree. However, I am very much an advocate of denying the whole "cannot" and therefore "should not" be done syndrome.
Just because there is little evidence that something can be done does not mean that one should not try. But since we're talking about a promo reel here, I agree with both sides - if we get an excellent example which leans towards proving the uncanny valley amiss... much like the above video of the very believeable face puppet animation, I think that would be an excellent inclusion to the reel.
But like Thomas says, it would be a shame to include failed attempts just for the sake of showing that we can fail in any software. I mean... just for the sake of getting people into the thing. There will be people in it... at least in the one I want to put together.
Personally, I'd like to keep away from the ultra-realistic examples I've seen of Ten24 type scans unless they've been cleverly produced to look really good - not as a great example of rendering skin, but a great example of a really good picture. But when they're just being rendered as skin examples, they tend to look dead and very creepy. Maybe if it was done where it's supposed to be creepy and turns out looking really cool? But static (motionless) people - no matter how realistic they are in every other way, just simply do NOT belong in an animation. Put the render onto a billboard commercial advertisement if we really need that person in the shot - otherwise use animated people.
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=== I've now just read UB's post above ===
=================================
Like I said above, I'm not good at accepting common nay-saying as hard rules to live by, but more like something to consider while stepping my feet wherever I decide to tinker, much like Unified Brain puts it. The fact that they keep trying to cross that uncanny valley is proof that UB and Magaremto and I are not the only ones whom feel this way. But I agree with Thomas in that we should be careful to not just throw in some not-so-great character animation just to have more footage in the reel, or just for the sake of showing something different.
For ultra-real renders, a panning still image can be used to show off how well Carrara can handle rendering high resolution figures. Even if it's something different... I think it's still very acceptable to mix stills in with animations.
HeadWax's galley has art that draws me in. I just max out the size in my monitor as much as I can and just enjoy the artistry of the (digital) paintings he's made... in awe.
Art like that doesn't need animation. But in a reel, perhaps a bit of panning or other motion is best to help pace everything together. It's a showing, not a stop and stare.We have his gallery for that - using Head Wax as an example. There are others too.
Some animations are just plain cool and are fun to include proudly even if some of the individual elements are rather simplistic. It's a matter of showing things that are impressively pleasing to the eye.
I'd love to see someone cross the uncanny vally using Carrara. I am impressed by those whom are getting really creative with their motion capture skills to map facial movements. Like they say, they still use highly skilled animators to work out the kinks. My good ol' favorite, Clone Wars, is very sculpture/toon stylized, yet the hand animators capture a lot of real emotion and realistic events, while still keeping some things stylized in the actual motions as well - which is a real gift, in my opinion, and really got me to respect those animators. Same with movies like Tangled, Impossibles, Bolt, etc., I really like how these animators can capture 'real' emotion through heavy stylization.
But if we get a really good animation of an ultra-real character doing something pleasing to the eye for a few seconds or even less... I'd be happy to use it. Just a really nicely animated wink could be really cool, for example.
In UB's example of the granny in the rocker, the same sort of feel or message could still be used in many other ways - so I'm really glad to have that inspired idea.